Long, but would like to hear responses re my sister's response.

[isittoolate]

Original post.
 http://www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=3858.0


My sister’s response: I gather she thinks that we can ‘change’ the past, rather than refer to it, and learn from it. I gather she doesn’t know how much the past can affect us in later life. I read this and realize what denial she is in and that God is still her defence. I am not into the fundamentalist religious ways.
******************************

M___

My first reaction is to ignore your vicious e-mails completely and leave things the way they are.However I feel God wants me to tell you something. I am not interested in fighting with you. I spend all my time and energy doing things to help make my life something of value and with God's help I am doing just that, helping others and  helping raise Austin and Audrey. Bob has them every weekend and Jackie has been kicked out of the second boyfriends place and now lives in an apartment  above a store and around the corner from a bar. I dragged her out of the bar one night that the children were home alone and called the police.She is living alone and is coming to the realization she has lost all power over Bob and me because the children now prefer to be with their Dad. I still pray for her and want her healed because she is their mother. She brought all this upon herself. M___ you gave me a good picture of what a Narcissist is and Jackie fits it, so you will understand what I am saying when I say that you are a Narcissist. I cannot help you. Only God and yourself can help you. You have many talents and you are wasting your life living in such denial. God knows you and He loves you,really loves you.You cannot manipulate Him or tell him your life story in a way that you want Him to feel sorry for you. He is not intimidated by your anger and threats.So this is something you must work out with Him. It is possible and would change your life forever. Start by reading John and really hear his Word.
Now to say something to you the "right way" is like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end. Do not respond to this e-mail in anger. I am not interested at this point in what you have to say and if you do I will not respond to any future e-mails. Take what I say and make it work for you or delete it I do not care. I do not give a hoot who sat in the front seat or who sat in the back seat of a car in Jan to June 1967 or who drank whiskey straight out of the bottle or who drank whiskey by the bottle straight out of a glass. This is so petty and so far in the past. It is now 2007 and you have been dwelling this crap for 40 years or more

(In here she mentions people that diverts the initial event, in my email, to them. Cut for brevity. But this is still long, plus a lot more God stuff.)

You must have 500, 50lbs. pails of shit stashed away in your "House" Take all the "Pails of shit" with my name on them and dump them. I do not plan on carrying on any vendetta with you or digging into the past with things that cannot be changed. I cannot force you to do anything about it so lets move on. I mean it M___ I have had it.
 
When and if you do this then get down on your miserable knees before Almighty God and dump out the biggest and smelliest pail of shit that has you name on it before Him. He already knows it is there so don't try to hide it. Ask Him to forgive you for all your past, thank Him for helping you clean your House and invite Him into your life to help keep it clean. If you do this M____ with sincerity you will be clean and free and happy to enjoy all the good things and thoughts He wants you to enjoy. A life complete and whole regardless of the past.
Then you will get behind God(where you belong) instead of in front of Him trying to control the world. He will fight the demons and the vicious people like yourself for you.
This is all in the Scriptures Mae, read them.
The "Good News" is that Jesus loves you and He died for you that you might have life in all its fullness.You must ask, seek and knock.
B___


******
I can hear the venom in her voice if she were to have spoken this.
Izzy

[gratitude28]

Izz,

I love the beautiful and serene imagery your sister employs in her letter.

Honestly, I would not respond to the email. She says she doesn't care, but she is obviously trying to provoke you. I agree... you have spent enough time thinking about her. I wouldn't give her any more until she starts acting like an adult. And I always have a problem with people who believe they speak for God... (one of my hangups).

Love you, Izzy. I think you are a tremendously strong person.

Beth

[mudpuppy]

Hi izzy,

If your sister were truly a Christian she would have asked your forgiveness for what she did to you and her husband in that car, not pretended like it didn't matter, no matter how long ago it was. She would have cleaned the splinter from her own eye, not accused you of having a log in yours.

Jesus says He will know His own by their fruit.
Your sister's fruit is rotten. She's a hypocrite; and a foul mouthed and foul tempered one at that. I suspect you are wasting your time expecting anything other than projection and venom from her.

mud

[isittoolate]

Hi Beth, CB and mudpuppy

beautiful and serene imagery ........ Beth, you are a hoot!!!

I responded in a few short lines about her diversion from the incident and her generalities as opposed to specifics, then thanked her for replying. I felt she was trying to rankle me, and can tell you that if someone ever sent me something that hit a nerve, I would have a panic attack, that someone knew me better than I. This mail left me calm.   

Yes, CB
There have been times that I have visited the past with my siblings, and they with me.  Since I was diagnosed (by a psychiatrist) with Avoidant Personality Disorder, I have sent to her only.  seastorm suggested I not fall for the AvPD diagnosis, as in 'hold it loosely'. So I took another online test today. I felt it would be different after meeting all you nice people here and being able to share where it hurts or bothers. I am away down now on AvPD and more up on OCD (but I was just tidying up a website,as I have a new webmaster on board and she is more proactive. I felt I could do a few things  easier and different from the other webmaster's suggestions.)

