"Nobody else ever wanted me" old tape

[pennyplant]

Oh, just thinking about starting this thread activates a couple more old tapes that play in my head.  I'm feeling that pressure in me, a reluctance to start, that tells me I'm working on something crucial.  So, here goes.....

Many of the members have shared their feelings here, past and present, about their own promiscuity and how it relates to voicelessness.  I have read these posts with a great deal of interest because for me that was the path not taken.  Most likely because that was one of the symptoms of voicelessness that my sister grabbed before I could grab it for myself!

In real life, people often tell me about their past.  Most people, it seems, have a past.  One time, a co-worker was talking about how she flirts with just about every man who is living and I told her I didn't understand how she could do that.  And she said, "Well, you know how it is.  You sleep with a guy you don't really like, and the next day you wake up and say to yourself, 'What was I thinking?'"  And I said, "Yeah, I know what you mean."  Then I realized what I had done, just agreed with her because I could imagine what that might be like.  So I amended it and laughed and said, "Did you hear what I just said?  I answered you like I had actually done that before!"  She just kind of looked at me while I laughed about that.  I don't know if she thought I was mocking her or not.  She's the type to forget about things right away, though.  So, I didn't dwell on her possible reaction for more than a moment.  Instead, I went ahead and played my old tape to myself, "Nobody else ever wanted me anyway."

Now, as far as I knew, until just recently, it was quite true.  Besides my husband and one boy in high school who asked me out twice, nobody else ever wanted me.  All the evidence pointed to this explanation for why I never had a boyfriend of any kind until I was 17.  And I am married to him.  And I have never successfully cheated either, even though I tried to twice.  Promiscuity gone terribly wrong.  The story of my life.

And yes, I have read all your stories about this subject and I understand them in my brain.  It is in my heart that I have the problem.  I do understand what you are talking about when you mention shame, and that maybe it wasn't real love or real connection in many of these situations.  I understand the pain that choosing the wrong person has caused in your lives and your children's lives.  I understand that I may have avoided some tragic situations.  Seeing it, understanding the logic of it is one thing.  What is happening when I'm reading your stories, which causes me to not take them in all the way, is this:  When I read the story, my first thought is, "At least somebody wanted you."  My second thought is, "You are normal and have learned things about yourself, others, and relationships in the ways that other normal people do.  You opened yourself up.  You are a real person.  I am not."

I think I understand Pinocchio better than I should.

A few years ago, a co-worker who was attracted to me, said,"Come on, Pennyplant, you must have a couple of skeletons in your closet, before your husband took you out of circulation.  Come on!"  I hated to disappoint him.  So I said, "Well, maybe a couple, but I guess I'll leave them in the closet for you to imagine."  But in reality, I just had a couple of not so interesting brushes with being human when I was 17 and that was about it.

I guess it is my mother who put the tape in there.  "I had lots of boyfriends when I was your age (11), I wonder what is wrong with you."

Well, I wonder too.  It is not normal to be so off-putting that not even some clueless guy throws himself at you.

Once in awhile a guy would call me when I was young.  Not very often.  And it never became anything.  It was never a guy I was attracted to.  I suppose most girls are willing to go on a date with a boy who is just a friend, just to have a date.  That never even occurred to me.  I wouldn't have known what to say or how to act and I would not have wanted to hurt someone's feelings.  Though I bet I did hurt some feelings by my reactions to a couple of these boys who maybe were testing the waters.  Or maybe they just wanted to be friends.

I do think that a major way of valuing women is by judging how attractive they are to men.  It is only recently that I have learned men are attracted to me.  The previous 40 years were something of a drought.  My husband and my best friend tell me that if I wasn't married, there would be no questions about it.  But I am married and always will be.  So, I have to answer that question myself.

It comes back to the "Nobody else ever wanted me" tape.  I told myself that.  Well,  mom did too.  But that doesn't count.  I have told myself that hundreds and hundreds of times.  I compare myself, too:

Why does he want her--she's not slim and attractive?
How did she get so and so to do that for her, it's not like she's really going to sleep with him?
How come he liked me for awhile then forgot me?

This is somewhat related--in high school it came down to me through the grapevine that the popular kids were wondering why I wasn't popular.  I seemed like I should be, but I wasn't.  Why not?

When am I going to graduate high school in my heart?  When will I be a real person?  Maybe when I get that tape out of my head.

