worried about nephew

[2224Jessica]

Hi everyone,
I'm a bit worried and nervous about talking about this observation and concern that I have had for sometime.  My sister that I love very much may be crossing sexual boundaries with her 11 year old son. We have really gotten close in the last year and I've noticed things that make me feel uneasy.
These are the things that I've seen:
- She massages his buttocks when he is laying down
- they still shower together occasionally. (she admitts it and makes the excuse that she doesn't want him to be a prude)
- She makes suggestive comments to him like: Do I look sexy, and then if he doesn't give her the rsponse she wants, she says, "don't you like girls". ( he often gets annoyed by this).
- She leaves her door open when she gets dressed and doesn't mind him seeing her. (she's very attractive and sexy)
- Just last week she made him try on her bra right in front of us. ( I said to her, stop being mean) (because he looked stressed about it)
- I have seen her grab the front of his pants ( he looks uncomfortable about this)
- mum has mentioned that when he was younger, she walked in on them watching a R rated movie together. When questioned she says she doesn't want him growing up being a prude.
- seems like she favours him over her daughter
- keeps bringing up freud about the opposite sex child being sexually attracted to the opposite sex parent.
- is possesive and controlling towards her husband and both kids.

He's a sweet kid. very sensitive. He has a low self esteem and thinks he's useless and ugly. he is worried about putting on weight and he is on the thin side. His sister who is 15 has high self esteem. When I questioned my sister about why he is down on himself she says, " He just wants attention, he takes after me a guess about his low self esteem". When we are over, he cries like a baby at bed time, he cries and sulks alot. She just says he wants attention. He doesn't like being apart from his parents for very long and keeps ringing when they are out and asks when they are getting home. Doesn't like school camps because he wants to stay home. When he's stayed over our house for the night, he cries at bedtime and wants to go home.

I really don't know what to do. My hubby thinks I should talk to her about it. I am worried that I may stuff it up or make it worse. I would be willing to lose my sisters friendship in order to help my nephew. What are my options, I can't talk to my mum because she's a n and doesn't care. I know her husband will not take it seriously. I don't know what to say to my nephew. Any ideas?

[movinon]

Jessica - This is SICK.  I'm sorry, but you posted here b/c you wanted some feedback. 

What she's doing is ABUSIVE!!!!!!!!!!! and she's already screwed up this child!

CPS is investigating my stbxH b/c he is showering and sleeping w/y daughter.  If they got ahold of this information about your sister, should WOULD loose him.  I don't even think her husband would get custody b/c he KNOWS what's going on (although chooses not to see)

I'm sorry, I'm just disgusted and PISSED.

With the behaviors he is displaying, it's only a matter of time before they are reported by a teacher, school counselor, clergy, or heck, even a neighbor or neighbor's kid who comes over.  I'd bet that if the poor boy even has friends who come over, she's subjected them to some of the same sick stuff.

Get her help NOW.  Do some research on child sexual abuse and show it to your sister. Look at the effects it has on children especially.  Go to speak to someone at a abuse shelter or ask a counselor.

I have seen her grab the front of his pants ( he looks uncomfortable about this)

Well hell yes he's uncomfortable - to say the least - this is INCEST.     He needs help!  Your help.

Please help this boy.

Movinon

[Hopalong]

Oh Jessica.
I am so glad that you are the hope in your nephew's life.

No matter how hard it is, please make his hope a reality.

(Doesn't matter if he cries for her or seems to cling...that is how she has twisted him.)

He needs protection, rescue NOW, and years of therapy.

Please, please, print out the list of behaviors that you have just written to us and take it STRAIGHT to a child welfare agency.

I am sorry to say but I cannot believe that showing your sister information about the harm this does will make any difference. Because only the most appalling lack of concern for her own child's welfare would allow her to treat him as her sex toy.

She must have been very damaged too, but HE is the one who is most vulnerable now.
Thank God for you.

Hops

[write]

blimey, it never ceases to amaze me how many parents think the answer to problems is teasing!
but this is as you say also crossing healthy sexual boundaries between an adult and child.

