Money and Ns

[October]

I know a lot of people have had problems with ns and with inheritance issues.  I thought I would never have anything like that because I want nothing from my parents, but it seems I was wrong.

My dad has told my older brother that because younger brother has paid for three foreign holidays for them (each one for them to visit him; the latest for his wedding next month), they want him repaying out of their estate, before other bequests are made.  That is the gist of it, although they didn't use those words.  Part of me thinks they can do whatever they like with their money, but part of me thinks, hang on, isn't this a case of taking away from those who have nothiing in order to give more to those who have everything.

My younger brother works abroad, tax free, and has chosen his lifestyle, which is in a different league to ours.  He has a chauffeur and servants, and wants for nothing.  To me that does not need to be repaid.  Perhaps I am being selfish, though.  I know I am not normal about money.  To me, if a brother needs something I will try to provide it, and I am not interested in paying back or being paid back.  Is this because I am too selfish myself?

Bottom line I think is that the only safe thing to do with an N is not to care what they do, or when or how.  Leave them all to it.  The only thing I want from any of my family is something they do not know how to provide, next to which money is just so much scrap paper.   

So, not sure what I think about this really.  It looks like rationalising giving more to the favourite, at the expense of the black sheep (moi).  If we are going to have a credit/debit account before sorting the bequests, then what else will they include? And why does this feel like a threat?

Somewhere within a voice is saying 'run!! run!!'.   

[bliz1]

(Anybody know why I cant sign in under my regular name?  It keeps saying it is taken....yeah by me!!!)

Anyway, you may remember that my father and sometiems my mother have given large chunks of money to my brothers over the years, but when I asked for any assistance I was refused.  It came to a head again when they gave one brother $200,000 against their estate, for a new business venture.  I calmly wrote down my feelings about this and "presented " it to both parents.  They didnt like to hear it, but I believe it accomplished my purpose.  A side benefit was Mom has offered to help me now on various occasions, like a more aggressive program to remodel the house.  

I guess Dad didnt get it, but he is a mysoginist, whether he knows it or not.  THe oldest brohter who works with him, has successfully siphoned money off of him for years, plus a salary for doing very little, cars, insurance, gas cards etc.  I wondered in my "presentation" what it was about females and specifically me, that Dad thought didnt deserve the same helping hand he extends to the boys.  I have made my own way in life however, which is very gratifying. I had hoped to put to rest my question "if love equals money, what does that say about me in my father's eyes?"

[bunny]

October,

My feeling is that your parents are kissing up to your wealthy brother to get more supplies out of him. It's all about sucking up to him.

bunny

[daylily]

Hi October,

Why, all of a sudden, do your parents feel the need to "repay" your brother?  That sounds rather odd, when I would suppose from what you've written that it didn't come up at the time of each vacation--that no promises of "repayment" were expected or offered.

Unless your brother expects to be repaid, and this has been a big issue between him and your parents, it sounds like your parents are just trying to cause trouble.  Three reasons occur to me:  1) They are uncomfortable accepting the gifts and are rationalizing it to themselves by saying that they'll pay it back; 2) They're psychologically "disinheriting" your brother by cancelling out his generosity; or 3) They want to stir things up among the siblings by showing favoritism.  Truthfully, they didn't have to "pay him back" outside of other bequests, and they certainly didn't have to let everybody know about their intention.  They could have simply changed their will to make a certain bequest to your brother in "repayment" and then divide the residue of the estate equally.  But isn't that always the way?  To create the maximum unrest and conflict, without actually accomplishing the objective?

Sigh.

I suppose all you can do is register your feelings of hurt and bewilderment, then shrug and say, "It's your money.  Do whatever you want."  Similarly, if and when the time comes, you can say to your brother that he isn't really entitled to that additional bequest and he knows it.  What he does or doesn't do then is up to him.  It seems to me that the most powerful weapon any of us has against N's is sincere indifference.  It drives them absolutely bonkers not to achieve the desired effect of showing their power and becoming the center of attention.

Sorry you have to deal with this.

best,
daylily 

[Stormchild]

Hi bliz

You can't sign in as a guest using your actual screen name. If you're trying to do that, it won't work... that's why on the older board you'd see us as 'so and so guesting' if we didn't sign in but wanted to post. I think this is intended to prevent "onscreen identity theft", basically.

if the software won't let you sign in as yourself, that's a different problem and I'm not sure what the fix is, you'd need to check with the Doc.

Hope this helps

[Plucky]

Hi October,
my advice would be:  let it go.  You know intellectually that it is best not to want anything from your parents.  Now live that idea and don't let it get to you.  You know that to want anything from an N is to hand that person the power to hurt you.  Can you survive without the money from your parents?  Remember that money never comes all by itself.  It always has something attached to it, and in your case, that is the attitude and control and judgement of your parents.

