Author Topic: Space Invasion  (Read 7519 times)

Ami

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2007, 07:37:25 AM »
Dear Hope,
  I can see how you put your thoughts together -- step by step. This is a great "working" together of the voices on the board-. The Bible says,"There is safety in  many counselors". Doesn't that apply here very well?                                               Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Certain Hope

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2007, 09:19:49 AM »
Hey again,

Lighter...   "a good gershlappity"   I saw this last night just before I shut down the computer and grinned  :)
It's wonderful that you gave your mother that reality rundown and she responded so well.
Sometimes I think it's like we individuate ourselves once early on (in adolescence?) and then somehow blur back together with parents (at least in their minds... and maybe in our own, too, to a certain extent) as we have children of our own. That seems to be what's happened with me.
Earlier this year I gave them one of those gershlappities re: my own religious beliefs (with differ greatly from theirs, with which I was raised.)
I got silence from my mother and numerous articles from dad which pointed to the fact that my belief is heresy.
In all fairness, after years of general silence, that was a doozy of a topic for me to pick on which to "communicate".

So I read this last night and then went to bed... and cried. I don't know how it began, it just did. My eye was watering and suddenly I was crying. Talked with my husband and cried some more... because my parents have indeed been supportive (in their own way - financially and physically) through my divorce struggles. It's the emotional component that's always been missing... missing in them and in me.
It's been missing in me because I didn't see it modeled. I can only assume that their debilitation is based on lack of modeling, as well.
The fact is, my way of reaching out for emotional contact was destructive and rule-breaking (by Christian standards).
My mother and dad value the rules too much to do that, so they never learned. Everything in me that did reach out to others - - - my mother views as weakness. And yet I know that she envies that in me. That must have put her into quite a bind.

Well, my husband says that he's come to terms with his own mother by simply saying, "She did the best that she could with what she knew."  He doesn't try to fix her... or convince her... that she's okay. He doesn't return her calls, either....  .
I kept up communication with her for some time, because I highly prized her willingness to delve into the realm of emotions.
Very recently, though, I learned that's not all it's cracked up to be. She dropped her email correspondence with me - cold - and sent my husband's birthday greeting through my email, with an icy note re: her being unable to locate his email address and perhaps he could read it on my computer. No "hello"... no "thank you"... no "I'll reply to your last letter soon..."   Nothing. And nothing since.

Last night, I said, well... I wanted to feel these things (just not all at once!!)... and now what? What's the purpose? And the answer was,
so that I can hold the entire picture in view at once and stop splitting the good from the bad, ponging from one to the other depending on the circumstances of the moment. An integrated view. God help me maintain it.
And thank you, Lighter, from my heart... for giving me the gentle push in that direction.

Thank you Hops and Pennyplant and Ami...
It's good to have these discussions someplace other than within my own head. Don't think I'd best write their letters after only 4 hours sleep, but soon. Nothing huge and heavy, just some clear statements - with love. Because I do love my parents.. I just don't "need" them to be anyone other than who they are. That's a need I can't afford to nurture.
Maybe I can share with them a bit of my own "evolution", if they're interested. I dunno.

And yes, this board works together in wonderful ways :) I've learned so much here... and I wouldn't trade that experience for anything.
Thank you all.

With love,
Hope

dandylife

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2007, 10:25:51 AM »
Hope,
I see you react strongly to the triangulation game that your dad is playing.

Also, the disrespectful attitude toward your mother.

These are abusive behaviors. Of course you are upset.

It's not that he's "weak". oh, no. This man is abusive. That's why you feel sick around his behavior. Your insides are telling you so. You can't ignore it.

It's gone on a long time, but it's never too late to call out bad behavior.

I'd just say outright next time he does it, "Don't pull me in to your argument with mom. Talk to her." Walk away.

When he says something disrespectful about your mother, say, "I find that statment disrespectful of mom. I don't want to hear you talk like that." Walk away.

He'll get it if he has any brain cells left!

