Author Topic: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?  (Read 3599 times)

teartracks

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Hi,

How prudent is it to allow one person's subjective reality to ride rough shod over another's objective reality and vice versa? 

Wouldn't that be kind of like a knifeless lobotomy?  Or did they use a drill...can't remember. 

tt
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 02:01:13 AM by teartracks »

Hopalong

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2007, 02:38:06 AM »
Not so prudent, I think, TT.

But I think anybody raised by or dominated by an N would come to ask that question.
We're not comfortable with the space between people...instead of a comfortable thing, it feels more like desperate abandonment or smothering engulfment. We don't know it can be comfortable. Even...something you don't even worry about one way or another.

I think that's why we fight so hard sometimes, and why we can be so defensive and frightened.

When I catch it, and can stop myself being upset that another just flat is unswayed by anything I express, I feel better.

Hops
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Ami

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2007, 06:47:56 AM »
Dear Hops,
    Could you explain what you mean in this last post. .. I may be being"emotionally dense" Thanks so much ,Hops
  This is a great topic and I will think about it and get back later.                                    Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Stormchild

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2007, 07:52:15 AM »
What you perceive as real is real in its effects upon you.

That is why hypnosis works, including self-hypnosis, but it's why deception does too. And self-deception.

It's the core thesis of Seligman, the whole point of his 'reframing' concept.

A little girl complains that her father molests her, and is not believed. She is severely punished by her mother, and the molestation continues.

A woman calls 911; the police find 'a domestic situation', make no arrest, and leave. That evening her husband kills her.

One of Jeffrey Dahmer's victims experienced almost exactly that. He managed to escape, bleeding and partly unclothed, and actually ran to a police car on the street outside, and Dahmer managed to fast-talk the cops into believing they were acting out some kind of S&M thing together. The cops handed the young man over to Dahmer. His head was later discovered in the freezer.

Who is to say, who is to judge what is 'subjective'?

When that little girl grows up, and insists on being heard about that or other abuses, will she be accused of riding roughshod over people? Or will she be heard?

I personally favor believing the most vulnerable party in any such exchange; the one who has the least to lose in terms of 'image' and 'prestige'. Socially, the decks are stacked against such persons. Abusers know this and take all the advantage of it that they can. A momentary reversal of that situation might not be merely therapeutic, it could be life saving.

After all, you can always change your mind later on.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 08:48:53 AM by Stormchild »
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Stormchild

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2007, 07:58:12 AM »
One of my favorite authors tells it another way.

An old woman is walking down the street. A man runs up, tackles her, rolls her in a mud puddle and smears mud on her face and hair. These are all facts.

What do you think of that man?

Now consider these additional facts. She was walking past a loading dock, and a 55-gallon drum of solvent sparked and exploded. She was splattered by the burning solvent, and her hair and clothing were aflame. The man saved her life, and his hands were severely burned.

What do you think of him now?

In both cases you have facts as a basis to judge from. But in the second case, you have more of them. And the whole picture changes.

When you can get facts, don't ignore them. And when you can get more of the facts, don't ignore them, either. That's the only real chance we have to be objective about anything... to get the facts, and see what they tell us.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 08:00:28 AM by Stormchild »
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

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bigalspal

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2007, 11:25:33 AM »
TT,
Boy, I tell you I lived all my life in that  forced reality! Until my eyes were opened on this board.
It's like I was a dog after he jumped in a pond & then SHOOK himself free off all the water & pond crap & became clean.
I'm by no means clean, but I'm getting there! I'm I think I'm pretty angry. I'm pissed I BELIEVED all the crap she dished out!  But a helpless child will believe what she's told.
Not anymore.
Love,
Bigalspal
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mudpuppy

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2007, 12:22:14 PM »
tt,

You seem to be asking about three different questions. The name of the thread seems to ask a pretty simple one. Things, including realities, that are objective are real and actually exist regardless of our filters and are therefore more accurate. Realities that are subjective are our internal interpretations of reality and inescapably less accurate.

