To Nic and All Children of N Parents

[Tinkergirl]

Hi All,

I felt the need to make a new post in response to Nic's very emotional post in the "ring true" thread...although I posted it there I wanted to reiterate it here, plus bring your attention to another very helpful message board:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Adult-ChildrenOFNarcissits/

I find this board especially helpful because it specifically deals with adult children of N parents...so many of you are dealing with spousal/relationship N issues that I am not experiencing; this yahoo board really helps me understand my past and focus on my future as an adult child of N abuse.  The Voicelenssness board is very helpful in a broader sense.  Please, everyone feel free to reply to this post, including Nic!

Here is my reply to you, Nic:

Thank you so much for sharing your post on this subject. It sounds like you not only have to deal with an abusive N mom, but also alcoholic on top of it all. I"m so sorry for your childhood experiences. It sounds like you are continuing to let this affect you so deeply, as you say still "spending time figuring them out"....and that they still take no responsibility to this day for what happened.

I just recently "divorced" my N mom and her husband (not my father) because she absolutely refused to acknowledge or repair any past or present wrongdoings; in fact she demanded to see "physical evidence" of her abuse as a child, denied any physical, emotional, verbal abuse that still continues to this day. One thing I have learned in therapy, books, from peers....you cannot and will not be able to change/save the N parent (or those who defend her). Although I have guilt and question myself (even though my brother can validate our violent upbringing) the only way to start really loving myself and enjoying my life is leaving their drama and craziness behind. To not allow them to abuse me, in any way, anymore.

I hope you come to this realization as soon as you can, because spending one more day trying to figure your parents out is a waste of your precious time and energy. Don't continue to play the "what if" game with your past; it is what it is but you can make your own present....you can't change the past. Learn from it, heal and move to a better place; and fill it with people who will take the time to "figure you out" because you are a wonderful human being who can become a loving individual, free of this pain.

[October]

Hi All,

I felt the need to make a new post in response to Nic's very emotional post in the "ring true" thread...although I posted it there I wanted to reiterate it here, plus bring your attention to another very helpful message board:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Adult-ChildrenOFNarcissits/

Everyone is different, and I am sure that a lot of people can be helped by the above message board, but I would like to say that I found it a very hostile environment.  As long as I spoke about my N family, it was ok, but when I spoke of my own weaknesses or failings I found myself condemned by many people, over and over again, and I felt really hounded.  In particular I had detailed what I have seen happen to my nephews, and was condemned for not reporting it to a child protection agency, when I had in fact done everything I could, but emotional abuse and even physical abuse is not enough sometimes to get people to listen, and I was trying to say, this is what I see and I can do nothing, and there is no-one to listen to me, and I was amazed at the strength of condemnation which I received.  I was not the only one, I saw this happen to another woman as well, for a different reason, again to do with admitting vulnerability or weakness.

I don't want to put anyone off trying the board, because I did get some valuable support from it, but be careful of revealing too much too soon.

[Nic]

Hello,

you are absolutely right Tinkergirl. Everyday brings me closer to getting out of my relationship with my parents, including trying to save them etc etc.  Rationally I know you are bang on.  I would say that I am 85% there Tinkergirl.  I read a book recently, a christian publication about the ten commandments.  It is a book written in the fifties I believe or before.  The commandment Honour thy father and thy mother, yes that one! Well that book had great news in it.  The author tells the reader that it is impossible to honour what is not honourable.
That helped me a whole lot.  You cannot, Nic, honour something that is not honourable, I told myself and repeat to myself continually!.  When I look back at how my parents were with me it becomes very apparent that I was overdoing the guilt thing with this commandment ( the catholic in me?).  Therefore if God himself does not expect us to honour what is not honourable then why I am doing it?  In fact, with each ticking second, I realize how vital it is for me and my wife to get away from this environment.
Stumbling blocks and complications have inhibited a quick getaway however.  My wife and I have been ensnared by my N parents, they are taking us to court ( have been once already July 17th, things adjourned pending a certain evaluation) and we cannot disappear however much we would love to.
Something, someone, God maybe is keeping us in this situation.  We are forced to confront and go through it no matter how scared we are, especially me..my wife can't stand and no longer has any respect for my Parents.  We refer to them as our two little locusts!
I guess I am still grieving what could have been.  My parents would/will most likely deny anything I could accuse them of, that is of an emotional or abuse nature.
How does one convince a judge as a forty year old that he was abused, made to live with two crazies, Narcisists who feel they own him, and still talk to him as a 4 year old.  I mean I need suggestions here..I don't think it's ever been done!?.
Rosencrantz seems to think I should call their bluff, which I did..i'm now in a wait and see mode knowing full well that when I can escape I will, with my wife and my life..I will run baby run until i'm safely out of their reach.
I consider myself 90% out of their reach emotionally..I do...I  just can't wait to be 100% out of their reach physically.  Not to have to see their faces everyday..
I can taste the freedom..my freedom..I can hear MY VOICE!
Thanks Tinkergirl..i'll try and visit that web site.