My mother recently announced that she was going to leave me extra money to cover an amount that my sister owes me.  My sister has always taken the stance that I am getting extra help from my mother (not true) and had done something very unfair with my late father's assets to 'make up for' it.  She does need the money more than I do, and if she had been upfront about it, I would have been happy to let her profit more.  But she lied and hid and it made me feel doubly victimized, not only by my father who had announced openly that he wanted to leave my sister everything (but neglected to make a will) and then by my sister, who lived 2 hours away by car but didn't lift a finger to be with him while he was dying.  That was left to me,who had to fly from overseas and spend a fortune to care for a man who ignored me my entire life and told people I did not even exist, that he had only one daughter.  But I digress.

I told my mother that if she did that, she would just cause conflict between me and my only close relative, and that I did not want her to do it. I told her that money was not more important than family to me.   I think this put an end to it.

But from my sister's point of view, she would have thought I was on board with it, and even initiated it.  Because, instead of seeing my mother as the one fomenting division between us two siblings, she sees me as the favorite one that benefits.  This is not true, at all.  So not only do I have my N mom to deal with, I have a sister that hates me and blames me for the N mom's actions.  I have no family.  

I guess my point, besides venting, is, don't let your parents destroy any relationship you could have with your brother. People are successful for different reasons.  I am more financially successful than my sister, but that is mainly because I knew from an early age that no one was going to bail me out if I was not.  I went into a profession that was not really happy for me, in order to have that security.  I worked my way through school and took on lots of debt, and scrimped and planned and saved to make it.  I worked my butt off until I fell apart from all the issues and stress I had been sweeping under the carpet.  And I resent the fact that my sister, who is pretty much relaxed about money in a way I could never be, never had that stress because my father, while he was alive, was always there to help her and give her support I never had.  And now she hates me for having more money and expects me to give her money and pay her trips and feels justified in doing me out of the little my father left!  Before I finally found out, I had actually spent twice what I had gotten on the trip and the stay to look after him!  And I felt so betrayed, like he considered me a nonentity and she wanted to continue that by making sure that I got nothing from him, because it was 'what he wanted' .  I then put my foot down and asked, not for the thousands she had basically stolen from me, but only for the plane fare I paid for her to come visit us, when she swore she could not afford to come see my children, while at the same time she was collecting the money that should have been shared with me.  (She showed up with all new clothes and an armful of books bought at the airport.  She told me about all the places she had eaten out.  I sat there listening in my old clothes among my used books with leftovers in my stomach.  Even then it was my husband who basically said that she was taking advantage of us.  I still didn't see it.)  That was a couple of years ago and I have yet to get anything.

Don't blame your brother for what your parents said.  He may not even know about it, or may just not want to address it before they are dead.  Just as you feel your brother has chosen his lifestyle, he might feel that you have chosen yours.  Or he may also equate love wth money and think that if your parents are uneven with their bequest, that it would be a slap in the face to him.  Need may not enter into the equation for him or for your parents, even though it is a legitimate concern.    

I know this may not be what you want to hear.  I guess my main message is, don't let your parents drive a wedge between you and your brother.  He must have worked hard for his independence, and gone to live halfway around the world, for some reason.  Try not to automatically see him as your enemy, no matter what your parents do or say.
Plucky

[miss piggy]

Hi October,

I had similar thoughts listed above.  Your parents are probably jealous of your rich brother and don't want to feel Less Than your brother.  So they want to pay him back to even things out.  But not at their expense, so they using whatever has been set aside for someone else.  Ns are so great at using other people's money.  (One N I know will give things she got for free as gifts to others.  And let you know how special she is to get it for free from someone else!)  They probably want to feel equal to, not beholden to, your brother.  And suck up to him too.

The other thought that occurred to me is that Ns seem to have a need to get rid of that guilt.  They don't really listen to that small voice that says "something's wrong here with what I am doing" so they tell someone else what they are doing so that person can react from OUTSIDE of them.  Then they can disown the niggly uncomfortable baby conscientious thought they had that might have stopped them from doing what they want to do.  My childish NFIL would call my H for "permission" to dip into the kids' trust funds (from their mother's separate estate) for totally unnecessary expenses.  Of course my H would ask "what are you thinking?  I don't think so."  And he would get mad just like a little baby brother.  My H has to draw a picture called "How would you feel if your dad..." and only then does he get it. 

Hang in there, MP

[d'smom]

october said:
Bottom line I think is that the only safe thing to do with an N is not to care what they do, or when or how.  Leave them all to it.  The only thing I want from any of my family is something they do not know how to provide



october i think you have it here. i think these people pretty much move through life in a series of events designed to cause drama and trouble for others.  i think thats all they see life as.  childhood.... eating..... discipline.... schooling..... relationships..... ... kids...... family.... marriage..... their kids jobs/spouse/life choice/..... their failing health.... finally, inheritance.

all of those events are simply seen one after the other as new  opportunities which which to manipulate others, coming in a nice little series for them. your parents have now realised that they are at the time of life to start using inheritance as their weapon of choice, and are starting right in.

i truly think to the greatest degree possible, simply not caring in the least what they do, is really the best route to take for mental health. when they are your family, or are holding hostage something you truly desire, this is harder and they know it. but.... money.... to me thats a shoo-in.   who needs money over peace of mind??????   ive been legally disowned from the will since i was 18 and happy for it. they wont be able to hold any money over -my- head. (only my daughters).

i hope you can continue not giving a crap and hold your head up high as an independent woman.
d's mom

[bliz1]

Thanks Stormchild,
For some reason, lately, when I try to reply, it will not let me reply as Bliz.  Hence Bliz1.