I have a boy almost this age and he would totally freak if anyone touched him on his buttocks or privates, and state in no uncertain terms- stop it.

That's the damage of incestuous and inappropriate relationships- the child never learns that the body is their own and it's healthy to say no and take care of yourself. Embarrassment is internalisedinto shame and low self-esteem instead of making him angry with the person who is hurting him.

Your sister seems very immature.

What will you do?

[Portia]

Hiya Jessica

I’d be nervous too, I wouldn’t find it easy to post what you have done, but now I’d be giving myself a big pat on the back for being brave about telling the truth. This is what I think.

It’s okay to love your sister and feel that her behaviour is wrong. You’re not saying she’s a bad person, you’re saying her actions are wrong, yes?

I think your sister has very serious psychological problems. She is indeed crossing sexual boundaries, no doubt about that. 

All of the activities you list are for her benefit, not his. “Not a prude” is what she wants him to be, not what he wants to be.

I don’t think your talking to her will be of any benefit. You’ve told her not to be mean to him and she doesn’t stop? What about her husband – does he know that this goes on? What do you know about him in all this?
 
I would be willing to lose my sisters friendship in order to help my nephew.

Good for you. Do you want the friendship of a woman who wants to sexually stimulate her son? I wouldn’t. It doesn’t stop you being a friend to her of course, but sometimes in being friends we help people in ways that they perceive hurts them.

Jessica, this is so difficult for you. I don’t know what services are in your area (school counselling, educational psychologists etc). I doubt from your list that this is what our social services would call ‘high risk’, although there is the possibility that stuff goes on that you don’t know about. I kind of doubt that because your sister seems very immature and also open with her behaviour. She seems so humiliating and controlling.

Some people (laws?) wouldn’t consider these activities physical incest. But it sure is child abuse, with inappropriate physical stimulation and crippling humiliation.

A problem will be getting this boy to admit what’s going on and talk about it. I’m guessing he feels he loves his mom, doesn’t want to tell on her or get her in trouble and is destroying himself instead.

Can you approach anyone at his school? My view is that he needs an adult on his side to try and talk about it. Until he knows there’s a problem and it’s okay not to like what is happening, it is a difficult area I feel. But he sure needs help and fast.

What are your thoughts Jessica?

[movinon]

I'm feeling the need to apologize about my earlier reply.  Although I meant every word, I am aware at how triggered I was. 

I there's someone who doesn't know what triggered is, that was it.  It brought back memories of people molesting me as a child and no one doing anything.  It brought back memories of my mather knowing my daughter was molested in her care and not saying anything.  All these adults around and no one doing anything to help me or protect me

And recently, my guilt about how long it tool me to get my sick stbxH out of my children's lives.

I don't want you to be voiceless here.  I don't want to judge you.  I know you love your nephew and you are brave to express your concern.

Sending strength and perserverence,

Movinon

[Portia]

(((((((((Movinon))))))))) I admire your words above and want say I'm sorry for what happened to you..so much suffering...sorry now I'm getting overwhelmed. Take it easy and I'll take my own advice.

[2224Jessica]

Hi everyone,
Thankyou so much for your replies. This has been probably more difficult to deal with than my nmum. Your replies have all been wonderful as I feel so much support here. I feel like I'm going crazy with my family. I can't believe who they are. I have been struggling with this issue and it's painful to think of the effects its done to him. The more I am healing and understanding the control my mum had on me, other things seem to pop up out of the woodwork. It's like I can see clearly. I don't know where she got this behavoiur from because my mum never exposed herself or did this kind of abuse but she did control. I can't conceive how a mother(my sister) could do this. I have been thinking that I wanted her to be ok and that I had someone but in the process I saw a monster side to her.
Movinon, you are fine with your response. I really feel for your situation, you more than understand this situation. Your response was coming from a compassionate loving person and you are right, I need to help him NOW. My mother didn't do anything about the person who sexually abused my brother. In fact acted like it didn't happen. You are definately not judging me and thankyou for  your response, I needed to hear what you said more than you know.

