Author Topic: Going crazy  (Read 4623 times)

adrift

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Going crazy
« on: November 22, 2006, 07:12:52 PM »
Yes, it's about my daughter again.

Have you ever felt like you couldn't make sense out of a relationship or conversation with someone to the point where you were going to go bonkers??  DD1 tells me one thing, then swears she didn't, then tells me another and if I react disagreeably she says I'm "freaking out" and that I misunderstood her. 

Here's a classic case of our conversations.  DD1 told me a few weeks ago that she was behind 13 hours in weight training class.  I'm positive she said 13 hours and I relayed the info to hubby when I got home.  Last week I asked if she was catching up the 13 hours in the class and she goes "I never said 13 hours, I said I'm 25 hours behind" and I said "No, you said 13" to which she became aggravated and insisted she never said 13, that she said 25 and so to avoid a conflict I just agreed with her, knowing the entire time she had said 13.  When I asked if she had a plan to catch up, she said she was gonna give a friend her card to swipe when she works out and the hours would go towards my daughter.  I told her that if she gets caught that that is cheating and she said well she can't help it, that she can't do the work outs along with 16 hours of class work and 20 hours a week of part time work.  I told her if she gets caught, it's her goose.  Anyway, the whole thing is the amount of hours.  I know it seems like a small thing, but all our conversations are like this.  They have been for years and she used to tell me all the time I was going crazy (she meant it) that I was "losing it" and would really go ballistic if I insisted she had said X when she was insisting she had said Y.  It got so bad that I finally just quite arguing with her, especially after she left for college.  What's the point? I don't know if she tells so many lies that she can't keep them straight or if it just worked so well for her to bully me or if she has a more serious problem.   I don't have problems remembering anything anyone else ever tells me.  Not teachers, friends, husband, my other kids, things I read on the internet, phone numbers, etc.... why would it be that I always get things wrong with her?????????  Common sense says that I don't get it wrong with her, but that she is lying/twisting/manipulating.

Last week she said she was coming home tonight (night before THanksgiving) which shocked me because she never comes home.  EArlier today she sent me a text that said "I love you and I miss you" then later she called but didn't mention coming home today so I asked (so I'd know whether to finish her curtains today or not) and she said, "Well, I might spend the night with xxx because the roads might be icy"   I said o.k.  And she didn't mention one word about tomorrow (Thanksgiving) and I didn't ask.  We aren't doing Thanksgiving stuff tomorrow, we're doing it Sunday when everyone can be here so I doubted she would come home tomorrow but I didn't know.   The more I thought about it the madder I got because she must think I'm an idiot.  First she sends an "I miss you" text and then says she isn't coming home because of the roads being icy which is BS because it's 50 degrees outside.  So I tried to call her for almost 2 hours and she wouldn't answer her phone and so I sent her a text that said I was tired of her doing this way.  Later she calls and wants to know what I'm "freaking out" over and I said that it was an excuse about icy roads because it's 50 degrees outside and I'd rather her say "I dont' want to come home" than feed me bs and then she switches immediately to "I'm afraid to drive in thunderstorms and how am I supposed to know if it's gonna be storming tonight"   ????????  I lost my cool, told her I was tired of the BS and hung up the phone.  Since when do you have icy roads in thunderstorms???  She can't even keep her lies/reasons in the same weather formats.  Besides, she's known to go from hither to yon when it suits her.  The truth is she doesn't want to come home but she expects me to buy a line of bs.  Then she called and we got into it and she said she never said she WASN'T coming home tonight, but that she said that if the weather was bad she might not drive home but stay at xxx's.   That isn't what she said at all, but when I pointed that out she starts saying I'm freaking out, and says I'm the reason she has issues.   :x


This is how it always goes.  She says she's gonna do A, then has a reason A won't work and she has to do B, then says she never said she was gonna do A and/or B depending on the situation, and then says I don't know what I'm talking about and that I'm crazy and that everything is my fault.