Love
Dandylife
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

Certain Hope

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2007, 11:13:30 AM »
Hope,
I see you react strongly to the triangulation game that your dad is playing.

Also, the disrespectful attitude toward your mother.

These are abusive behaviors. Of course you are upset.

It's not that he's "weak". oh, no. This man is abusive. That's why you feel sick around his behavior. Your insides are telling you so. You can't ignore it.

It's gone on a long time, but it's never too late to call out bad behavior.

I'd just say outright next time he does it, "Don't pull me in to your argument with mom. Talk to her." Walk away.

When he says something disrespectful about your mother, say, "I find that statment disrespectful of mom. I don't want to hear you talk like that." Walk away.

He'll get it if he has any brain cells left!

Love
Dandylife

Hi Dandylife,

Yes, my reaction is still quite strong, but my feeling of being torn by his triangulating is easing.
A large part of my own reaction was self-centered, in that I have parts of both of these people within myself. In other words, the part of me that's like her, that identifies with her, is what was reacting so strongly. Once that is settled within me, I can respond appropriately with statements such as you offered here...   "I find that statment disrespectful of mom. I don't want to hear you talk like that."

You see, before, all I could come up with was "That's not right!!!!". Then I could spiel off several pages of judgmental rant, proceed to tear that up and pitch it into the trash, and absolutely nothing got accomplished. This has been my reaction to nearly every conflict in my life. It's what I learned from my mother.
But I've been so internally enmeshed with each of them (unbeknownst to them, likely) that I didn't know how to resolve any of it, so I just carried BOTH of them along with me into every relationship and let them duel it out in my head. Ouch!

Last night, I realized that I FEEL sorry for them both. I don't have to pit one against the other and try to balance their scales...
and I don't have to allow them to cast their weight onto my scales. It's okay to just feel sorry for each of them - they are worthy of that.
They're also worthy of my respect for the good things they've done and of my mistrust for their obvious inability to relate to others as mature adults.
The entire picture is coming into my view and that's a relief!  A very big relief.

I won't wait for the next time... because there's another issue here, as well. He wrote over a year ago with a request that I dispose of some of his property in a particular manner when he's gone... some things he wants me to have for my son. He proposed this with the tone of "your mother will not approve". Gee, thanks, Dad.
Well, when we were up there visiting, he brought this up to my husband, pointing out one particular item which he believes is of great value and wanting us to know that his intent is for my son to have it - for his education, if need be.
I've told my husband that I have absolutely no intention of following through on this. None.
I will not appear on the scene at such a time as that and present any such "case" to my mother and brother. No way.
It's my feeling now that the most honorable and honoring thing I can do for my Dad is to tell him that... and why.

If that's what he wants, then he needs to set it straight with his wife. What a bequest to leave to me... to do what he refused to do in 59 years of marriage. I'm not even angry about it anymore, now that I can see the rest of the story. I'm only determined.

Thanks so much, Dandylife... once again, talking it out here on the board has clarified so much. I may be ready to write these letters alot sooner than I'd expected.

With love,
Hope







motheroffour

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2007, 12:40:20 PM »
hope,

I hear the strugglings in your mind and they feel so effective as you work your way thru your thoughts to the things that are best for you.  I can hear the kindness and patience you have for yourself.  Traits I need to adopt more often.  Thank you for sharing it here.  You help me learn how to think thru my own "tar-babies", as I like to call them.  Thank you.  I don't know if I have any wisdom to offer yet -- as I am the student in my life right now.  But I can cheerlead and lend support.  SO,  give me an "S" for support and I send it whatever strength I can lend.

--Mof4

p.s.  At least you can talk to your family.  Mine won't allow problem solving conversations.  Shameful! bad!  Ruins the picture that everything is wonderful!

lighter

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2007, 01:30:28 PM »
Hey again,


Well, my husband says that he's come to terms with his own mother by simply saying, "She did the best that she could with what she knew."  He doesn't try to fix her... or convince her... that she's okay. He doesn't return her calls, either....  .