Today I thought for the first time, and really contemplated it, that maybe it wasn't that nobody wanted me.  Maybe it was some other reason that caused things to work out the way they did.  And not even the all purpose reason: "everything always turns out for the best."  I know that I have a good life.  I want to be satisfied with my life.  What will settle this for me has to be some kind of real explanation for what happened and why it happened and that maybe it wasn't about me being unworthy.

I mean, men notice me now.  And I'm not so different from the way I always looked and acted. 

My sons have each had many girlfriends and friends.  So, I can give birth to normal humans.

I think I was afraid to be open before.  With good reason.  So, people, guys, sensed that they should give me my distance.  Perhaps they were afraid I would reject them.  I really don't know.  Does that seem like I'm anywhere near on the right track?

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

I knew you had a unique beauty that high school louts wouldn't get, PP. Just knew it, and it's more than your wonderful hair. I think in your maturity, men are seeing YOU now, PP...of course they notice! And of course you were worthy of it back then too. Maybe Mud can help, but I really do think HS boys operate by a very different appreciation formula than adult men do...

I don't know the formula but I can say this, which won't necessarily clear up any confusion:
when I was young I was fairly beautiful according to conventional standards and was asked to model for photographers and artists. I had plenty of male interest but much of that because I was also a manic extrovert who practically DEMANDED it.

My features are the same and I'm pretty shapely for an older bat. But now I don't think looks mean as much and I'm carrying my baggage covered with its travel stickers and although I might be considered pretty by some who are punching their what's-pretty punchcards, I get flirted with by married men, have close male friends.................and haven't been asked out on a date in absolute ages.

I think I have completely stopped flirting. So I don't get romantic-sexual signals at all.

YOU BET YOU WERE WORTHY. And it sure would have confused me to have a competitive mother boast about the numbers of her boyfriends if I was a young girl who didn't fit the magazine-mayonnaise mold.

You ain't mayonnaise, PP. You are truffle sauce.

love,
Hops

[Plucky]

Hi PP,
just a quickie here, no, not THAT kind of quickie!  Get your mind out of the gutter!....
Let's reframe this.
1.  " Nobody wanted to use me".  Because let's face it. That's what it frequently is.  Scratching the itch.
2.  Any 11 year old who has lots of boyfriends - what does that mean?  If I had a D and she was 11 and she had 'lots of bf' I would sure make sure what exactly that meant!  In the kindergarten sense, or in the Taxi Driver sense?
3.  Even Pinnochio learnt to say no when he became real.   You must have been real from the getgo.

Plucky

[WRITE]

men notice me now.  And I'm not so different from the way I always looked and acted. 

I think we give off subtle signals though- if we're really feeling unworthy then other people pick up on if not that exactly the fact we have some unresolved emotion which is holding us back.

I don't think it's a bad thing you haven't had tons of failed relationships though!
Because that's what they would have been, if you weren't ready.

I have a friend who's a bit mixed up right now and she said it's alright for me, I've been married! I pointed out we've had years of unhappiness and problems ( which she knows anyway ) and I am divorcing, she said yes but at least you did something! Er yes, I was so afraid of being on my own and didn't know I could be working on myself & loads of other exciting stuff so I hurled myself headlong into a difficult relationship then it took me until until middle age to extricate myself...you get the picture!

Most people, it seems, have a past

but not always one you want to use as a role model!

it sure would have confused me to have a competitive mother boast about the numbers of her boyfriends

G_d save us from parents who don't grow up even when they have kids of their own.

That's what it frequently is.  Scratching the itch.

I love this.

It's so true- just having sex or a fling when you really want connection and commitment is lonelier than being alone.

it wasn't that nobody wanted me.

I know, that's such faulty reasoning isn't it, like the store ran out of ice cream, someone in purchasing must really hate me...

We learn these assumptions young though.

It has been hard for me to take anything which triggers rejection because of my very early childhood, but I am learning that the world doesn't watch my every move like I do, and mostly people are just not noticing rather than avoiding me etc.

A friend said to me ages ago when I complained that no one cares: it just feels that way because you're needing someone to, other people just aren't on your timeframe or your wavelength right now. You're waiting for each comfort but if you were happy and busy you'd think your life was full of people who are interested in you with the same level of input, because right now you're not getting the things you need... ( I can add- or think I need )

I think I was afraid to be open before.  With good reason.  So, people, guys, sensed that they should give me my distance.  Perhaps they were afraid I would reject them.  I really don't know.  Does that seem like I'm anywhere near on the right track?

Sounds right.

Does it bring a sense of reframing your past in a less self-critical way?