Another example.  She never knows what her schedule is going to be at work.  Whenever we have a family thing coming up (which isn't often) we either have to plan a date without her schedule info or we have to cajole and beg for days to find out her schedule.  Her claim was always that the schedule wasn't posted   (WHATEVER!) So a few weeks go she's telling about a trip she has planned and I asked how she knew she would be off work so far in advance and she casually says, "They make the schedule up a month in advance"  :shock: :shock:  I filed away that tidbit as I wasn't up for a fight at the time.  So when we were trying to pick a date for family Thanksgiving she couldn't tell us her work schedule.  I turned it over to hubby to discuss with her and they got into it and he said "Well you said yourself that it's made out a month in advance" and she said that it is but that Thanksgiving isn't in this month  :shock: :shock:  Hubby pointed out that Thanksgiving is in November and then asked her if by making the schedule out for a month at a time she means they do a block of 4 weeks but it isn't by calendar month, which she flatly said "No, that isn't how it's done, it's done by the month" so around and around they went and finally after yelling on hubby's part, he finds out that yes, it's done by a block schedule of so many weeks at a time and has nothing to do with the calendar months, just as he asked her to begin with.  It's almost as though she's either brain dead (but she's not, she's quite bright) or she's high, or she's trying to keep us in the dark. 

Another example.  When she was driving from our town to private high school in the next town, she was always griping about her gas mileage and claiming she needed more money for gas. We felt sure she was fibbing but when I asked her about her trip to school and back, etc... she'd say "All I do is drive to school and back and it uses up xxx of a tank"   All we heard all the time was that she got bad gas mileage and that she needed more money for gas so hubby gave her money to fill her tank to the brim, told her to write down the mileage then and then again when the tank was almost empty.   She did the first two steps but not the last step but kept bitching about the gas but when one of us offered to drive her car for awhile to see the mileage problem for ourselves she would get mad and say never mind. This whole thing was a major, major battle at our house non-stop.    Months later when she was in college she slipped and said in casual conversation with me, "Yeah, I didn't have anything to do at lunch during my senior year so I drove around the whole hour"   :x :x :x  I said, "How come you never told us that before, city driving is the worst gas mileage and no wonder you never had any gas" and she just shrugged her shoulders.   So all that bitching and hell raising about gas money was really because she was spending an hour riding around (and was probably spending some of her gas money on other things) but wouldn't admit that to us and I only know it now because it slipped.

WHat I see is a pattern of lies but she gets all hot if you say she's lying and emphatically/ballistically  claims she isn't and that we're freaking out, we're blowing it out of proportion, we're confused, we're crazy, we're "losing it", we don't know what we're talking about, she can't handle anymore us suggesting or accusing her of lying,

And before someone on here suggests, as has been suggested before by one poster, that I'm hounding her.  These are either issues that she has created (like the gas mileage thing) or either they are subjects she brings up in conversations.  I don't hound her, grill her, I give her her space but even a small conversation reveals major inconsistencies to most of which I keep my mouth shut because it does no good to point them out.  We pick our battles with her, such as planning for Thanksgiving, and try to let the rest slide.  And if we hadn't consulted her about Thanksgiving schedule she'd have gone off on how we didn't care about her, but then when we asked we couldn't get the info.  I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.  And maybe this one time the schedule wasn't up, but it can't possibly be that way every dang time, can it?????????

I don't know if she thinks we're so stupid that we're SUPPOSED to believe her lies or if she lies so much she can't keep them straight or if it's drug usage or if I'm crazy.

I AM going crazy from years of this.  It's killing me. 




 
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 08:03:57 PM by adrift »

pennyplant

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2006, 07:37:45 PM »
Adrift,

It's okay to talk about it again.  I'll read it and so will others.  It will be good to get the thoughts out of your head and onto a screen.  Maybe it will start to help it become more manageable.