Hope:

I think your husband has the right idea.  It's easier to forgive our parents when we admit that they were doing the best they could, with what they had. 

There's a saying.... "We often judge our parents, and seldom forgive." 

Right. 

I see that. ::gulp:: Now that I'm a parent.... it gives me pause and new perspective.

Forgiving them frees us..... not them..... final analysis.

Your husband figured that out.  He's broken contact.  I respect that. 

I love that you write letters to your parents then tear them up.  Sitting down and writing and ripping and writing and ripping will lead your internalizing your true feelings, sans overwhelming emotions, that cloud the air and keep us confused. 

Hate the confusion.

I love that feeling of working something through to it's final distillation.

Clarity of mind.

Clarity of emotion, no matter what anyone says (that usually throws us into a tail spin?)  we have our thoughts in order, at hand, without laboring through old business.... because we worked it out on paper, right? 

Right.

You sound so ready for clarity in your life. 


Certain Hope

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2007, 01:49:00 PM »
hope,

I hear the strugglings in your mind and they feel so effective as you work your way thru your thoughts to the things that are best for you.  I can hear the kindness and patience you have for yourself.  Traits I need to adopt more often.  Thank you for sharing it here.  You help me learn how to think thru my own "tar-babies", as I like to call them.  Thank you.  I don't know if I have any wisdom to offer yet -- as I am the student in my life right now.  But I can cheerlead and lend support.  SO,  give me an "S" for support and I send it whatever strength I can lend.

--Mof4

p.s.  At least you can talk to your family.  Mine won't allow problem solving conversations.  Shameful! bad!  Ruins the picture that everything is wonderful!

Mof4 - Thank you! These struggles are finally feeling effective to me, too - for once! To read that I am being kind and patient with myself is striking... I hadn't even seen it in that light, but you're right. I must have absorbed this from my husband, who has truly been gentle with me - one of just a few people in my entire life who has - and with the most consistency.
Your support is so very meaningful to me and helpful... I get something out of each exchange here, as I try to apply my new eyes to it. I can't take anything for granted or assume that old answers apply. For whatever reason, I've always had more success in identifying what I do NOT want, then what I actually do need... and so I look here, expecting to find. I've not been disappointed.

Your "P.S." caught me... and I had to question the question. This still amazes me... because what was missing for so long was my ability to ask anything!
Can I talk to my family? Well, yes, I am able to talk "to" them (but not necessarily "with" them?) 
And I understand that I'm able to because they are not screamers, they won't call me names or anything like that... so there's no fear of a rage encounter.
Generally what's happened when I've tried to talk to them is silence/dismay/pursed lips/disinterest/denial/subject dropped.
But that was another time. My few little declarations have come from a different source - a judgmental place from which I was occasionally able to stir up enough anger and resentment to announce: Look here, this is how it is.   And then... silence.

So I'd say I'm paddling along in your boat...
"Mine won't allow problem solving conversations.  Shameful! bad!  Ruins the picture that everything is wonderful!"

Yup... that's familiar. Looking back over my life, I've spoiled that little picture plenty... by accident. This time - it'll be intentional ;)

Love,
Hope


lighter

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #22 on: July 20, 2007, 01:54:44 PM »
hope,


"Mine won't allow problem solving conversations.  Shameful! bad!  Ruins the picture that everything is wonderful!"

Yup... that's familiar. Looking back over my life, I've spoiled that little picture plenty... by accident. This time - it'll be intentional ;)

Love,
Hope




It's freeing to realize we can love our parents, or anyone, the way we need to....

and have it still be Ok. 

Even when it's not the way they want to be loved.