[2bbetter]

Funny thing about the Ugly Duckling syndrome is you don't have to be an ugly duckling to have it huh (I'm sure there's some psych term for it)

Schools a funny place, like later life but different also. The advantage in school was that you had a cummunity to see how certain people acted with others as well as they acted to you. I would see even then that girls who glanced, looked, approached or flirted with me were attracted to the stereotype they 'saw', not me per se. You could see that some people expressed attraction to you also expressed it to people who who very unlike you also, for example.

Thing is, I had a disdain for small talk then. Giggly childish chatter was how kids experimented with initial conversations. It amazed me how so many people stayed with this mode into 'adulthood'. The subject matter took on adult themes, but the method of 'connecting' remained the same for them.

Anyway, I withdrew from approaching people more out of fear of failure than of lack of self esteem. Yet, it felt more like a self esteem issue to me, because I didn't recognise there wasn't any pass or fail involved in talking to people. (from school stuff, always was top of the class etc)

Unfortunately I learned rather late that initial small talk is needed cos its a safe base to start from, & you can very quickly say something real if you want, If they go with it great, if they don't so what ! (didn't anybody else get sooo bored with going out to pubs & clubs & meeting people & HAVE THE SAME BORING CONVERSATIONS!)

Overly self conscious - yup. Comes from 'doing better than' the older siblings as a kid without even realising I was doing it, & they had 4 years on me.

Ineresting where I led myself with this post, 'performance' focus, from fear-of-failure thinking (or viceversa) leading to thinking about personal low self esteem when it didn't feel like it, (but seeing it in so many people, & every book, article etc telling us we have it, & telling us we have it even if we don't think we have it because we have it ! haha)

We can self talk ourselves into things; we can self talk ourselves out of things; gotta have more other talk too huh

[gratitude28]

Penny,
Now I KNOW you are my sister...
You know, I have dreams lately that I am alone and it has been years and no man likes or loves or wants me and there is no hope of it ever happening.
I also tried to get boys to like me while young (I wasn't successful until later). I think I scared them all away with my wanting so badly to be wanted. It was embarrassing, really. They found me annoying and gross I am sure. And my motehr also pointed out that she couldn't believe no one wanted to date me or whatever.
And Plucky is right about boys using you. But I wanted to be used. I wanted for ANYONE to want me. PLEASE??????
I understand you 100%.
And now that I am far from my ideal body type (and, let's face it, I wouldn't feel good about myself unless I looked like Scarlett Joahnssen... and probably not even then) I get upset if a guy acts interested in me. I did that even when I was desperate too. Because I figured if a guy was interested in me, he must be a loser.
What a fun life we lead, eh?????
Penny, thenks for getting those points out and bringing even more heavy stuff to light!!! We are working our way throught he hard stuff, babe.
Love, Beth

[Portia]

Hi PP

Seems like part of the issue is comparing yourself to others?

I realised one day that I wouldn’t buy another woman’s magazine. I was looking at photos of skinny models in bikinis and the thought actually entered my head: “maybe if I lost some weight, I could look like that……..” (which was incredibly wishful and unrealistic thinking, in a big way). I stopped the thought, pretty horrified. Brainwashing in action! I mean I was stunned that simply looking at images could change my thinking so easily and quickly.

Most people, it seems, have a past.

Those that tell you about it have, but I imagine there are many who don’t talk about it….because they haven’t got a ‘past’. Those that do talk about it, do you think they’re happy about it? 

"Well, you know how it is.  You sleep with a guy you don't really like, and the next day you wake up and say to yourself, 'What was I thinking?'"

I think it’s a wee denial of self-hatred going on? “I sleep with men I don’t even find physically attractive because it confirms to me that I am inherently worthless”. Fine, carry on. Do I need to hear about it?

I don't know if she thought I was mocking her or not.
She didn’t know either! She knows herself so little that she can’t decide it that is mock-worthy or not. Maybe.

"You are normal and have learned things about yourself, others, and relationships in the ways that other normal people do.  You opened yourself up.  You are a real person.  I am not."

This is exactly how I used to think about me not having children. I thought I’m not a normal, real, living woman because I don’t have children. I don’t have a real life. The grass is always greener until you jump the fence I think.

Nobody else ever wanted me

When some men and women want to have sex with you, they don’t see you at all. They want validation of their existence (I screw therefore I am). The partner is not a person, is not wanted for themselves. The partner is inconsequential to the act. It makes you feel less than human. Horrible.