Pennyplant
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adrift

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2006, 08:05:05 PM »
Sorry guys, I hit enter before I even got started.  :oops:  The full message is there now.  :)

I"m trying to get perspective on this.  I'm thinking I'll write down every incident I can remember, just for my own info, not as ammunition or anything.  But because part of me keeps saying "maybe we really are confused, maybe I really didn't hear her right, maybe they really don't ever have her schedule up, maybe this is really all my fault"  because I can't resign myself to what might be the truth,,,,it's just too ugly to face.  :( :(
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 08:14:14 PM by adrift »

lupine

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2006, 08:08:33 PM »
Quote
It's a relief to be allowed to be a person and a parent too.

I'm quoting hops from a previous thread.  I don't know what is exactly going on but I feel I know what is happening.  Talk when you can. OK?  

pennyplant

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2006, 08:28:31 PM »
Oh Adrift,

This sounds like the gaslighting that people have been talking about on other threads.  And so many examples of it with DD1.  It would drive me crazy, too.  It seems like there is something very wrong only it's not something wrong with your hearing or your memory.  It seems to be coming from her.  And she sounds defensive, too, out of all proportion to your questions.  Off the top of my head it seems like she is hiding something, but I just don't know what it would be.  She seems to need things to be a certain way and will say or do whatever it takes to get the results she seems to require.

It is hard to find an answer or approach when it is something that happens so much that it has become as natural as breathing for her.  Perhaps there will be some natural consequence, say from having her friend swipe her card to get the workout hours she needs, and it may be an outcome that can't be fixed and she will have to sit with the results of her actions.  It might be the only way for her to really see it.  She just doesn't see it yet.  And that is probably because the way she does things actually works for her.  It must be comfortable on some level and serve a purpose.  Until she wants something different out of her life, or until she stops getting the "right" results, there is no motivation for her to do things any differently.  And aren't we all like that on some level?

This must be really hard, Adrift.  Did she ever call the counselor to set up an appointment for herself?  Am I remembering right that she was going to do that a few weeks ago?  It seems like it would be a starting point.  Maybe she doesn't even know for sure what her real motivations are.  It might be something so basic to her personality or coming from so long ago that she doesn't even know it's there anymore herself.

Pennyplant
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Stormchild

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2006, 08:29:38 PM »
Yes, it's about my daughter again.

WHat I see is a pattern of lies but she gets all hot if you say she's lying and emphatically/ballistically  claims she isn't and that we're freaking out, we're blowing it out of proportion, we're confused, we're crazy, we're "losing it", we don't know what we're talking about, she can't handle anymore us suggesting or accusing her of lying,

And before someone on here suggests, as has been suggested before by one poster, that I'm hounding her.  These are either issues that she has created (like the gas mileage thing) or either they are subjects she brings up in conversations.  I don't hound her, grill her, I give her her space but even a small conversation reveals major inconsistencies to most of which I keep my mouth shut because it does no good to point them out.  We pick our battles with her, such as planning for Thanksgiving, and try to let the rest slide.  And if we hadn't consulted her about Thanksgiving schedule she'd have gone off on how we didn't care about her, but then when we asked we couldn't get the info.  I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.  And maybe this one time the schedule wasn't up, but it can't possibly be that way every dang time, can it?????????

I don't know if she thinks we're so stupid that we're SUPPOSED to believe her lies or if she lies so much she can't keep them straight or if it's drug usage or if I'm crazy.

I AM going crazy from years of this.  It's killing me.  
 

Hi adrift

It doesn't sound to me as though you are hounding her at all, and I am sorry that someone else here has told you in the past that you were.

It sounds to me as though she has a serious problem. It sounds as though she almost has a compulsion to lie, but she's not only lying. She's gaslighting you, and attacking you when you call her on it; trying to convince you that X is Y, and that only she knows what reality is.

The behavior you describe is abusive. These are the things that emotionally abusive people [bullies] do.

When she was little, did she lie a lot then? If she did, was it only about 'big' things - I mean, only to avoid being 'found out' and punished? Or was it indiscriminate, did she lie about anything, lie when it was just as easy to tell the truth?

