Nice Narcissist?

[pfuetze]

My mother fits all the characteristics of a narcissist except fo the fact that she truly cares about her family.  She supports us physically, if not emotionally, and I don't think she has a mean bone in her body.  Having said that,  she truly did a lot of damage to me as a kid - she had real boundary issues, as if I were born to be her plaything and something to projects herself onto.  Psychologists have told me that I have symptoms of post-abuse and post-traumatic stress disorder.  They say she made me voiceless - the word that works for me is "obliterated", emotionally.  She does nice stuff for me that she wishes she'd had herself, then she shames me for not sharing it with her (i.e. having boundaries)  and shows off my successes in these areas.  I always owe.  But I am having trouble putting her into the nasty narcissist mode.  Anyone recognize this situation?

[Anonymous]

There are plenty of subtle narcissists. Also N mothers who are very "caring" but it's mixed with destructive elements. My mom isn't a classical sadistic N, but she is extremely destructive anyway. I see her as having some good sides to her. Unfortunately she also did a lot of damage. Thank goodness for therapists and meds.

bunny

[write]

sounds a lot like my father, and he's borderline pd. rather than n.

Narcissists don't do intimacy, borderlines do then exploit it.

[Anonymous]

Your description reminds me of my mother -- she isn't classically nasty, especially now that her children are all grown and aren't making demands on her. She expresses love for us (wants to kiss and hug everyone) and tries to do thoughtful things. But she still tries to invade my boundaries and projects feelings onto me. I'm also very familiar with getting gifts she really wants herself, and being shown off to other people so she can take credit for my successes.

In some cases I think a person who is overtly and publicly "nice" but in fact narcissistic can be even more damaging to their children (especially when the children are young) because it's so hard to identify their behavior as wrong. They can look like the perfect parent, which makes it very hard for the child to grasp that they're being mistreated.

I don't think she has a mean bone in her body.

Having said that, she truly did a lot of damage to me as a kid - she had real boundary issues, as if I were born to be her plaything and something to projects herself onto.

She does nice stuff for me that she wishes she'd had herself, then she shames me for not sharing it with her (i.e. having boundaries) and shows off my successes in these areas. I always owe.

It sounds as though you're saying she isn't mean, but she did/does mean things. It's true that she may not be consciously trying to be mean, but at some level you are what you do (especially when you're dealing with children). If you do destructive things, I'm not sure how much difference it makes that you don't understand you're being destructive.

Morgan

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry but I can't relate to the idea of a nice narcissist; my N mother is so mean and at times sadistic I have to classify her behavior as evil at times.  A nice narcisistic Mom would seem lke a breath of fresh air but as these reponses indicate, they are damaging as well.

[Float]

My father was the same way. Raised us all well and provided for us with all the material items to make sure society knew that he a "class" family. However, as we got older and developed into our own, he never made single effort to get to know us. Growing up he would start in on how we "owed" him and what did we do for him? BTW: I was eight when this started.

[mighty mouse]

Hi All.

My Mom can be very nice and sometimes I have a great time with her. But she almost always says something a bit off every time I see her. She is very covert about it. It's the covert ones that really make you crazy. You wonder what is wrong with you.

But all the pieces are falling into place as my awareness increases. I can remember defining moments in my life when I just "knew" something was off. This N thing is sometimes hard to get a handle on. But this board just validates my impressions so much!!!!!!!

It is very difficult growing up never being validated. I was always the peacemaker in my family and tried like hades to get approval but it was always a moving target. I realize my parents had their hands full with 8 kids, but I think they kept having kids because getting older in this type of Nfamily is not good. We were valued when we were young, but at a certain age we seemed to be pretty disposible. Even to this day about the only person my Mom can talk about is her young grand daughter (5 years old). But she has no time for any of the other grand kids (11 others who are too old for her now). I wonder what she'll do when this last one gets older?

Everyone in our family knows my Mom is really not so benign. But gosh she is a clever, covert son of a gun. And she knows exactly right where to hurt you. And then she'll feign niceness and ignorance. I used to do her bidding but got so tired of playing this little game with her that it's now been about a year since I actually talked with her. She knows she doesn't "have" me anymore as N suppy and it's amazing how quick she cut me loose....but then she has my 7 other siblings to manipulate, so I'm not a big loss. I wasn't that great of a supply anyway since I live far away from her (whew that's good for me) and  couldn't do enough for her.

Thanks for letting me vent, folks.

I see a lot of clarity, caring, acceptance, et.al going on here and it makes me know I have found a valuable resource.

Mighty Mouse

[Michelle]

Hi pfuetze -

Welcome!  I read your post yesterday but have pondered on it for a little while.  

My mother fits all the characteristics of a narcissist except for the fact that she truly cares about her family.

She supports us physically, if not emotionally
she truly did a lot of damage to me as a kid - she had real boundary issues, as if I were born to be her plaything and something to projects herself ontoShe does nice stuff for me that she wishes she'd had herself, then she shames me for not sharing it with her (i.e. having boundaries) and shows off my successes in these areas. I always owe.

