Author Topic: article on Nism and other terms  (Read 1967 times)

Hopalong

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article on Nism and other terms
« on: September 22, 2010, 05:23:44 PM »
http://www.slate.com/id/2267991/pagenum/all/#p2

Fairly overwhelming article on narcissism that my brain doesn't have the energy to refute, or agree with.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

sKePTiKal

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Re: article on Nism and other terms
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2010, 06:22:56 AM »
LOL! I can understand your dilemma, Hops. This is the kind of circular logic that was the basis of so many passionate art school discussions. Thanks - I enjoyed this article. As it happens, I also read the Financial Times article referred to; Dr G posted a link awhile back. And it makes some good points... and some we could also refute, too. It's in the bits and pieces that I'm finding things to agree/disagree with - not the article itself, which sort of self-reflexively criticizes and exemplifies what's being criticized, making it funny to me.

Anytime someone starts talking about "two kinds of people" my radar goes up. There are lots more kinds of people than two - always. But, as a construct for the sake of making the author's point... I can go along with it for a bit. In this case, it rather clearly (and humorously) expresses a question that I've had for years now - where is the line between Healthy N (self-esteem) and the dreaded NPD? When am I simply being selfish - at other people's expense - and when am I "allowed" to be selfish and take care of my self first?

I noticed that the author never mentions empathy and the capacity for it. Huge hole and oversight in his/her argument, I think. And a very important one - because I believe that it's the lack of a capacity for empathy that is probably the big difference and the element that shifts the state of a person from healthy N to NPD. This is less of a personal problem for the N, than it is for those of us who grew up with weak boundaries... I've believed for some time, that N's couldn't wreak as much havoc... if only "we" didn't encourage, enable, and play into their games unwittingly. That's not to say that I'm blaming the "victims"... far from it. We were never taught that boundaries were OK to have and/or never allowed to create and develop them... for the whole variety of reasons that are talked about here.

The other thing, that I sort of agree with... is that the mainstreaming of a term (which is labelled psychobabble) like N... means that it's so overused that the real meaning gets lost... and it becomes an easy way to shift self-responsibility (for those boundaries) and change the gear to "blame"... because "X is an N". I noticed that I've started to do this - and I don't think it's really justified or even accurate - so I'm trying to use different words that specify individual character traits, instead of invoking the NPD "monster". Words like Arrogance... hard-hearted... selfish... closed minded...abusive apply way more often to some of the people I've had contact and difficulty with and the shoe fits better than just lumping them all into the N-category.

There are degrees - different levels and different kinds of N, I think. From the classic "I'm prettier than anyone else and need to be treated like a princess" to the "Screw everyone else; it's dog eat dog and I'm getting mine - by whatever method I need to use" (Bernie Madoff and murderers come to mind in this extreme). What about people who believe their religion is the only "true" religion? Isn't that just a tad N? Or politicians who don't spare an empathetic thought for the unintended consequences of legislation or regulation - who insist that "they know the only solution" and then demonize anyone who disagrees with them or has another point of view?????

If not N - it must be something else - but what?
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Guest

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Re: article on Nism and other terms
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2010, 04:56:29 PM »
Wow that's a long article Hops. I skip-read it for a few minutes and thought: what's the problem here?? What's the author's problem, that is. And then: do I care enough to read it 'properly'? No way. So the FT article was a bit 'off' (yes, it was) but hey, I'd never seen a picture of young Sam before and that was worth seeing. He's a fine and dandy one :roll: (yes, that's a serious comment from me and yes, I'm rolling my eyes at myself). *sigh*

Empathy, PR of course, or lack of it. Sure. Who was it said that every psychopath is an N, but not necessarily vice-versa? Are those on the same scale somewhere? I guess.

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What about people who believe their religion is the only "true" religion? Isn't that just a tad N?

Could be simple indoctrination, plus fear.

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Or politicians who don't spare an empathetic thought for the unintended consequences of legislation or regulation - who insist that "they know the only solution" and then demonize anyone who disagrees with them or has another point of view?????
That's Tony Blair who called his aides a "Godless lot" too.
Maybe it's something to do with the level of fear that the person feels. I guess a 100% psychopath (define?) has zero fear. Maybe Tony Blair has 30% fear etc etc. I don't know what I'm talking about.

Dr. Richard Grossman

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Re: article on Nism and other terms
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2010, 07:09:02 PM »
Thanks, Hops, for the article.

I read it, and while I enjoyed many of his “arguments”, I ultimately disagree on at least one major point (and some minor points as well).  There are people with NPD, and while we may not yet have a “scientific” way of diagnosing them, they are far enough away from the norm of “self-love/healthy narcissism” that the disorder is obvious.  Simply put, you know it when you see it (which is not to say there are many people who border the disorder, but perhaps don’t qualify for a diagnosis).  Some day the diagnosis will be validated by brain studies and perhaps genetics, but until that time, we should not ignore the "unscientific" observations we (mental health professionals) use now.  And yes, living with someone with NPD is a miserable experience.

Richard


mudpuppy

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Re: article on Nism and other terms
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2010, 07:40:36 PM »
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There are people with NPD, and while we may not yet have a “scientific” way of diagnosing them, they are far enough away from the norm of “self-love/healthy narcissism” that the disorder is obvious.


The only person who could disagree with that statement has never had to live with one of the SOBs.

mud

seastorm

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Re: article on Nism and other terms
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 01:18:37 PM »
Although articulate and full of name dropping quotes from famous people, this article goes around in circles and sounds to me like intellectual babble. The guy did not fully understand narcissism and the impact of narcissism and his ironic, arrogant and sarcastic tone sure did not endear him to me.


Sea storm

river

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Re: article on Nism and other terms
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2010, 05:27:18 PM »
http://www.slate.com/id/2267991/pagenum/all/#p2

Fairly overwhelming article on narcissism that my brain doesn't have the energy to refute, or agree with.

Hops

there this saying:  "Any fool can stand back and criticise, and most fools do".   He seems to be criticising the criticisers, rather than contributing something constructive.  (And, look what I just did! )

Guest

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Re: article on Nism and other terms
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2010, 07:29:07 PM »
That must have been constructive River....I laughed 8)