What’s more important is what you want(ed) and why. Anyone can have sex with an object or a person, be it themselves. There’s no relationship in it, it’s a physical act with no intimacy, like eating a hotdog on the run. Do you remember the hotdog’s name?

Why does he want her--she's not slim and attractive?

Because she makes him feel ten feet tall? Because she laughs at his jokes? Because she makes him feel wanted and special? Because she reminds him of his mother? What has slim and attractive got to do with mating?

How did she get so and so to do that for her, it's not like she's really going to sleep with him?

PP in what context do you think this? Do you think women use sex as a bartering tool? (Some women do sure, but not all.)

How come he liked me for awhile then forgot me?

Maybe he didn’t think that you liked him? Men need to feel wanted by women. In sex men want to make a woman satisfied, that’s where they really ‘score’ in crude terms. They need lots of positive feedback. Ewwww this is so basic and I apologise to all men reading. I’m reducing it to a level which is yukky. But I agree with Plucky about scratching the itch too.

Comparing ourselves to others seems to only make us unhappy.

Am I happy as I am? Or do I need to think someone else is ‘better than’ me or ‘worse than me’ to survive?

[Brigid]

Penny,
When I was 17, I was so desperate for a boy to want me, that I hooked up with a guy who date-raped me one night when I was drunk (I was a virgin at the time), would sometimes burn me with cigarettes, claiming it was an accident and a myriad of other abusive behaviors--but I stayed with him, until he got bored with me and moved on to his next victim.  Having a past, can be a very painful thing.

People have always considered me attractive, but I was never comfortable in my own skin, so probably didn't believe it.  Now that I am 56, I think I am more beautiful than I have ever been, because I accept myself.  I am proud of the shape I am in and not afraid to show it.  From the age of 32 to 50, I only wore 1-piece bathing suits even though my body would have allowed for a bikini.  Part of it was probably wanting to look like a proper mom while my kids were younger, but also because I didn't think I looked good and my xh certainly never gave me any confidence to do so.  These days, I only wear 2-piece suits and proud of it.  My b/f thinks I look fabulous and tells me all the time.  My kids are proud of my looks and the shape I am in for my age.

My daughter is 18, intelligent, very beautiful and has a perfect body.  She has never had a boyfriend, and as far as I know, has never even been kissed romantically.  She has a number of boy friends, but has never dated any one boy.  I actually consider her quite lucky to have gotten through high school without having any romances.  Now that she is in college, I'm sure that will change, but I also think she is more ready for it and has the maturity to make good decisions.  I hope I have given her the security of love necessary to keep her from feeling the desperation of being loved by a man.  Unfortunately, her father has not given her that same love and attention during the most important part of her developing into a woman, so I do worry at some level.

These are good things to be thinking about and discussing "out loud."  Learning to love yourself is a big part of erasing the old tapes.  Sex and love are so different.  Wonderful when combined, but damaging when kept separate.  I recently saw a poll of a large number of women of all ages.  When asked if they would have to give up sex or love, which would they choose.  Young women overwhelming chose love because they can't appreciate how valuable that is to your life in the long run.  As the respondents got older it mostly changed to sex.  Their feeling was that they could live without sex, but living without love would be devastating.  I was married to a man for 22 years who didn't give me either one.  I hope I can improve on that in the future.

Hugs,

Brigid

[Portia]

Brigid

Young women overwhelming chose (to give up ??) love because they can't appreciate how valuable that is to your life in the long run.  As the respondents got older it mostly changed to sex.  Their feeling was that they could live without sex, but living without love would be devastating.

Incredible! People think they want sex but not love? I'm astonished. This sort of news leaves me open-mouthed. Maybe the respondents were all sex-addicted narcissists? That would make sense, unfortunately. Not everyone is like that!

[pennyplant]

So many great messages here.  I'm reading and digesting all of them and will respond to each starting tonight and going into tomorrow.  This is all helping me to make my new "tape".  So many directions to look in and all of it related.  I was nervous about this topic but knew I could take the chance of bringing it up here  .

I'll be back later.

PP

[Brigid]

Portia,
I probably didn't make myself quite clear.  The question was posed as "If you HAD TO give up either sex or love, which would you choose?"  I don't think most respondents would choose sex without love, but when given an absolute choice, young women still preferred to having sex in their lives as opposed to love.  I can understand that to a degree, as while we are young, instant gratification has more appeal than worrying about the long term.  As we mature, obviously most of us would still prefer to have sex and love, but when having to give one up, the sex would be given up in lieu of love because, IMO, how love makes us feel on the inside.  It still allows two adults to be intimate with each other, without the physical gratification of intercourse.

