I've been doing some thinking...

[Sugarbear]

I listened to the last fight I had with my mother via the phone (I recorded it!) and re-read my sister's emails and I am starting to feel like I am being to harsh and might need to give my mom another chance.

But I don't want to.

In the phone convo, she attacked me, disparaged my feelings and told me that I had had plenty of time to "fix this situation" between us. When I had told her that I was still trying to come to terms with having a relationship with her when she didn't respect me, admit any wrongdoing and treated me badly, she told me that what I had just said was "foney baloney" and I didn't know what I wanted... and brought up different events to point out how badly I had treated her. When i tried to defend myself (yeah, I know, I shouldn't have bothered) she changed the subject and told me that that had NOTHING to do with what she was talking about... so it was okay for her to point out my failings, but hers, well, that just doesn't signify.

My sister has been increasingly emailing me, regarding our "poor" mother and her latest told me that she still loved me, even tho I am making bad decisions and make her angry. She also said that I am handling this situation poorly and that I will live to regret it.

So I'm waffling.

I can logically tell myself that my mother and sister are not correct - that I am doing the best I can to protect myself from being hurt and trying to figure out how to deal (if at all) but I just don't know anymore what to do.

I miss my mother. I think it is more that I miss the ideal of my mother, because I don't want the situation to go right back to the way it was. I thought I told her what is and isn't acceptable to me, but she says I haven't explained myself well enough... she thinks I have instituted this cut off to punish her. I never wanted to hurt or punish her, but I just don't know if I am capable of riding that merry-go-round of pain and misunderstanding again. I don't believe in her ability to change, so that is what is stopping me from giving her another chance. Well, that, and the fact that I have had her deliberately hurt and punish me when she gets angry with me. (so she is projecting... because this whole thing has hurt me terribly and I never wanted it to reach this point)

I don't know if I explained myself clearly and simply enough for her to understand, so a part of me feels like maybe my sister could be right, and I owe our mother another chance with me spelling out exactly what I will and will not allow anymore.

The really big thing is that she is "old" (early 60s - I don't think that is really old, but she acts much older) and has had cancer (clear, but psycologicially, she is not the same person she was before it), and just had knee replacement surgery. She isn't physically able to do certain things anymore, and she will expect me to do them. I do NOT want to anymore. I did stuff for her in the past out of a sense of obligation and because I cared about her, but now, I don't want the responsibility for her. She isn't poor, so she could hire someone to do stuff, but she hates to have strangers in her house (it's a pigsty) and will resent me for not doing what she asks. Not to mention that things like changing air filters, climbing ladders to get stuff, etc. aren't something that she can do or probably even hire done.

If I could just see her socially, a few calls a month, that sort of thing, I think I could handle it, but I know that I will be expected to pick up where I left off - as her nursemaid, cleaner, heavy lifter. How much is an adult child expected to do for a parent? Is it wrong of me to not want to do these things anymore? I feel like if I do small things for her, it won't be long before she expects me to do the larger things and then we start the fighting all over again... and I am left feeling like a b!tch for trying to stand my ground against a poor, sick woman who needs my help.

Is it wrong to cut someone out of your life that you haven't resolved your feelings towards? Am I being mean or just being firm on my boundaries?

[lightofheart]

Hi there Sugarbear,
It sounds like you're struggling with some really painful questions. My heart goes out to you. You're a good person to care so much.

Is it possible you understand more about this crossroads than is easy to accept due to the love/pain/obstacles involved?

inmho, you laid out a very clear picture of a path that will lead to more fighting and you feeling awful about yourself.
Do you see this path as inevitable?

You also described a different path: "If I could just see her socially, a few calls a month...I could handle it." Sounds like this is a path for you that your mother would object to. Do you think you would feel better or worse on this path? Do you feel ready to take on all the boudary-setting and negative feedback that might come with it?

I am left feeling like a bitch for trying to stand my ground against a poor, sick woman who needs my help.

Ouch. This sounds raw and tender...so just 100% dis-regardable questions, not meant to imply anything, I don't know anything.

Do you want to re-define the parameters of helping your M.? (Handypeople change air filters & climb ladders, do lots of  little things by the hour.) Does whatever pain you endure while helping her feel like a tradeoff you need to make for your own conscience? Do you think that seeing a parent socially, a few calls a month, might still be a good relationship, if you felt less awful/more available in those moments?

