Author Topic: Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'  (Read 12197 times)


Argusina

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2004, 01:31:11 PM »
I beleive that there is almost always a reason for choosing and staying in an abusive relationship. Healthy people are not attracted to abusive individuals nor do they stay long. However that does NOT mean that it is the "victim's" fault that he/she is abused or that he/she deserves it...

I think the author has some points, but generalizes to much and does not accept that grown-ups are responsible for their choices...

write

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there is no choice
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2004, 10:57:04 PM »
in many relationships.

Once you have children and are committed to providing the best environment for them: they love their fathers, who love them too ( even when messed up psychologically )

if you marry a successful narcissist there are inevitable financial and social implications to leaving your relationship.

Even if it is an abusive and destructive relationship for you it is naive to think that it is a simple choice.

It never is.

That's why I reccomend the Lundy Bancroft book: he is one exceptional professional and writer who can present all sides of this complicated picture.

write

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plus
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2004, 10:59:46 PM »
I think it is NEVER helpful to pathologize victims of abuse in any way....that is turning what really happens about-face.

Argusina

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2004, 04:46:40 AM »
I see what you mean write, but I do beleive that those who are not personality disordered, and stay in relationships, also contribute to the children being abused, for example...

Silence, is in my book, agreeing  :(

I beleive that staying in an abusive relationship in part has pathological roots and in part is because of "the Stockholm syndrome"...

These are not EASY choices but they are choices nevertheless... That does not mean judging those who stay, just accepting that it is in fact a Choice made...

Argusina

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2004, 09:20:36 AM »
PS Of course I am talking only about adults (children are helpless in the face of abuse)!

Anonymous

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2004, 09:53:14 AM »
before I had children I would definitely have thought this- however they are NOT abused or showing any signs of neglect or abuse, but thriving and happy.

They don't particularly care whether Dad and Mom are happy! They don't even look at us in the context of separate adults yet, they are just happy in their little world and definitely do not want me to break it up.

Maybe they are more protected from the n-ism than in other families, we don't argue in front of them and we both listen carefully and respect- they definitely have their 'voice'.

My N partner is able to see them as separate, and to be a good father in many ways.
It's me who he doesn't see as separate, and to a lesser extent people who work for him.

the Stockholm Syndrome may apply to some abused women, but for me it's just a question of trying to make a good life for children; most good parents have to make sacrifices for the sake of their children.
If it was the other way and I had to sacrifice my marriage to save or protect my children- I'd do that too.

With a big big sigh, like now!

Titi

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2004, 12:12:59 PM »
I was not overtly abused by my dysfunctional parents - but I did inherit many faulty ways of relating and ended up choosing disordered partners when I grew up...

I beleive chances are small that children grow up to become emotionally healthy when something as serious as personality disorders are involved...

Children are very acute and do as we do, not as we say...

 :cry:

write

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2004, 05:37:14 PM »
No family is perfect though, is it.

Many perfectly happy people grew up in strange set-ups, with alcoholic parents, mentally ill parents, sick parents, poverty...life is damned hard for most of the world's population.

We are lucky when our children get nutrition, warm safe home, books and learning, medicine, toys, holidays AND love.

But even the children who don't get all these things are not all permanently damaged in the way that a child whose self is denied or rejected from early days is, and sometimes I feel the more NORMAL and non-abusive from the outside that family appeared to others and to that child maybe the harder it is to understand or accept they were abused.

I believe that what affects children most is the level of honesty and genuine feeling around them, for ( extreme ) example, a drug-user could be a better parent by providing the child with genuine affection and letting them be themself, than say a christian environment where a child is told what to believe ( even if they don't believe it ) or a household where everything looks perfect but actually the mother resents and dislikes her children and gets at them in small imperceptable ways.

It is the denial of the child's real self, and the forcing on a developing mind of another's reality- effectively not allowing someone to develop their own reality- that does the harm to many people whose posts I have been reading.

that they can say to their parents angrily: these are my boundaries! or this is important to me! and STILL NOT BE HEARD, be dismissed, laughed at, even as middle-aged adults who have spent years educating themselves and often their families -inside their buried-child-self is unheard and disappointed each time it is ignored.

It is the fact that they grow up unable to trust their own feelings or even to know when they are in agony, for all the times someone has told them the opposite or insisted they should not feel and certainly not express those feelings.

I could go on about this at length, for injustices are often done by social workers who perceive children living in poor, smoky, cramped conditions to uneducated parents as obviously neglected even where they are loved and happy where a child like me- who could see what was done to me? It was as invisible as I subsequently became.

And my kids sure ain't that!

Argusina

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2004, 04:08:49 AM »
Many relevant points, write, and I agree that many factors come into play...

But having a personality disordered parent (not in healing) DOES mean that the family environment & lack of true self in the parent will undoubtedly injure the child more than in a "normal" population.

Some kids are "sturdier" and will survive it, while more sensitive ones will sometimes become severely disturbed themselves...

Rationalizations may help against the shame/guilt the non-disordered parent feel, but I do not beleive it is in the childrens' best interest...  :cry:

write

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best interest
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2004, 07:46:51 AM »
oh well I'll put them up for adoption then...

This is not helpful, it's like telling someone who gets lost- oh, you never should have gone that way!

The fact is they are here, he is their Dad and always will be, they love him and he them and it's about finding the best way to manage that for us all.

Identifying the narcissism is a big help, but the issues are the same if the problem was schizophrenia or alcoholism or cancer. No one chooses those things either.

This is my last word on the topic because I feel rather baited here and wonder just who is yanking my chain...

Anonymous

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2004, 04:40:49 AM »
I'm sorry that you feel baited and cannot accept a difference in opinion without feeling "yanked". Perhaps the strong affect in you suggests something?

I stand by what I think and I've been thru a lot myself and I know I cannot undo certain things. But one thing is for sure, as an adult, I AM FULLY responsible for the Choices I make in my life.

Argusina

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2004, 04:41:47 AM »
"oh well I'll put them up for adoption then... "

Very black and white thinking...  :cry:

Portia

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2004, 08:02:44 AM »
edit

Argusina

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Sam Vaknin: 'guru wannabee'
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2004, 11:19:23 AM »
Thanks Portia   :)

But we also have to learn how to deal with differences of opinion and not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Healthy conflict is part of life & I am not going to be silenced, as long as I express myself repsectfully!

Hugs!