If I get your second question (and I may not) you seem to be asking if it is prudent for a person who sees the world pretty much as it is (objectively) to allow someone who does not (subjectively) to impose their worldview on the first party's objective view of things. I think that depends on the situation. It's not very prudent to allow a psychopath's subjectivity to be imposed on our relative objectivity at any time. But it might be very prudent to allow a young child's subjectivity to override our objectivity when we're laying in a field watching different cloud shapes float by. As almost always it comes down to the heart. If it involves malice then it is a lobotomy, but if it is innocent, perhaps it isn't so bad sometimes to let a little subjectivity in.
The vice versa part is a little tougher. If the assumption is that we possess the relatively objective reality, then when do we run rough shod over other's subjectivity? I guess that is also situational. When does the potential or real harm of subjectivity make it necessary for relative objectivity to intervene? A kid fantasizing about clouds in a field is fine. A kid who ties a blanket around his neck and thinks he can fly off the roof is not. A psycho in a cave by himself can have all the subjective reality he wants as far as I'm concerned. But when he is harming others it is prudent for all parties, including the psycho, for a little objectivity to be applied to the bridge of his nose, usually figuratively but when necessary literally.

And just to illustrate the problem with objectivity, what appear to be facts and Ns use of both; suppose in Stormy's example we find a glowering man standing over an old lady who is laying in a mud puddle and whose face and hair is covered with mud and who is loudly proclaiming the man just assaulted her. The facts we don't know are that she is a malicious N who hates the guy and threw herself down in the mud and he's glowering because he's had twenty years of this kind of insanity from her. Ns are masters at creating what looks like objective reality to outsiders and their victims are forced to try and convince the outsider a false one has been created. Which leads me to a question of my own, why do most people seem so eager to accept the first version of events? IOW why do so many people allow seemingly objective reality to be determined by others, usually the first one they hear?

mud

Hopalong

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2007, 01:33:11 PM »
Hi Ami,

I mean, I think to survivors of Ns questions of how we have a different view from someone else who matters to us, are very threatening. And I think it has to do with a porous or puddingy sence of boundaries around ourselves, our own separateness. If we had been raised without invasive smothering, or cruelty, we would be "comfortable in our own skin". In fact, we'd probably seldom stop to ponder our self's "skin". We'd take for granted that we can think one way and another person another way, and unless it were a major issue, probably would be more focused on well,then, let's see about a compromise or solution, and then keep moving forward...because moving forward is what we naturally do.

It's like the difference between an old steam train chugging along the track, and the straining heaving effort it takes it to start moving.

I think survivors of Ns spend a lot more energy just MOVING than others do.

That said, I also think survivors of Ns can at some point become so healthy that they too, live in their own skins comfortably and chug along the track. But I do think it takes therapy. (Sorry.)

hugs
Hops
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Ami

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2007, 07:53:43 PM »

That said, I also think survivors of Ns can at some point become so healthy that they too, live in their own skins comfortably and chug along the track. But I do think it takes therapy. (Sorry.)




THIS is what I would call '"the good news" and the "bad news"                                Love    Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

teartracks

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2007, 09:10:01 PM »


Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your valiant attempts to decipher and comment on this thread.  I appreciate it all.   Actually, I need to give this a lot of thought and perhaps reframe the question again in the future.  You're a good bunch to hang out with.  I've learned so much.  Still consider myself a question asker more than an answer giver though.

Love,
tt

Stormchild

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2007, 11:50:26 AM »
Thanks, Mud. This is actually a relief.

I pushed you pretty hard to make an overt choice. Sorry, but I was very tired - I wanted your actions to match your words, or vice versa. It's a great relief to know where you stand, even though I wish you'd made a different choice.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

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Stormchild

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2007, 11:52:13 AM »
Gonna talk about me now.

I've noticed an interesting dynamic here, and trying to talk to Mud about it privately resulted in what you've seen upthread; so at this point, I might as well talk about it publicly.

In my FOO, there were four people; my mother, my father, my sister and me. I found myself, as a child, regularly and predictably [but not continually] ganged up on by my mother and sister, regularly and predictably [but not continually] covertly abused by my mother, and completely unable to obtain any support from my father, or even an admission from him that something very obvious was really going on. I've talked about a number of specific events from my FOO on various occasions here; this stuff went on for decades.

This dynamic has been recreated here several times - I think this is the fourth time since I've joined the board.

I seem to draw fire from female bullies in pairs, here. I've watched one particular female pair off with three different partners, and skirmished with each set.

Just as in my FOO, it isn't continuous; they don't bully everyone, and they don't constantly bully me. And, just as in my FOO, I've been more or less unable to obtain any support from a male claiming to be concerned with my welfare; if anything, I get the opposite. Just as in my FOO.

This, though, isn't my FOO. I'm not a helpless little kid bewildered by behavior I can't even name, let alone begin to comprehend. I'm a perceptive, articulate adult, who has learned to believe what she sees, learned what these behaviors are and what they mean, and can very clearly articulate what she understands.