Do you agree that whatever boundaries a kind person like yourself might set would set with love and compassion, not meanness?

Blessings to you, Sugarbear.
 
LoH

[moonlight52]

Hello Sugarbear , With such a tender heart as yours you need to watch that you will not be pulled into more than you can handle .
Seems likes your sister has her issues do you want to talk to her about her motives or feelings? Lightofheart said all this better than I
but please do not go back and lose ground.Maybe you should really think it though until you know what you want then speak with your sister.This is such difficult stuff.I am sending best wishes.
Love and Light
Moonlight 

[Sugarbear]

Thank you both - (light and moon)

I have much to think about, but it feels like I am being penalized (by family) for needing time to do this...

The problem with doing things for my mother is that she feels like I owe her (for life, roof over my head, help in the past that was repaid many times over), or tries to buy me off for doing them. I stopped taking anything from her a while ago, but she questions my motives and tells me why I do the things I do.

I will be seeing my sister in a few weeks, so maybe we can discuss just what exactly she thinks I am doing that is so bad, and why she thinks guilting me is going to fix all of our problems. She hasn't even asked me about how I am or what I have gone through, so I am sure she is full to the brim of my mother's bitterness and anger.

[Jona]

Sugarbear

I think you are letting your sister put a guilt trip on you.  May I ask how much your sister is willing to do for your mother.

Another thing--You say your mother is in her early sixties and in ill health.  She has had cancer.  Does she have cancer now?  She recently had knee replacement surgery.  I don't think the doctor's would have been willing to give her knee replacement surgery if she was in poor health.  They would have been worried that she wouldn't survive the operation.  Knee replacement surgery is given so a person can resume a more normal life.

And another thing--Your mother is really old (early sixties).  Well I am in my late sixties and have arthritis.  I garden, cook, clean, and all the other things that I both enjoy and hate.  I think it is quite possible that your mother just doesn't want to do things for herself.  She is young enough to still have a lot of life in her.  It is not good for her to not be doing the things for herself that she is actually capable of doing.  Once you reach the age of 60 it really is true that if you don't use it, you lose it.  That includes both mind and body.

I remember reading once that it was a mistake to do too much for a child.  The advice given was to not do anything for a child that the child was capable of doing for itself--liking getting dressed and so on.  Treat your mother like a child that is capable of doing a lot of things for herself.

I have a feeling that your mother doesn't politely ask you to do things for you.  She either orders you to do it or takes it for granted that you will automatically do it for her.  Like taking care of her after her surgery.  This is disrespectful of you.  I bet she never thanks you either.

Stop the guilt thoughts.  Take the time you need.  You and your family should be your first priority.

[seasons]

Hi Sugarbear,

I read your post earlier and hit really hit home for me. I couldn't answer honestly, ya know old stuff gets in the way sometimes. Your post was very tender. I knew you would receive great insight. And kudos to JONA, excellent and thoughtful post.

Also sending you the best of wishes for YOU and YOUR family first! seasons

[Sugarbear]

I think you are letting your sister put a guilt trip on you.  May I ask how much your sister is willing to do for your mother.

Another thing--You say your mother is in her early sixties and in ill health.  She has had cancer.  Does she have cancer now?  She recently had knee replacement surgery.  I don't think the doctor's would have been willing to give her knee replacement surgery if she was in poor health.  They would have been worried that she wouldn't survive the operation.  Knee replacement surgery is given so a person can resume a more normal life.

My mother had cancer in her early 50's. She had agressive treatment, and was cured. She goes in for her check ups, but otherwise, she has been cancer free for close to 8 years. She is not in great health, as she is very sedentary and prefers to watch tv all day or maybe read a book. She is very overweight and has no social life... and feels like she is very old (constantly refering to her "advanced" age). She claimed that the cancer was a "life changing event" for her, and I thought it would be a wake up call to start taking care of her health, and getting out there and really "living" her life... but unfortunately she became a childish, clingy and whiny person who has withdrawn even further into herself.

I don't think that 60 is "old" - but for my mother, she has decided that she only has a few years left, at most. She constantly plays the death card... implying that she will probably die in the next year or two. There is NOTHING to think that she won't live another 20 years or more, other than her moaning about age.