I'm asking because the answer will suggest whether she has had this tendency from an early age, or picked it up later on. [Never underestimate the power of Mean Girls In Gangs to ruin impressionable or insecure girls who Don't Want To Be Excluded From The Group. I think more people get permanently warped from peer pressure and mistaken choices of friends in Junior High School than at any other time in their lives.]

The extreme defensiveness and aggression when confronted about the lying is pretty much par for the course. All really serious liars are like that.

They have to be, adrift, think about it... If a liar admits to being a liar, then they are no longer a liar! A liar who admits to lying ... has begun to tell the truth.

Now... I know this sounds awfully strong, and I know she's your daughter and you love her. But you may need to step back and let her begin to experience the natural consequences of her actions, without intervening to help her or shield her... because that may be the only thing that is going to get her attention.

And the older she gets, the less you will be able to shield her from. She's well on her way to losing a job, in the future, with this kind of behavior. Never mind losing a marriage, losing friends, etc. Sometimes it's a lot more merciful, in the long run, to let the consequences come at a young age.

Easy for me to say, I know.

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Stormchild

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2006, 08:54:36 PM »
Good lord. So help me, I was NOT reading Pennyplant's post while writing mine! :shock: :shock: :shock:
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2006, 09:12:40 PM »
hi adrift.

My almost 11 year old does this somewhat, I put it down to being immature and always wanting to be right/ the last word.

Teenagers can be obnoxious...

You can't do much about her right now, unlike me with my son where I can still make him stay home and tow the line somewhat- she's out in the big world now and will have to learn her lessons out there.

But what are you going to do for you?
You've had years of stress and parenting issues, you sound absolutely frazzled.

When is the last time you had a relaxing time or some time to yourself, without anyone else's needs or behaviour taking priority?

Hopalong

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2006, 10:10:53 PM »
Hi Adrift,
When my D was at her most torn up and confused, she lied all the time. After a lot of struggle I figured out that what the behavior was about was her fear of disappointing parents or grandparents. There was criticism and perfectionism in the family...and my anxiety. Too much "perfect" ... She got some of the family OCDishness herself.

Once I realized this I began to set up my life in ways that she could not affect me. One of the biggest crazymakers, as with you and your D's gas money, was her chaos around her finances. One step I took was to say, because you haven't been honest or responsible, what I will do if I choose to help you, is to write a check directly to (whoever...power bill, gas card). But I will not write checks to you any more. And if you need help with a bill, you send me the bill.

I decided until she became more accountable I would not hand her money. And it helped. I've also noticed more voluntary disclosure on her part, and less lying, and less tension.

Another crazymaker was the slippery promises around making plans. (I'll be home! Oh, I won't.) It was very very very hard to break myself of the habit of wanting her here when I wanted it, but I finally recognized it was a passive aggressive way of asserting power. So I took a similar tack of saying, I will not make plans around you being here, but you are welcome. My D has not celebrated Xmas at home for about six years. For about 4, I was crushed. The 5th year, I began to relax around my expections and started to realize I didn't enjoy Xmas either because of my mother's fretting domination of the whole thing (which is what my D loathed too). Last year, I had a perfectly nice simple time and didn't get hooked by my mother's list of what was missing. I just told her, Mom, rather than focus on D NOT being here, I remember that we had a really nice time with her two weeks ago, and she's coming again next month.

This year, I feel no stress at all. I just had to protect myself (as with money things, and not planning around her) and make it clear to her that I WAS NO LONGER TRYING TO CONTROL WHAT SHE DID. After some long period of asserting herself...sure enough, she was home again, we're having Real Talks again, and she's after me to visit.

So don't despair about your daughter. Lying to cope is not good but it does not predict a dire future or inevitable terrible consequences. Responsibility may come late to those who took those emotional detours, but it can still come for her. You'll help it along if you can keep loving without clutching...and show her you're letting her go. (Making sure it's not abandoning her out of anger, but stepping back and taking note that she's nearly a legal adult.)