Hopalong, you are so right she is really damaged. She got alot more damaged than me I came 8 years later. On the outside people have either sensed a dark side (a few people had said this) to her or fall in love with her outgoing nature. I can't seem to work her out but she is extremely fragile. But selfish to put her own needs first. I reckon she thinks all males like this attention. She doesn't value herself so she can't value her kids.

Write,  I'm not sure what to do. Yeah she is immature. She doesn't seem to respect herself too. She plays a victim alot. Part of me wants to believe I can reach her. She's not an N I don't think because she doesn't think shes superior she's always saying the opposite about herself. When I look at her I see a little girl who got lost and never grew up.

Portia, I'm not sure how far she has crossed boundaries, but he's not a happy boy and he's always going out of his way to please adults and get approval. I don't know what result would be acheived from reporting it as I'm not sure what they could do. Although once he hits puberty things could go from bad to worse. My thoughts before this post was to either get someone to talk to him about it or I would or my husband. He gets along well with him.
My sister I think does have phychological problems and is extremely insecure and not emotionally mature enough to be a proper parent to him. Although she was put as role as parent to my nparents. Even though she manipulates, she's not a strong person, she hardly gets angry, she's nonconfrontal, avoidant, crumbles easily. I agree he needs help fast. What do you think of this:  I think getting someone like a school counselor would be better for him to talk through this. I will research the effects of what she is doing, print it out, tell her I will not let her continue to allow him no rights over the right to have privacy, repect,a right to say no and I'm going to see to it that he has his rights. I will be on her back. Also I will tell her she needs to sort out her issues fast and her behavour towards him is disgusting and she is wrong to think that he wants that. in fact she is destroying him. I will tell her that children have rights and rights to their own bodies they don't want to be touched and treated that way and if she can't respect that I have no choice but to report her behaviour. I will tell her to to go get help for herself. I will be respectful towards her as I talk to her. I think her response to this will be a decider about what I'll do next.
Back up plan, if she disregards what I say will be war and the best person that will help this case is her mother in Law. She is a passionate woman and will make her life a living hell if I was to tell her what she's doing to her grandson. When my sister had an affair, she gave her hell for doing this.  She will go to the ends of the earth to stop this treatment. 
What do you think, I feel out of my depth but I want my nephew to be happy and heal.
Thanks everyone again for your support
Jessica

[Hopalong]

I think getting someone like a school counselor would be better for him to talk through this. I will research the effects of what she is doing, print it out, tell her I will not let her continue to allow him no rights over the right to have privacy, repect,a right to say no and I'm going to see to it that he has his rights. I will be on her back. Also I will tell her she needs to sort out her issues fast and her behavour towards him is disgusting and she is wrong to think that he wants that. in fact she is destroying him. I will tell her that children have rights and rights to their own bodies they don't want to be touched and treated that way and if she can't respect that I have no choice but to report her behaviour. I will tell her to to go get help for herself. I will be respectful towards her as I talk to her. I think her response to this will be a decider about what I'll do next.
Back up plan, if she disregards what I say will be war and the best person that will help this case is her mother in Law. She is a passionate woman and will make her life a living hell if I was to tell her what she's doing to her grandson. When my sister had an affair, she gave her hell for doing this.  She will go to the ends of the earth to stop this treatment.

Awesome, Jessica. Absolutely outstanding. You nephew is going to be saved. He is going to know that something that is not right, even if he doesn't fully understand it, has been NOTICED and that there are adults who are VOICING it's not right and STEPPING IN to protect him. This is going to make absolutely all the difference in the rest of his life. Bless you.

Only minor question I have is, how effective can overwhelmed school counselors be? I wonder if a separate child therapist might be important, if it's possible to add this to the mix. (Maybe MIL would pay for it?)

You are a champion, an enormous gift in this child's life. You can never be repaid for this.