I've been working very hard to understand the repetition compulsion, because it's hugely at play in this series of events. This is apparently some kind of old familiar pattern for all four players, or it wouldn't  set up so strongly here. But any one of the four can choose not to play it anymore. And I am very hopeful that I'm finding the means of eliminating my contribution to this recurring situation. In one of those beautiful paradoxes, I think it's the very fact that I've gone through it repeatedly here, that is going to help me most.

Because this is cyberspace. Our words don't vanish into thin air. Even if someone pulls a thread, if we've kept a copy of our posts, our words remain. We can revisit events exactly as they occurred - this is something that is simply impossible in realspace. We can cool off, calm down, and go back and see for ourselves if we were overreacting to something, or if it was really there.

And we can also go back and see for ourselves how we really behave. How we really react. What we really said to so-and-so before they got so mad at us.

We thus have at least a chance to overcome our own defenses and distortions, and to identify and come to terms with the defenses and distortions of others.

I've said this before, but I haven't gotten to the next part ever. The next part is this.

The way to healing is through mindfulness and detachment. Not merely meditation and prayer type mindfulness and detachment, but the kind of mindfulness and detachment that brings our own unconscious processes and assumptions up to the level of conscious awareness and allows us to actually look at them.

It is possible. People have been pursuing it through journaling, through discussion/support groups, through cognitive therapy, etc.

Well... what is this place, if not a combination journal and discussion group? What better place for the serious practice of mindfulness and detachment than here?

As a result of being and interacting here - here! - I have discovered that one of my 'tragic flaws' is precisely my need to articulate what I find amiss. That desperate, desperate need to 'get through', or merely 'get heard'. Almost invariably, I find that when I try to 'get through' to someone about something this big, this painful, their response is to either abandon me, turn on me, or both. Straight out of my FOO, and I'm sick & tired of it.

Now - this isn't Poor Stormy The Victim talking here. Because I've realized, as a result of the work I've been doing HERE, that one key to stopping my repetition compulsion lies in my tragic flaw. I keep trying to get through to the very people who do not want me getting through to them! It's a learned 'learning disability', I swear to God, just like amnesia for abuse, amnesia for betrayal. And I seem to be unlearning it, finally, although this last bit with Mud et. al. here doesn't seem to suggest that, I know. Bear with me.

Look at how I interacted with The Jercque. I was friendly, receptive to his attentions, reciprocated with attentions of my own, but I did not let him stampede me into too much too soon. I watched how his actions compared to his words. I looked for flags - green as well as red. I didn't start with the assumption that this guy was a jercque; in fact, based on his history and professional background, I started with the opposite assumption, if any.

But I stayed mindful. Somehow. Somehow I didn't let my own loneliness and desire for companionship and all that other good stuff cloud my judgement, I didn't jump, I took my time. And he couldn't sustain the pretense past a certain point, and then I didn't waste effort or energy on 'closure', I just skedaddled.

I've talked to my therapist about this several times. His bottom line, which I'm trying to internalize, is that people who really care about you don't want to hurt you. If they hurt you, they want to know it, and they are going to want to stop. It's up to you [i.e., me] to make sure that you aren't inviting hurt, and that you don't wear your heart on your sleeve inappropriately; but people who genuinely care about you don't want to hurt you, and if they do, they'll want to take responsibility for their contribution to it.

There is a corollary to this, of course. If someone hurts you repeatedly in the same way, skedaddle. You may or may not make some effort to get through to them - if that effort is met with hostility, defensiveness, or some other type of resistance, skedaddle. They've told you what matters most in this situation, and relating to you isn't even close. You don't owe them anything. Scram.

I'm learning to skedaddle, and I'm learning to keep my thoughts to myself, believe it or not, while evaluating skedaddling - this is much more obvious in realspace than it has been here. At the same time, I'm learning to set better external boundaries. It's what I'm substituting for the thing that didn't help, that tired old business of trying to get through to people on the assumption that they care. They don't have to care for me to set boundaries with them. I am learning to save the disclosures for the people who actually do care, and will hear me.

One last thing.

I didn't just skedaddle with the FOO re-enactment here, and there was a reason for that, one that I wasn't consciously aware of until the very last moments myself.