Sis's mail  tells me I want nothing from her. I must have hit a nerve with her. "Jackie" is her ex daughter-in-law, and N, as diagnosed by my sister, after I wondered it to her. Then I assisted my sister in understanding N behaviour after my experience.

(((mudpuppy)))

You do have the words that fit! Your words were very calming!

I was thinking "projection" after I read her mail.

I don't have knowledge at hand regarding Biblical quotes, and that is something, in addition to many other things, and her so-called re-birth that is beyond my comprehension and she can outalk anyone!

Jesus says He will know His own by their fruit.
What does fruit mean in this context--what a person does? (I would have thought children. I am biblical illiterate!)

Thank you threeeeeeeeeeeeee.

Izzy


Want to see something beautiful that might bring a tear to your eye?
http://video.google.nl/videoplay?docid=-4584913278289860160

[daylily guest]

Hello Izzy:

I can't think of anything to add to mudpuppy's terrific summation, but I do want to suggest that you need to find a way out of the powerful grip this event from 40 years ago has on you.  Maybe your original letter to your sister was a way of loosening the grip the event had on you, and so no matter what her reply, the message did its work.  Maybe having let it out, you can now let it go.  Frankly, she sounds like something of a nutcase, so you might not really want whatever she has to offer.  And given her nutcase tendencies, it doesn't really surprise me that she's reluctant to try to understand the long-term effect this event had on you.  She's too wrapped up in her dysfunctional present.  (I don't mean to sound dismissive of her; I'm only responding to what and how she wrote.)

There comes a point, I think, where one's response to an event can be viewed as more significant than the event.  Of course that's a loaded and relative statement--it all depends on what, and how life-determining, the exact event was.  But I have to admit, I'm pulling for you in the present, and I'm responding to what I've learned about the present you.  And there's so much there--far too much to be held captive by the past.  Does that mean you should forget or negate the past?  Absolutely not.  I'm not suggesting that you "forget about it."  You can't, because it's part of you.  So what do you do?  In my own experience, you let the dead be dead.  And I think that works metaphorically as well as literally.

Always remember that the only life you can save is your own, and therefore the only explanations that matter are the ones you decide are true.  It might help to write this event as a story and assign explanations and motives that "feel" true.  There may actually be a lot more psychological truth to what you write than you would ever get from your sister.  My point is that no matter what you get from others, you will end up doing this anyway, because we all do.  "We tell ourselves stories in order to live," Joan Didion wrote.  I would amend that slightly:  "We tell ourselves stories in order to survive the past."  It's a deep-rooted human need to try to "make sense" of those events that affected us the most.  But sometimes, the most life-affirming thing we can do is to make sense of them for ourselves and then incorporate that sense into the present.  Those stories we tell must be dynamic, or we are prisoners of our own narrative.

I know this is a rambling meditation, and I'm sorry.  I wish you all the best, and please know that you've been in my thoughts.

daylily

[gratitude28]

Izzy,
I have been meaning to chime in on your diagnosis as well for quite a while. Whether you did or did not have AVD, I don't believe that applies to you now. If you take a look at how you deal with situations, how involved you are in work, how accomplished you are... do YOU still believe you fit into that description??? I just don't.
Love, Beth

[Stormchild]

Yow izzy.

We're going to have to refer to your sister as Tizzy. At least, when we're being polite.

My word, what a ladydog she is! I can't improve on what has already been said here, all I can do is add my own voice in total agreement.

((((((((((izzy))))))))))

PS: the world is FULL of phony Christians. Probably full of phony Buddhists and Taoists and who knows what else, too. Just 'cuz someone says they are doesn't mean squat. Watch what they DO.

[CB123]

There may actually be a lot more psychological truth to what you write than you would ever get from your sister.

Daylily,

THAT was profound.  And true. 

Izzy's sister has exhausted any ability she might have had to contribute positively to this healing.  Izzy's own truth will have to heal her.

CB

[isittoolate]

Thank you CB, daylily, Beth and Stormchild.

I caught your edit, CB, and yes this is gross! As mentioned in my previous post, I was diagnosed with AvPd and I have been very introspective. This incident appeared to be the only one that 'bothered" me and for you daylily, as well, enough that I felt the need to address it. This is the first time. Indeed it was releasing just to write my email to her. I sensed she might ignore it, so I emailed a 'prompt' after 2 weeks, about how toxic the memory is to me.