Certain Hope

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2007, 02:03:58 PM »
Lighter,

It's taken me a long while to recognize that my husband is right about this.
Before, it seemed so cold to me... so uncaring...  but then I experienced some of her callousness myself (at least that's how I interpreted it) and felt the tug into her whirlpool of blame...  blaming herself, I think maybe - and needing constant reassurance that he's okay with her, but never being satisfied.
She threw him out when he was 16 - her oldest child, only son.
Whatever will he be able to do to convince her that he's past that?
Apparently nothing.
I'd thought that I could write to her and help to keep communication lines open, but I was mistaken. I can't deny the "creepy" feeling when she'd say,
"Give my love to my son."  Or, in her bday greeting, when she treated me (I felt) as though I were a secretary... or even merely an object, blocking her path...    yes, creepy.

Being a parent myself gives me great pause, too.
I hear you.
I want that freedom and will have it... and I know that you do.

My husband hasn't entirely broken contact... but he has stopped both responding and reacting. He will, on rare occasions, initiate a call. Very rare, and usually, in the past, as a result of my encouragement. And he sends gifts on occasions. So he hasn't cut her out, just made her a non-factor in daily life...  and apparently has no "list" of requirements which would change that.
That puzzles me a bit. It seems he'd have some sort of wish list which might make him more eager to connect with her... but maybe he doesn't even know what would be on that list. I used to think that he should work on that. Now I'm coming to understand.

I am indeed so ready for clarity. These new eyes are still not adjusted to the light, but I've never felt more level and balanced as now. I think that I have faced down the fear and incorporated the rest of myself within... now for the feeling to follow the thinking :)

Thank you for being a part of this!

Love,
Hope

Certain Hope

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2007, 02:05:26 PM »


It's freeing to realize we can love our parents, or anyone, the way we need to....

and have it still be Ok. 

Even when it's not the way they want to be loved.



oops...

That is the truth!! !! !
Lighter, if I ever get a tattoo (which is highly unlikely - lol) THIS is what it would say!

Thank you!

Love, Hope


lighter

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #25 on: July 20, 2007, 02:23:02 PM »
Hope:
I'm still working on loving people the way I need to...... and not the way they require. 

I understand the concept, have internalized it in the past during terrible times but..... have yet to accomplish it in my FOO. 

My general style is to avoid. 

I'm not good at conflict, though I seem to invite it a lot, I suppose it looks that way here, lol. 

LIVE! DIE! judgmental stuff but it's not natural for me.   I'd rather eat a bug than figure all this stuff out.  Or avoid.

I'm a healer. 

I'm the glue person. 

I'm the easy going go with the flow girl. 

That's my place or I'm the judged, weak, selfish, no empathy avoider. 

I am standing up to lot's of people, in lots of ways lately. 

But it's not natural and it's not comfortable and it's still hard hard hard. 

Hard to love them and not just avoid them, I guess. 

This takes so much darned energy, lol. 

Fixing myself and the parts of relationships I can fix. 

Realizing what I can't fix and making peace with the reality of the people in my life. 

Accepting them as they are and protecting myself because that's my job. 

I'm trying to figure out what relationships to keep right now.... as opposed to thinking about how to fix what I can, lol. 

It's just not within my grasp to take on more than I've got right now. 

I'll calm down and focus on that when I have some breathing room.  Understand my true feelings, via all that journaling I keep recommending others do, lol. 

::lightbulb going off!::

I can break patterns of compulsive thoughts by    j o u r n a l i n g   It's so hard to figure out how to get past the lowest points with your face pressed against the glass, lol. 

This board is so good for that.  ::looking for that wonderful black leather bound journal I haven't opened yet::

Certain Hope

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2007, 03:19:09 PM »
Lighter,

I haven't even yet defined the terms... I mean, I don't know what all I may need.  When I find enjoyment in people now, it's different from the past.
Now it's pure pleasure from the interaction, and no longer about whether or not I have "satisfied" them.  The notion that anyone could meet my needs or be willing to do that is still so foreign, after a lifetime of thinking that my goal was to be to have NO needs. That was the first lie to be exposed, I think. I have needs... and that doesn't make me weak, mother dear. Hmm... maybe that's the beginning of my letter to her... or not. Moving right along...