[Tinkergirl]

I'm so glad you are on your way out...emotionally and physically.  I'm not sure why/how your parents can take you and your wife to court, unless you are trying to physically "divorce" them legally?  I'd be very interested to hear that story.  As for convincing a judge, I'm hoping the "evaluation" will speak for itself.  Usually they do if they are administered in a fair and just way.  No matter what, you are doing the right thing by continuing to assert your voice...there is little else you can do.  As scary and hurtful as it may currently be to both you and your wife, the alternative of silence and playing "pretend" in their abusive world would be and endless life of pain and untruths for you.  You are so strong to continue to do whatever it takes to reclaim your right to the truth, and your own life.  

Don't back down or be discouraged by a judge or anyone for that matter.  If you try to stay as factual as possible, listing as many examples as you can remember....and show how it continues to affect you to this day.  Rational people (we hope most judges are) will see the effects and pattern of abusive behavior...your parents' masquerade will fall right before his eyes if they are themselves in court.  I have found it personally helpful to try to make lists over the years of offences, since I think the victims' minds are so easy to forgive/make excuses, or convince oneself that the abuse wasn't as bad as we remembered.  

I too like  you have found very few books to tell me it is "okay" not to honor the mother, especially as her daughter.  Many tell you that it is "typical mother/daughter friction", that you should appreciate her and her flaws...etc.  I am not a student of the bible, so it is a very helpful passage you quoted to "not honor those that are not honorable"....including mother and father.  i look at my daughter and love her for who she is, who she will become, not because "i own her" or have any rights to her love because we are related.  a concept my mother will never respect.

I will be the first to offer you a new pair of running shoes to "run baby run" as soon and as fast as you can...keep us posted, Nic!

[rosencrantz]

I think I've been going soft, too Rob.  There was a post on this board which bothered me, I lost my voice and then started to go 'soft'...

I ALWAYS used to forget and then re-start the dreadful cycle of getting close and being violently thrown back.  This time, I experienced my 'forgetting' because I had my husband there to remind me.  So I kept actively remembering, and reminding myself of exactly what happens.  I read these forums, I read books. I re-read everything.

Don't forget, never forget...'get out and stay out' says one of the books.  I know it's necessary.  Nevertheless, I also know that my mother knows me soooo well, that she can push my buttons without even looking.

I'll never be safe until I've got no buttons to push - and then I probably won't have any feelings or emotions left - ???

There's a small child in here saying "I want my mum".  What a big target of a button that provides.  And my husband is completely fed up with me - bored to tears with all this.  There's noone else to talk to - I don't feel like spending weeks in counselling just trying to convince someone that this is serious stuff that can destroy you every time they try the reconiliation route...

No conclusion tonight...

[Nic]

Hello all,
first off Tinkergirl, my story about my parents is in here somewhere.  I posted it a few days ago or maybe last week.  In a "nut" shell ! don't believe I said that..the story is that my Nparents live next door..they have developed a hatred of my wife "because you haven't been the same person Nic since you married that woman", you know the routine..we bought a property together and now that we are not "nice" to them, they want to force a sale based on that...plus much more..but they have requested a hearing/court case to punish us, simply because they are allowed to.  When you buy a property with someone else you must split it, sell it or buy the other owner(s) out..all must agree on one of the options.  We wanted a split, they want an all out sale because it is the most damaging to us.  I'll keep you up on the story..suffice it to say that I have to somehow explain to the judge that my parents are crazy N control freaks and that this is one out of many episodes of abuse.  I called their bluff as Rosencrantz puts it, and now I'm waiting to see how much farther they are willing to go..I'm ready and so is my wife.  One way or another we must get them the h ll away from us!
Rob and Rosencrantz, you need some words of encouragement. Some fellowshipping a la Nic!  Please be encouraged to know for sure that as victims of these horrible Ns, we ourselves have not turned into unfeeling, horrible beasts ourselves.  Of course we grieve the family that we didn't have and will do so periodically.  Sometimes we'll go for years without doubting our resolve to have them out of our lives for our mental and spiritual well-being, for our marriages, for our children.  It took us a great deal of courage to acknowledge our pain, our systematic and continued abuse during our entire lives up to the point when the light came on, and the angels started waiving the red flags.  We simply noticed, took heed of the warning.  Like pioneers we went out on a limb to check it out..and there it was.  The deep crevasse of having survived this long without a voice.  And now we're talking..we're spreading the news, we've got a voice, some of us louder than others, some softer..and a safe forum to express it and test it out.
But, the dark cloud of our voiceless years makes an appearance every now and then.  We don't hate our parents and they don't hate us, are we agreed on that?  We hate the way they were/are and we are unreachable to them especially now that we have stopped playing the game.
We are building new lives, we are doing major reconstruction and/or renovations here.
Cheer up, look up, speak up my dear friends.  It hurts doesn't it, all of this, leaving what could have been but in truth never was.  When you stop and think about it Rob, we're hanging on to the illusion, why?  Because it feels familiar still, after all the work you've done, all the knowledge you have acquired and plus the wonderful support you have from your wife.  You too Rosencrantz, your hubby totally supports you.  I can understand his getting bored with all this. My wife gets real bored sometimes especially with our two little locusts living next door and their entourage.  She's bored but not with me.  Perhaps your hubby like my wife are just anxious to move on ( with us!!) to something better huh?
I think we have to make a conscious effort to stick to the truth.  Remember we were all taught to deny our feelings, negate our importance and replace it with our parents' .  As long as we worshipped them things were fine, right? remember?
No matter how much it hurts this entire situation has forced us to face ourselves.  This is where we are, right now.  We must concentrate on rebuilding.  Let's not deny these momentary bouts of doubt.
Rob I think the idea of grand parents rights in this case totally revolting.  There might be a battle for you there, however, don't abandon your children to your N parents..supervision only, force fields if you have too.  Use your voice to counter them ( your parents) and I dare say as Rosencrantz suggested call their bluff..I'm betting that once our parents are faced with appearances in court they'll cower away..bullies always cower away!
I'm starting to really love you guys..I'm genuinely concerned about your well-being and I wish you the best.  I'm in the mood for support! I'm returning by this post the love and support you have shown me in posts past!
Nic