Hope that helps, please ignore what doesn't...and be happy tomorrow, FOR YOU. It took me flipping foerver to realize that I had to get very serious about separating from her emtionally (while loving in a more detached way)...and working very hard on building my own inner strength and finding meaning and happiness in my life APART from family. That has made a lot of difference even in recent months, and I believe it makes it easier for her to express positive attachment to me, but in her own time and on her own terms. I had to endure some nasty displays and keep my peace but it did change, and for the better.

As long as they're breathing, they can learn and change. Just as we can.

love,
Hops
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 10:14:08 PM by Hopalong »
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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2006, 06:56:04 AM »
waht a great description of crazy-making behaviour. There are so many questions that I have. Have you been to a good family therapist to help you identify underlying family patterns?
I can see why this is driving you bonkers. Your reaction to her behaviour is pretty consistent ie. patient, factual and honest. This is not working. When something is not working try another approach. Ignore her behaviour. Sheis getting a very big payoff for this bad behaviour. She obviously has you hooked.
I know how painful this must be for you. If she doesn't plan ahead then "if you snooze you lose"might be a new tack that could yield some information.
Her behaviour is baffling.  At the same time it sets you up to look like a frantic mother.
Above all take care of yourself in this situation. Detach. Cancel such occasions if need be.
This sounds like a lot of advice. Gaslighting is horrible and she needs to get some very sound boundaries around this. Namecalling is nasty too.

Good luck and keep writing in .

adrift

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2006, 09:54:30 AM »
THanks everyone.  Yes, she has me "hooked" as sea storm said.  I've got to face reality here and stop fooling myself, I've just had such a difficult time accepting the truth, the truth being that she's really lying to me, manipulating me and isn't the loving daughter she tries to make me believe she is.   She can be so sweet and angelic at times and then turn around and be this other person ---- but 99.99% of the time when she's being sweet it's when everything is going her way and/or she's setting me up for something.  I guess I sound pretty stupid about accepting reality, and I have been in her case.  And my inability to see the truth has allowed her behaviour to continue. 

She did go to her first counseling session last week and reported back to me that she cried the entire hour.  She has another appointment. 

Hopalong wrote 
Quote
(I'll be home! Oh, I won't.) It was very very very hard to break myself of the habit of wanting her here when I wanted it, but I finally recognized it was a passive aggressive way of asserting power
.
Yes, they know it hurts us when they don't come home and it's a powerful weapon.  This was a biggie the first little while she was off at college, especially because it would upset her younger sister so much everytime DD1 didn't come home when she had said she would.  Poor DD2 would get on the phone with her and ask when she was coming home and then get her hopes up and then she'd be crushed.  I finally told DD2 that she was not to ask DD1 when she was coming home.  Isn't that a horrible thing to have to do?????????  But asking DD1 only worked into her plans and kept us in a tizzy here.  Of course she always had a "good reason" why she couldn't come home and on the occassions I would point it out for the b.s. it was (as I did yesterday) she'd go nuts and insist it was the truth, blah, blah, blah.  And my reason for pointing out the b.s. is because it's such an insult to my/our intelligence that she acts like we're supposed to believe her lame lies.  I get so tired of being treated like an idiot!!!!!!!  I really do keep my mouth shut about lots of stuff, but sometimes my pot simmers over, like it did yesterday.

Hop wrote:
Quote
This year, I feel no stress at all. I just had to protect myself (as with money things, and not planning around her) and make it clear to her that I WAS NO LONGER TRYING TO CONTROL WHAT SHE DID. After some long period of asserting herself...sure enough, she was home again, we're having Real Talks again, and she's after me to visit.
This is great!!! I can't imagine ever getting to that point but I'm happy for you that y'all have.


Quote
It sounds to me as though she has a serious problem. It sounds as though she almost has a compulsion to lie, but she's not only lying. She's gaslighting you, and attacking you when you call her on it; trying to convince you that X is Y, and that only she knows what reality is.