I understand why you may say that your mother is more of a "caring" person than the average narcissist.  She may be more caring than some of our parents on here.  However, the things that you said above contradict what "niceness" means to me.  Emotionally unsupportive, Disrespectful of your boundaries, Projecting herself onto you, Making you feel ashamed, being manipulative and purposeful (by making you feel you always "owe" her)...............those are not descriptions of a "caring" mother.  

I ask this because I am just seeing my own hardships in this same area.....could you possibly have made yourself believe that she is caring when in reality she is not?  I totally understand that mentality, as it has been my "survival thinking" for many many years.  I am just coming to terms with the facts that my mother is as bad as I have always feared.

We are here for you and hope that you will take care of yourself where your mother is concerned.  You have found a great resource!

Michelle

PS - Welcome mighty mouse.  I can totally relate to your story.  I too was the peacemaker in my family.  It is a hard and damaging role to hold.  

She knows she doesn't "have" me anymore as N suppy and it's amazing how quick she cut me loose....but then she has my 7 other siblings to manipulate, so I'm not a big loss

I would disagree with the statement in bold.  I do think you would be a huge loss.  Just because she thinks that is HER loss.  She may never realize what a loss you are....how sad for her.  Just make sure you fill your life up with people that love, cherish and appreciate you for who you are.  Your mother seems like she will never really know that wonderful person.
Michelle

[mighty mouse]

Michelle,

Thank you for the kind words.

That peacemaker role is a hard one. I couldn't stand my parents fighting constantly and then projecting their frustrations on us kids. I was lucky to live near the woods....beleive me, I was taking some looong walks to get away from those two!

Mighty Mouse

[Anonymous]

Hi P, and all,

On the subject of nice narcissism.  I think narcissism has many "personalities."

My husband and my Mom both have N tendancies.  They are both nice quite a bit of the time (though not all the time).  They both believe their intentions to be very good.  They believe they are harmless, they just want me to be happy, they are doing what is "best" for me.  They both have plenty of hugs and kisses.  

However, behind their very good intentions, are more intentions which are self-motivated.  Consciously they understand their words and actions as caring, motivated in the spirit of fun, and love.  But unconsciously there are selfish motivations.  They have a strong need to control, to project, to have power over. This makes their harmful behavior very subtle.  
This has been very confusing for me.  I know they both mean well!  How could they be abusive with such genuinely good intentions???  

They have not allowed me to validate my own experience which is a feeling of suffociation.  I don't get to be myself when they are trying to live through me, control me, etc.  I don't get to have my own voice, make my own decisions.  It is more of a paternalistic relationship than a relationship of equals.  They may often act benevolantly, and if they do I am lucky to be the recipiant. It feeds their need to perceive themesles as a good mom or a good husband.  I don't get a voice.

If I call them on disrespect I get guilt tripped.  Oh, I just wanted to do something nice for you... Oh, I was just making a joke... I think you'll be glad I...
Then, I think... Yes, that's right, I shouldn't feel invaded, hurt, disrespected, because they didn't mean any harm.
The result is:  I can never trust my own experience.  Do I feel hurt?  I probably shouldn't.  I am probably over reacting.  Am I anxious or depressed?  Why?  I had the best parents and the most loving husband in the world!  Something is really wrong with me, right?
It's a damaging cycle, even with the "nicest" N tendancies.

Thanks for letting me write, and process!  I hope someone can relate and feel less alone!
Peace, sjkravill

[Anonymous]

Sjkravill, this is a really good description of the crazy-making experience of relating to a "nice," "well-intentioned" N. I saw a lot of myself in it. Thanks.

Morgan

[write]

it's our reception of what people deal out....

Those of us who were raised by mentally ill/ addicts/ personality-disordered see abuse long after others who would not tolerate such behaviour.

Narcissists TAKE from others. Physically, emotionally, spiritually....Inevitably. Destructably. Without remorse or understanding.

Nice narcissists? Probably not, except as an image we want to believe in.

[Anonymous]

Nice narcissists? Probably not, except as an image we want to believe in.

I believe there are nice narcissists. Some Ns are far less destructive than others. Many Ns can be quite generous, helpful, sweet, etc., when they are in a benevolent mood. However, it helps to be honest with ourselves about the N. If they're sweet sometimes, it doesn't erase the other stuff.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi everybody,

Great thread!  Maybe a better definition of covert N is the well-behaved N.  My Ndad can be very nice and generous--on his terms.  You cannot ask for anything or you are "spoiled" or "selfish".  So you get what you get and you better be damned grateful and thankful.  He'll spend some time with you...doing what he wants to do.  He really lacks the ability to enter someone else's world on their terms.  Cannot lend a helping hand that really helps.

Pfuetze: your mom probably treated you like a doll without feelings.  My NSIL was pretty obvious in the way she would show off her kids like teddy bears or dolls to friends and then put them back on a shelf when she was done and no outsiders were watching.  It was like the Twilight Zone to watch her do it.  One site that might help you get a handle on "nice" controllers is controllingparents.com.  

I sometimes see myself in smothery parent.  Ew.

[Nada]

Hi All,

Just wanted to pop in and say GREAT POST.  It says many of the things I cannot voice atm, but validates what I am continually trying to deny lately.  Also wanted to thank you all for the board, it helps knowing I am not alone in this world as I thought I was....  

Nada