Hops

[2224Jessica]

Thanks Hopalong,
Yeah I think I will have to look into making sure he gets the help he needs, getting a therapist aswell for him.  If my sister won't allow it, her mother in law sure as hell will make sure.
Jessica

[Moira]

Hi Jessica! How heart breaking this must be for you! My heart goes out to you. I agree with what everyone else has said about your courage and protecting your nephew. You are doing the right thing. As for your sister..I know it's horrible to start looking at your sister's behavior and try and wrap your mind around it. For me...I really don't;t care about your sister..not about what makes her tick, how she got the way she is....none of it. I care about your nephew..period. And you and how you're holding up and dealing with this. I read your description of your sister's behaviors with your nephew- and you can only talk about what you know..(.rest assured, you are aware of only the tip of the proverbial iceburg) and I come to one glaring conclusion. Your sister is s sick and she is abusing your nephew in numerous ways. She is on the slippery slope of pedophilia and i personally think she has crossed the line. I agree with , I think it was Hops?- who recommended involving child protection agency...immediately. Your sister is not a fit parent and what has already gone on has damaged your nephew big time. He needs a safe place and therapy. Your's sister's home and any contact with her is not safe. I realize it must be heart breaking to be seeing this in your sister, but you can't fix her. I totally applaud and support you  stepping in to protect your nephew- no one else seems to be and it's a wee bit mind boggling, isn't it!, that no one else in a family sees this or discusses! The old blinders! Makes me wonder- and it's really none of my business- what other abuse has gone on , is going on in your family. My thoughts and prayers are with you. You are doing the right thing. Keep posting! Hugs, Moira

[movinon]

Jessica,

Please think about plans b and c.  I had to speak to 7 people before anyone would report my husband.   It's possible that the school counselor will not report it and possible that your MIL may not do anything either.  It's appaling to believe that so many people are scared to touch this subject.

What will you do if the counselor or MIL shrinks away from it?

I agree w/ Hops that the abuse he has endured is beyond a school counselor's bag of tricks.  Use them to get it reported and get the boy some healing with a real counselor.

Still sending strength and white light,

Movinon

[darky]

i have a son that is almost 12 yrs old. i consider myself quite open with all my kids, but this just turned my stomach!
as for the excuse that she dont want him to be a prude is just weak.
what scares me is the fact she is SO open about it all. i wonder what she may try in private?
my concern for your nephew is puberty and what happens during and after. he needs to have good "normal" experiences, not this sick twisted self gratification from your sister.
((((((hugs)))))) to you, it cant be nice for you.
try to think of experiences you have had in the past, and how you may feel towards others who stood by and let the abuse happen, and how wonderful it would have been to have had someone who stuck up for you and did the right thing.   

[write]

I'm not sure what to do. Yeah she is immature. She doesn't seem to respect herself too. She plays a victim alot. Part of me wants to believe I can reach her. She's not an N I don't think because she doesn't think shes superior she's always saying the opposite about herself. When I look at her I see a little girl who got lost and never grew up.

Some parents seem to have excessive liberal ideas about nudity and sex as a reaction to 'we were told it was wrong...' or even pushing the topic because they're not wanting their child to be gay- as if you could change that anyway- but the putting a bra on him and touching and deliberately embarrassing him is horribly abusive whether or not you see it as a sex offence or incestuous.

The first thing I would do is distance myself from those behaviours and be clear with her: I think that is wrong. If she doesn't stop get up and leave. Make your reactions calmly and clearly known to her husband and the rest of the family.

You say you have just gotten close to her, so I'm guessing you don't really know each other that well before that? and haven't had a lot of open communication.

It seems to me she is showing off and acting out with you. She has also made the child needy and insecure- another thing immature parents can do to make themselves feel important and indespensible.

What is appropriate behaviour with a preschool child ( eg the bathing ) becomes abusive as the child gets towards puberty and needs to develop within his own needs not his mother's.
Privacy and dignity are basic rights but people who have been raised without those values are often ignorant of the effect they are having on the fragile beings entrusted to their care.




I've been trying to think of a book or document which can convey some of this, the need for appropriate emotional and sexual boundaries between a parent and child?