My sister lives out of state, and even if she were nearby, wouldn't do half of the things I have done for our mother over the years. She and our mother usually have very heated arguments. She also has a young child, and commitments to her job, husband, etc... and she has never been extremely helpful even when asked. (not that she is mean, just that she usually has excuses or other things happening and won't change her plans)

And another thing--Your mother is really old (early sixties).  Well I am in my late sixties and have arthritis.  I garden, cook, clean, and all the other things that I both enjoy and hate.  I think it is quite possible that your mother just doesn't want to do things for herself.  She is young enough to still have a lot of life in her.  It is not good for her to not be doing the things for herself that she is actually capable of doing.  Once you reach the age of 60 it really is true that if you don't use it, you lose it.  That includes both mind and body.

I remember reading once that it was a mistake to do too much for a child.  The advice given was to not do anything for a child that the child was capable of doing for itself--liking getting dressed and so on.  Treat your mother like a child that is capable of doing a lot of things for herself.

I have a feeling that your mother doesn't politely ask you to do things for you.  She either orders you to do it or takes it for granted that you will automatically do it for her.  Like taking care of her after her surgery.  This is disrespectful of you.  I bet she never thanks you either.

Stop the guilt thoughts.  Take the time you need.  You and your family should be your first priority.

You hit the nail on the head there. My mother doesn't ask me to do things, I get told or "asked" (which her way is forming the sentence to sound like a question, but tone and emphasis are clearly not) and then get yelled at when I tell her "no" no matter how politely. Or starting a sentence out "I need you to come do..." as a statement.

She has gotten lazy about having me do everything for her, which I did because I was still around so much and she really started acting helpless after the cancer (one of the MAJOR changes) and wanted me to take care of everything. She is still young enough to enjoy life (she is retired) and do things for herself, but she is so angry with me for not doing what she wants.

She is acting like a child having a temper tantrum. She is irrational, defensive, violently angry and lashing out at me when she doesn't get her way. I can't talk to her without her escalating any conversation into an argument, and she argues just like a child - flinging blame, changing the past, real hit-and-run tatics without any thought to them...

Thank you so much for responding. Getting perspective from someone that is in the same age group as my mother means so much to me.
 

Here's what you explained:

she thinks: I have instituted this cut off to punish her.

I felt: I never wanted to hurt or punish her

Do you see the disconnect here? Mom and sister are trying to tell you how you think and feel. Why are they doing this? Well, they need to shift their feelings of shame onto you, and you're the easy target for lots of complicated reasons. This is a very complicated and complex problem that they are trying to solve easily - if you'd just take all the blame for all the faults in the relationships, then they could go back to happily being superior in their roles whilst you take back on the role of the scapegoat. Do you see how this prevents them from ever having to feel those real feelings? The hurt, the anger, the jealousy, the shame? Why would this be helping them? I know how it would help you; sometimes those roles are easier. It takes courage to buck the system. The scapegoat plays a very very difficult role, but guess what - you're healthy and you're going to be OK even if you don't continue to play this role for their benefit. You can think and feel and you've done so and expressed yourself quite well I think. No need to belabor the points; they don't "get it." I know that hurts and I'm very sorry and facing the fears of what will become if you "go back" or what will become if "don't go back" is very tough. I'm at that point too sugarbear. We are at the exact same spot. I can say I've broken down and cried more times in the past months than I have in my whole life. Grief hurts. Denial hurt more cause it was small doses over a lifetime. I don't think I can go back there. I will be OK and so will you without the Ns. I'm sorry sugarbear, but you're courageous and you're strong.

You don't need to be a target, you know? You were not born with a big orange X on your forehead indicating "hey, I'm vulnerable, come and take a shot."

yes, yes, YES!! I am CONSTANTLY told what I am thinking and what I am feeling! My mother fancies herself a psycologist because she can read a few books, and is always telling me what is "wrong" with me and my hidden motives for this or that. I HATE THAT.

I always figured that she projected her feelings onto me (splitting) or else assigned bad feelings/motives to me so that she had justification for her feelings of rage, lonelyness, etc... it is always my fault that she was sad or angry.



Thank you everyone for the wonderful insights!

[Jona]

Sugarbear

Your mother has made her own choices in how she lives her life.  She is the one responsible, not you or anyone else.  You already know that.  I think you doing things for her would just be enabling.