I'm thinking it must be so much more difficult in our original families to put this into practice. It's challenging enough here at home!  But there... so much water under that bridge. I only have one brother, but no contact for 5 years. At this point I'm not even considering (much) what might be involved with attempting to re-connect with him. This will be no quick easy "fix".

About conflict - I was always terrified. Once I determined to face that fear, I'm sure that I entertained far more of it than was wise. Learning to choose battles requires exercise and experience, I'd say. I've not been reading here again for long, but my impression of you is not at all of a person who invites conflict...
but rather of a person who is willing to face it when necessary.

The judgmental stuff is second nature to me... full to overflowing with it from years of practice.
My husband has taken the brunt of that, with grace.
Even once I recognized that, it was so frightening to release it all... what if I miss something?? What if someone makes a fool of me???
What if I walk straight into danger unawares???? 
Burying all those what-ifs is an imperative for me. I do trust God... really I do. Now I just need to begin living like it.

About all the rest - I really don't know what I am... but I am coming to terms with what I'm not.
Avoidance has been a lifelong habit.
Yesterday I removed a dead sparrow from the spot where he'd gotten his foot stuck. For the first time I recognized... I'm not doing this because I have to prove to myself that I'm no longer avoidant. I'm doing it because it needs to be done. My new eyes won't allow for blinders and they're not afraid of the light.

It does take alot of energy in the first practicings :)  I run dry quickly... but then I also notice that I'm being refilled quickly and I thank God for that.

Journaling is a wonderful plan. I feel like that's what I'm doing here. Not sure a black leather volume would work for me just yet... because I need this accountability, lest I click back into reporting mode and disconnect... from myself.

I'm so glad you're here to grow with. I know I skipped a couple things here, but I see words like "compulsive", for instance, and an entire new topic blooms in my brain - lol.  I tend to bite off way more than I can chew and not know when to take a break... so... here I am, breaking.

With much love,
Hope

lighter

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #27 on: July 20, 2007, 03:51:41 PM »
I hear ya, Hope.

What happened with your brother, if you don't mind my asking? 

Certain Hope

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #28 on: July 20, 2007, 04:18:06 PM »
I hear ya, Hope.

What happened with your brother, if you don't mind my asking? 

Well... he's like my Dad gone bad. If he's not NPD (and I really don't know), he's the next thing to it... as though he tapped into the worst traits of both our parents to the 10th power.

Let's see... what happened?

Nothing too dramatic at the end... I told him that I didn't want any more of the trashy emails he was sending me (poor husband/mean, nasty wife/really bad taste) and never heard another word. I take that back... when our aunt passed away (she lived in his state) - I got an email with subject line:  Aunt ______ died.

He's an entrepeneur, a self-proclaimed "star"(vocalist), loaded with funds but they're all tied up in property and then he conveniently "forgets" his wallet when his impoverished-sister-with-4 kids-to-support is in the store with him so she has to pay - repeatedly, promise breaker, truth-twister, manipulator, mysoginist (once referred to my "slut days" in front of one of my children and repeatedly made comments about my physical characteristics when I was a teen/young adult, loud-mouthed, pushy, bully...

on the positive side - he flew my oldest daughter down here once with him and his girlfriend, shortly after we moved here...
harangued my daughter so badly on that trip that his girlfriend left him the moment they returned home.
He's now married to # 5 (I think) - no natural children, but this wife has a son.

My Dad caters to him, too. Parents' home is nearby brother's summer "cottage", on acreage. He refers to them as his "caretakers".

I'm sure he has some other redeeming qualities, but those escape me at the moment.

Clearly I have alot more work to do.
 :shock:

Love,
Hope

lighter

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Re: Space Invasion
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2007, 05:02:45 PM »
Ummmm.... that about summed up what happened between you and your brother, no further explanation needed.

Good Lord and little fishes. 

Aunt _________ died?

  ::shiver::