I hope that makes a little more sense to you now.  Sorry for not being more clear.

Brigid

[Hopalong]

Hi P, B, and PP...

P, my answer to your shock is that many, many girls are servicing boys orally ROUTINELY in junior high (12-15). Huge numbers of girls, maybe a third or more. This is a new generation that is absolutely glutted from MTV and (here comes the soap) the ever-downgrading images of women in the media...

It really has gone retrograde, the culture, after all the struggle. Porn use is routine, girls go wild at the drop of nothing...

It's not the free "love" of the ol' hippie days. Todays' kids are hardened and "hook up" intentionally for sex that they completely and consciously disassociate from love.

It's a bad new world and I worry a lot...and so, Brigid's info is saddening but no surprise. 

Really sad.

Hops

[portia guest]

(((((((((Brigid)))))))))) no you were perfectly clear No problems with what you said, truly. I guess I've forgotten what it was like to be 16...17...18 when sex is that important in some ways, I guess....but the shock was real. Even I (???) knew what 'love' was, or maybe not, maybe I had a yearning for love and an image of it. To consider giving up love for sex. Oh I don't know. It depends on how the question was asked, who asked it etc. Market research is pretty much skewed to whatever the questioners want to report on. I was in marketing and I loathe market research! Sorry if my reply had you doubting your post Brigid: it was just fine, my reaction was about the information, not about your post.

(((((((Hops))))))). More information, thank you, that has me thinking about this whole issue: sexualisation and marketing to young people. Blah!

(((((((((PP)))))))) You're okay and lovable as you are, you know. Keep posting! Great topic.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Pennyplant,

  Maybe it wasn't really the case that nobody else ever wanted you. Maybe the one you chose was indeed the one for you and all is just exactly as it should be? I would love to be able to say that I was still with the first man I'd ever known.

Love,
Hope

[pennyplant]

I knew you had a unique beauty that high school louts wouldn't get, PP. Just knew it, and it's more than your wonderful hair. I think in your maturity, men are seeing YOU now, PP...of course they notice! And of course you were worthy of it back then too.

There have been times in my life when I have looked absolutely awful. And there have been times in my life when I have caught men stopped in their tracks with their mouths hanging open and looking at me. What is it they see, I always wonder.  My husband has seen me both ways and every way in between and loved every one of me.  And for every look that I have had on the outside, inside I have always been little old me who is often all tied up in knots and with hundreds of thoughts and feelings swirling around in my head and heart.

I still don't understand the idea of physical attractiveness.  I know I want to look good.  I also want to look like me.  I don't want to think I'm ugly just because I look different (Truffle sauce.  Is it chocolate?  Is it mushrooms?  Sounds good either way!)  I think I'm getting away from the thinking I'm ugly.  Now I think I look okay.  My understanding of the male of the species is that there is some sexual aspect to being a redhead.  Maybe that has been part of the problem, especially in the younger days.  I don't know, though.  Not too many men admit something like that to me.  A couple have, though  .

I still like flirting, though I do expect to be more restrained in it.  Today it made me feel good when one of the guys at work who likes me, paid me that kind of attention.  It made up for being rejected by the N-co-worker.  This other guy is not N and I don't expect to have it get out of hand like it did with N.  I'm a much more subdued flirter these days.  It feels more subdued inside of me.

This is kind of meandering.  I guess what I'm getting at, Hops, is that attractiveness got me into another situation that may have been more painful than "rejection" was.  Afterall, I kind of expected rejection when I was growing up.  It wasn't as disappointing as it might have been had I expected a better social life.  Now I got a taste of being wanted, then I got kicked to the curb anyway.  That was just devastating.  And it was very selfish of me.  I did all this flirting and trying to have a fling without a lot of consideration to the fact that I am married.  There was a split in me.  Mentally I got young again for awhile.  And it wasn't the answer either.

It is good to know that I am not ugly and never was.  But what does that really mean?  Aren't we trying to overcome the idea of having to be good, useful, perfect, in order to have value?  I don't really know what I think about that yet.  I guess if I tell myself, "I am beautiful" I won't mean beautiful like a model but beautiful because I look like my best version of me.  And everybody who looks like their best version of themselves is also beautiful.

I don't think I was my best version of myself when I was growing up.  And that was the whole problem.  And it was caused by how I was raised and what I was taught by people who I wish had known better, but they didn't.  They didn't know hardly anything at all.

Well, I'm going to figure it out anyway!

Pennyplant