[rosencrantz]

Weepy, weepy - thanks Nic!  That was a great thing to say.  

What's on my mind right now is concern at how 'call their bluff' might have been interpreted.  My thesis is that the fear of abandonment will stop them in their tracks.  Anything that gives them 'show time' is likely to get them all excited.  

Have you had legal advice that you need to convince a judge of their abusive goals??  ie do the underlying psychological reasons for their behaviour have any bearing on the case???

I don't know the legal sytem over there but the real challenge tends to be that the legal system is based on rules, not justice or fairness.  And the law usually requires you to be totally matter of fact and aren't much interested in psychological factors - mostly because you can't 'prove' them easily.  

YOU know the underlying reasons but what are the 'facts' here.  Refuste what's not true in the shortest possible way.  Dispassionately, how do each of the options affect you and how do they affect them.  Which one causes the least financial difficulty for both parties?  Which one causes the least upheaval for both parties?  Is there one option which makes (logical) sense for everyone???  How did they manage to get more of the land than you'd intended???  (You knew there could be problems based on previous relationship so you wanted a greater separation but...)   A judge over here would be more likely to be persuaded by facts like that.

If you handle things in a factual way, it shows up their irrationality even more.  Most 'normal' people just get bored quite quickly by people who are pulling their strings - judges included.

Have they really put forward some kind of case based on your 'cruelty' to them - like a divorce??!  I'm astounded.  They want 'daddy' (authority figure) to tell you, you've been a bad boy, Nic!!!  LOL  Sad, really.

[Nic]

Oi gewalt! Keine na hora poo poo poo! ( phonetics mine! LoL)
Just for you Rosencrantz, i'm still laughing at your other posts, your humourous ones about N types!
Quickly now, I haven't much time..yes we did get legal advice, and yes here in this part of the commonwealth the law is the law.  I will state my parents' repeated tricks and banishments and financial traps set to both my brother and I throughout the years to support the fact that they are being nuisances at this stage of the game.
They have a right, according to the law to ask for the property which we bought commonly to be sold.  They have sworn an affidavit stating that my wife and I have paid for "nothing" which isn't true, they also say in their affidavit that life there has become intolerable ( again because of us) and that we had promised them "security" in their old age!  I wonder how many other adult children have been accused by their parents of not providing them security.  I will stress in court that I thought I had a relationship with my parents and not a service contract..and the like..pointing out the various N tactics and ploys they have used throughout my experience with them.  Ideally my wife and I would like the property split where they sell the river front (90%) and we just keep access to it and live on our half without them..plus they could keep the house and we would build a little lovenest of our own..
Anyway try being reasonable with an N..my dad ( whose more or less loaded!) cannot accept that I would have a prosperous life or at least one that is as good as his and he wants to bring me down and like you say he wants the authority figure Le Juge to tell me I was naughty since I wont believe him..what a mess, but listen I'm on a mission to get them away from me and my wife.
More later ciao! Nic

[Jake]

Thank you for an excellent message, TG.  My older sister has severed any contact with our N mother, and after a recent 2-day visit with her I came to re-appreciate her decision.   We also had an N father, I believe, who has since passed away.  For a long long long time I have been struggling with gaining a positive sense (or better yet relationship with ) self, and am frequently frustrated by the tiny little steps forward and sometimes bigger steps backward involved in the process.  You sound like someone who has made major strides, and working to get there myself I can only guess at all of the hard work you've done.