The behavior you describe is abusive. These are the things that emotionally abusive people [bullies] do.

When she was little, did she lie a lot then? If she did, was it only about 'big' things - I mean, only to avoid being 'found out' and punished? Or was it indiscriminate, did she lie about anything, lie when it was just as easy to tell the truth?

I'm asking because the answer will suggest whether she has had this tendency from an early age, or picked it up later on. [Never underestimate the power of Mean Girls In Gangs to ruin impressionable or insecure girls who Don't Want To Be Excluded From The Group. I think more people get permanently warped from peer pressure and mistaken choices of friends in Junior High School than at any other time in their lives.]

The extreme defensiveness and aggression when confronted about the lying is pretty much par for the course. All really serious liars are like that.

They have to be, adrift, think about it... If a liar admits to being a liar, then they are no longer a liar! A liar who admits to lying ... has begun to tell the truth.

Wow, that's good.  I've been thinking about this since I read it last night.  She was  manipulative when she was 3 years old. I'm not sure how young the lying started, definitely by early teenage years.  Who knows how many lies I have believed because she can be so angelic when she's telling them, until she isn't believed and then she becomes absolutely fierce.   I guess control is a major thing for her and she probably doesn't have respect for those she can control and I would be one of those.  I hate to admit it even to myself, but for some time I've realized she fits most of the criteria for antisocial personality disorder :(   It seems as though, thinking back through her life, that lying and manipulating are pretty natural for her.  I remember two separate occassions years ago when she'd had really bad outbursts when she didn't get her way ( she wanted to go somewhere and we wouldn't let her), after she calmed down, which took a long time, she admitted to me in a rare moment of openness that when she wants her way she wants it so badly that she absolutely cannot stand not getting her way. I guess that sums it up pretty good, doesn't it.

Quote
It is hard to find an answer or approach when it is something that happens so much that it has become as natural as breathing for her.  Perhaps there will be some natural consequence, say from having her friend swipe her card to get the workout hours she needs, and it may be an outcome that can't be fixed and she will have to sit with the results of her actions.  It might be the only way for her to really see it.  She just doesn't see it yet.  And that is probably because the way she does things actually works for her.  It must be comfortable on some level and serve a purpose.  Until she wants something different out of her life, or until she stops getting the "right" results, there is no motivation for her to do things any differently.  And aren't we all like that on some level?

Very true, Pennyplant.  We don't keep her from getting in trouble, it's just that trouble hasn't caught up with her yet.  I wish it would, actually, because it's this slow descent that's killing us. It's like watching a burning plane going down, only it's in really slow mo and taking forever.  Hubby has said for almost 2 years now that it's gonna take her hitting bottom for her to "wake up", but she keeps avoiding the bottom.  She's had lots of relationship turbulence since going off to college, her and her best friend are no longer speaking, her grades have been pretty bad, she nearly got fired at her last job for calling in sick so much, but she keeps limping along.  From what she's told us, her grades this semester are gonna be bad again, so hubby and I are probably not going to pay for another semester of college.  The poop will really hit the fan then, because IMO as long as she can project to the world that she's making progress in college, that she has it all together,  then she can keep up her charade about herself but if she's forced to drop out of college, then she has to face reality and others will know there's a problem and I can't imagine how she will probably react.  She definitely struggles to keep some kind of game face on for others, trying to mask this turbulence inside herself. 

THanks everyone.


Stormchild

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2006, 10:31:29 AM »
((((((((((adrift))))))))))
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"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

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WRITE

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2006, 10:35:05 AM »
I notice you side-step my question about what you are going to do for you?!  :)

Is today a day of hard work and making things perfect for everyone around you or a happy relaxed day for you?

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adrift

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Re: Going crazy
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2006, 05:43:16 PM »
Yes, I side stepped your question, but I did think about it.  Thanks. Don't know the answer, but I think allowing myself to let go and enjoy life more without worrying so much would be a good thing to do.  Probably not what you meant, but I like the idea.

 :)