This, then, was her response and it is more or less what I expected. (I realize that appears that I provoked her, but that was not the case. At the time, I tended to think she might just respond just about the event.) I see that she has not changed at all with her phony Christianity. In trying to help myself in the present, and lay to rest the past, this event was one of, on her part, betrayal, assumption re my character, lies, misplaced blame, and now I know that no  matter what else might come to mind about her, she is toxic. It was manipulative and motive-driven. Since she can ignore the event itself, tells me she does not want to talk about it specifically, so she generalized very venomously.

I'm not suggesting that you "forget about it."  You can't, because it's part of you.  So what do you do?  In my own experience, you let the dead be dead.  And I think that works metaphorically as well as literally. My sister needs to reliaze this, and to realize as well she's reluctant to try to understand the long-term effect this event had on   Thank you for you effective post.

no Beth,
I do not feel Avoidant at present. I had holed myself up alone to examine my life, and that solitude rubbed off on me, as well as telliing myself, that there were parts of my life I never wanted to admit, so I couldn't have a  best friend. Then I went to the 'shrink' for a diagnosis. & completed the form as would an Avoidant. I might be on the 'loner' side as I require peace and quiet to do the accounting effectively.,,,,, so I bring it home. I live alone, so this can get screwy. (It's like living alone and you take a drink. That means you are drinking alone.....but a different spin than AA people)

Right Stormchild

Actions speak louder than words. Thank you for your comments re this Tizzie Lizzie story. I could write her again and tell her she stole my doll one Christmas, 63 years ago.  She didn't ask for a doll and I did. She was on the stairs ahead of me (We were likely about 4 and 6) and I saw her take a doll from one pile and put it on another pile. (Parents never wrapped presents...just made a pile for each of us with a name on it.) I looked and saw my name on that my pile without the doll...I looked up at mom and said something about no doll. She was looking at my this siter with a "what do I do now?" face and nothing was done. Now I was pretty young but that's my perception.

and CB again

There may actually be a lot more psychological truth to what you write than you would ever get from your sister.
THAT was profound.  And true
I thought so too. I remember the event so clearly, except for the extended time at the dance hall with milling people, some we knew a a lot not.

What she does is her own business, as long as she doesn't drag me in to her shenanigans. I put that in the present tense, but I wish I had 'known' that 40 years ago and wish I had been assertive enought to say "No" and stick to it. She talked me out of my "No".

I have always been one who wanted answers, and even though this ended up in a foul-mouthed mess, I have an answer.

Hugs all

Izzy

[Stormchild]

Foul-mouthed mess indeed, but you're neither the mess nor the mouth, and we're all old enough to handle a few doity woids now and then.

((((((((((izzy))))))))))

Edit in: I was going to add a comment about projection, which seems to be the main thing going on, but you already picked up on it.

[mudpuppy]

What does fruit mean in this context--what a person does?

Precisely. There are endless numbers of people who latch onto God and try to make Him their enabler; try to make Him serve them, in other words. It is my belief that they will not enjoy their fate, but that is neither here nor there.
Jesus was letting us know that those who truly have committed their lives to Him demonstrate it by their actions. He held in special contempt the Pharisees who knew the law of God backwards and forwards and constantly invoked it and endlessly told others of their righteousness, but their actions betrayed them. Your sister sounds like a modern day Pharisee.

mud

[isittoolate]

(((((((((((mudpuppy)))))))))))))))

Thank you for enlightening me. That was very clearly explained and I agree with that 100%

............. a modern day Pharisee. That so obviously comes through in her writing, a hypocrite.

I have read the bible 4 times, but interpreting it was where I was lost, so I try to live by the Golden Rule. I can understand that.

Love
Izzy

[mudpuppy]

......so I try to live by the Golden Rule. I can understand that.

I'd say you're doing well then. A pharisee, trying to trap Jesus, asked Him which of the commndments was most important and Jesus said To love God with all your might and to love your neighbor as yourself and that upon those two hang all of God's laws.
So how to live is pretty simple.

mud

[gratitude28]

Amen mud. Would that everyone followed that...

[Gaining Strength]

Izzy - I agree with so many of the responses you received.  I especially love what Mudpuppy wrote.  It is painful to see someone using religious slogans actually in violation  of what they site.  First and foremost God is love and your sister is unfortunately unable to encorporate love in her e-mail to you.  I thought "projecting" immediately when I read her criticism of you.  Also by slinging mud at you she is deflecting attention from her long ago behavior.  But she does miss the point that old wounds don't just go away any more than old radioactive material becomes benign in a few decades.  Resolution is not about burying that which offends it is about opening it up and healing it.  But what you did get from her e-mail is that she very clearly implied that she is not willing nor able to go down that path to healing.  But that does not have to stop you.  You can heal without her.  And I hate to suggest this but forgiveness is a good way.  Forgiveness is not about whitewashing what happened - it is about disengaging you from the toxic resentment and hatred. And it does not require that you have a relationship or even desire a relationship with her.  But it frees you from the hurt and anger so that you can go on.

just a thought - Gaining Strengt