The single most important piece of unfinished business from my FOO was this: I never forced my father to take a stand. I pleaded, I showed him over and over what was going on, but I never demanded that he pick one or the other, me or them. I chose not to, in fact, because I knew that if I forced the issue I would have to leave the family entirely, and that would have broken his heart. [How did I know this? Because I got very sick my last year in college, and the docs thought it was terminal, and he aged 20 years overnight. He literally turned into a stooped, shambling, trembling, pale old man... and when I came home with the good news from the definitive workup, I saw him shed those years while I was I showing him the lab results and telling him what they meant. It is as vivid in my memory as if it happened yesterday. He would have died before me, I believe, if I had indeed had what it first appeared I had.] I couldn't kill my father as the price of attaining my own freedom. I'm not sorry I made that choice - but this time I knew perfectly well it wouldn't kill Mud to take a stand, and this time I had a chance to find out how the story would end if I did insist that 'my father' choose.

Did I use people? Was I unkind? Some might think so. But I was not the sole person responsible for the FOO re-enactment. I didn't go looking for it; I couldn't stop it - God knows I tried. Every person involved was responsible for their role. So I was back in my FOO again, whether or not I wanted to be, and this time I decided to press 'my father' to make his choice - to insist that he choose overtly, in the full light of day. Everyone else involved could have changed their part of the story too. Perhaps if this had happened, we might all have found freedom together.

This is what breakthroughs actually look like. They aren't always pretty. Sometimes they are very painful. Sometimes they involve seeing things we wish to God we could do anything but see. Sometimes they involve saying goodbye to people we would have liked to keep in our lives. The important thing is that we gain by going through them, even if we don't gain the things and connections we hoped to gain.

I am going to go post a reply to Sea Storm on another thread, and then I will be taking a break from the board for awhile. This whole incident and its denouement is bound to stir up feelings in people. I understand that and respect it, but for me, this incident is over now.

I'm also spending more time in realspace recovery groups now, and I think I need to interact with people out there, where we breathe in the same rooms.

I don't think I'm perfect here. I don't think I did everything right. I regret that I didn't understand  my 'tragic flaw' much sooner, and that I couldn't find a better way to break the FOO reenactment spell. I'm sorry this has ended with Mud hating my guts. But I freely accept being hated, if that's what it takes to be free. Weirdly, seeing all this, and having it come to a head, has freed me from the negative feelings I was having about it.

Tracks: See how true it is: what is perceived as real, is real in its effects. Was this my FOO? Of course not. Was anyone intending consciously to act like my FOO? I doubt it. But the dynamic was there, all the same, and because it was a replay of my old unfinished business, I have finally, by the grace of God, been able to finish it.
The only way out is through, and the only way to win is not to play.

"... truth is all I can stand to live with." -- Moonlight52

http://galewarnings.blogspot.com

http://strangemercy.blogspot.com

http://potemkinsoffice.blogspot.com

mudpuppy

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2007, 10:54:24 AM »
Quote
I'm sorry this has ended with Mud hating my guts. But I freely accept being hated, if that's what it takes to be free.

I don't hate you, your guts or anyone else's for that matter. What that means in regard to your freedom you'll have to decide for yourself.

We are however all free to describe our own feelings and motives. I hope everyone here will refrain from publicly assigning to others feelings and motives which they may very well not possess as has happened here. I also hope everyone will think about the consequences of assigning roles to other people regarding some issue they are dealing with. None of us are surrogate spouses, siblings or parents for others to work their issues out on.

mud

axa

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Re: Subjective Reality vs Objective Reality. Whose Is More Accurate?
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2007, 11:42:36 AM »
WOW

I don't read all the posts all the time and must have missed some of the issues going on here.  I feel a need to say my piece.

Storm,

I have not been aware of you being bullied, if you feel that that is sad.  I am impressed with your dealing with the jerque and hope that I will be aware enough in the event of ever meeting someone again to run as soon as I see the flags.

From my perspective when I post on this board I give my opinion.  Some may agree and some may disagree, I am not sure which is the most important.  The agreement may give me support the disagreement may challenge me to look at myself and learn from the encounter.  The one thing I am sure of is that there are many of us here with many different perspectives.  I believe each of us is free to choose our own way, to respond, not respond, and also I believe we are responsible for our own feelings.  If someone here posts something which "upsets" me then I see it as my responsibility to look at what it is that is pressing my buttons.  I have learned that the pressing of my buttons and the examination of same, by myself, have been my way forward.  Fundamentally, I am saying if I have a reaction, it is my reaction.  I hope I am making sense.

With regard to the FOO issues.  For me, I think the dynamics only become reenactments of my FOO issues when I play my old script.

I have no idea if I am making myself clear but I do hope so.  I guess this is my subjective reality for what its worth.

Take care,

axa