It is unfortunate that you cannot just have social visits with your mother like you would like to have.  If I were you, I wouldn't want to take a chance by trying to do so.  I couldn't with my mother either.  She would take every opportunity to be nasty.  My mother would make her requests for my help in the same way as yours.  She would just say "I want you to........."  I stayed away from her as much as possible.  Sometimes for months at a time.  She was very clever though.  She started saying, "My doctor wants you to ........."  Or "My stock broker wants you to ......."  I fell for it a few times.  Don't be surprised if your mother starts doing this.  The name of the game is manipulation.

[Greta]

Sugarbear,
I got some helpful support  on a similar type of situation awhile ago on the board.   It was important for me to have encouragement to do what I needed to do to heal, even if it goes against the "good daughter" stereotype, or my nmother's neediness.  My therapist has helped with this too--telling me I'm not a "bad daughter" if I need to take time to get stronger, if I need space away from my mother to do this. 

Some people are toxic to us and sometimes they are members of our own family.  Many people would see both my nparents as being "harmless,"  but to me they weren't--I had no identity of my own, no life.   Being apart from my mother, with no contact at first, and then brief superficial emails, greeting cards etc., no phone calls, was what allowed me to grow.  I took 3 years for myself, without a visit(she only lives an hour away--my nfather lives 3000 miles away thank goodness), and then had one in December, when  *I* was ready, on my terms, for a limited amount of time, as a way to practice my boundaries. I had a panicky feeling that this meant now I had to visit all the time, but I pulled myself back, and remembered that taking care of myself does not make me a bad person. 

 I have a sister, and she was freaked out by my dealing with emotional stuff, and distanced herself, saying she'd forgiven my mother, and didn't want to dredge stuff up.  It's difficult being the "designated patient"--the one in therapy, who therefore  must have the problems--but I wanted to be a healthy person, so it's worth it.  The world needs more healthy people.  And as much as I want to save my sister, she is the one who has to realize for herself that she has emotional trauma to deal with.  Let's not even get into the fact that my mother is a therapist and thinks she's dealt with everything. . .

No amount of visiting and attention really made my nmother happy in the past, and accepting that was hard--part of me so wanted to try and make her happy, rescue her, take care of her.  To be apart from her was to truly accept that I can't save her.  It has been lonely at times, but like you said, it's often a loneliness for an ideal mother who doesn't exist.   You are not a bad person if you want to have boundaries.  You are a daughter, not a servant.  You are not obligated to make her understand--that would involve massive psychic "surgery"  or miraculous healing, and those are not yours to provide.  I still get moments of fear that I have totally misjudged my mother, that I've done something awful--but then I think back to the person I was--depressed, little joy, having a "caseload" instead of friends, back pain, nightmares,  obsessiveness about body symptoms, no hobbies, didn't drive and very dependent on my husband--and the painful entries in my journal, and I would never want to go back there, and I hope you don't have to either.
Greta

[Sugarbear]

Sugarbear,
I got some helpful support on a similar type of situation awhile ago on the board. It was important for me to have encouragement to do what I needed to do to heal, even if it goes against the "good daughter" stereotype, or my nmother's neediness. My therapist has helped with this too--telling me I'm not a "bad daughter" if I need to take time to get stronger, if I need space away from my mother to do this. 

Thank you!! Your post really strikes a cord with me, because that is exactly where I am right now...

She started saying, "My doctor wants you to ........."  Or "My stock broker wants you to ......."  I fell for it a few times.  Don't be surprised if your mother starts doing this.  The name of the game is manipulation.

They must all work from the same playbook. I got that one too. Since I was a smartmouth kid and always talked back, I did two things. I called the doctors and the stockbrokers and checked up on the story [she was lying, of course] and then, the next time I got one of these, I responded with, "Well, mom, that's really interesting, because my therapist wants YOU to stop trying to manipulate and con me into doing things for you that you can do for yourself."

Not recommended for everyone. But in my case it was worth it. Another step towards the door and freedom. It was worth it!

Good idea! I need to remember that manipulation is behind her actions right now - the need to get me to be what she wants will drive her to do this sort of thing...

Again, thank you so much everyone. I needed a little strength and perspective on this. I'm really trying to heal and I needed to hear that taking the time to do so isn't being selfish... no matter what my family thinks. Sometimes it is so easy to get bogged down in the blame and anger in a volitile situation that you start doubting yourself, and your needs... so thank you from the bottom of my heart.