[wokeupatlast]

My N mother tore up the will she and my father had made which pretty much left things equally to my sister and myself.  She told me "it wasn't legal anyway."  Then she left all of her money to my sister who is the good child and basically disinherited me.  It was hurtful but now that I know more about the disorder I can at least understand that money is a BIG control issue.  Since my sister is also an N, it won't give her a guilty conscience so it works out well for the both of them.

I think my father anticipated this.  Just before he died he told me: you know, things have never been fair in this family.  I feel badly that the money was all earned by him (he paid the mortgages on the two houses they owned and all the bills while my mother used her money as fun money.)  As long as he was alive he used to keep things as fair as possible in the family and wouldn't let issues escalate to the point where family members were estranged.  But since he is gone, my mother has managed to split the family apart so that my sister and I do not even talk anymore, and I barely speak to my mother.

I do not know what goes on in the minds of the Ns that money is more important or maybe the equivalent of love.

[daylily]

There's a very sad (and, to many of us, very familiar) story about this issue on the front page of today's Washington Post.  It's about how a family has been torn apart over the division of victim's compensation in the aftermath of September 11.  You can access it online, but you'll have to register at washingtonpost.com.

I think money does strange things to people.  It becomes a way to speak the unspeakable.  My aunt engineered the disinheriting of my father.  After my grandmother died, my brother, who is a lawyer, looked up the will.  It was changed during the time my father lay dying in the hospital.  My aunt hated my father because she believed that he "got everything" in the family as he was the only one to receive any sort of higher education.  What she conveniently forgot was that my dad finished college in three years because that was all the time he had in GI benefits, and he paid board to his parents while he did it.

At any rate, my aunt's resentment simmered for 40 years, until she saw an opportunity.  When it became clear that my father would die, she pounced.  She got her mother to change the will before my father was even dead.  I sometimes wonder how my grandmother could have had the courage to look at her only son in his coffin, knowing what she had done.  Needless to say, we are all dead to my father's family.

Ah, well.

daylily

[October]

Thanks for all the replies.  I was amazed how many people had taken the trouble to answer this one.

One of the comments that resonated in particular was about 'enough'.  To an N there is never enough love, and what little there is has to be rationed. For this reason they see the birth of a sibling or a child or grandchild as competition to be fought off.

I think my parents view of money parallels this.  My older brother and I are perfectly self sufficient, and have been for years.  My parents give me nothing, even though I am not working.  Not a penny.  My younger brother used to help out, but that stopped two years ago, when he thought he had helped enough.  Before that he was very generous, in a spasmodic kind of way.  But he did help me.  He told me then that he did not expect to be repaid, and I told him that even though he did  not expect it, I would repay him, when I sold my house.  I was going to do that last year, but delayed in the end because of several factors.

My parents accepted the holidays before, without any problem as far as I am aware.  I am not sure why this time they feel differently, unless it is because of the wedding, and they feel they should be contributing more to that.  I don't think yb feels that way, but I suppose I can understand them not being able to give him something substantial as a wedding present.

I honestly don't want anything from my parents.  But I also don't want to be treated as if what I give to my parents is not important, just because it is not expensive, if that makes any sense.  I think this is the part where I have to learn to get over it, yet again.  The value of duty and the real kind of love (the kind that tells the truth) is never going to be recognised.

I think my Nmum believes herself to be immortal, so she keeps out of all this talk, and blanks it out.  Dad is a bit more rational, and knows he is not immortal, and wants to do the right thing, as far as he can with Nmum around.  I don't think it is in our family to be unfair, just as I don't think any of us would actually argue about who gets what.  We have seen that with other extended family, and none of us would do that, I believe.

I think the suggestion of a will is a good idea, if I could get them to grasp that particular nettle.  I have a CD rom package for writing wills, so it might be worth a try giving that to dad to play with.

Meanwhile, I will settle for getting my reward in heaven.  Best way.   

I think another part of this is that when I look at my parents I do not see two people either enjoying life or even living.  I see two people basically sitting there, waiting for their lives to end.  Nmum in the house, dad mostly in the garden.

I would prefer it if they sold their house and went round the world for 3 years and spent every penny, if it meant that they learnt what life actually is all about, and found themselves part of it.  Perhaps that is why I am troubled with this.  Why sit there and plan what to do with the money once they are dead?  They already are dead.

Hope that doesn't sound too unkind.