He continues to be sweet, clearly open to happiness, high energy and delightful. I'm still trying to get my head around how much life change could be ahead if this continues.
I notice I'm retreating to the womb (bed, pooch, escapism) again but not panicking about it. So I overall am okay though T is wanting to dig into the things that may be contributing to my paralysis behavior. I need to be willing to do that.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes. Henry David Thoreau
Tupp, now I have this image of Hops having crazy dueling piano dinner parties; )
Lighter
So do YOUUUUUUUU, Tupp, so do you.
When you're down please remember:
1) How truly amazing and smart and wonderful and deep and VALUABLE you are, and
2) If ole Hops can receive a random act of kindness from the universe at nearly 69, it can happen to you too.
I don't think there's any magic potion except that I really did work on accepting whatever is while ALSO insisting that I find some way of being that kept space open for the possibility of good things happening. I'm no "Secret" believer, but I do know thinking that way made life better. Even if M had never responded to my profile, I was still feeling more open. Just...open. Not expecting.
Meanwhile, for you to be moved for me moves me. Thanks, dear. I really mean this gratitude.
(Of course, should M and I unexpectedly hit the dust or I discover some awful deal breaker, where else would I recover? Right HERE, thanks to you and everyone.)
Love,
Hops
My tendency to see it negatively,
Thank you, Tupp. I hear your warning and it matches some alarm chimes I've heard clearly. I won't diminish or overlook what's been happening.
My T today understood the concern but was very positive that he made an appointment for therapy (plus he wrote me he is going to pursue whatever best track is advised for him). She also said she's seen people learn this kind of thing about themselves and make enormous progress.
She said it's not guaranteed but it is possible that he may achieve major insights in a relatively rapid time. He really is driven and may attack self-knowledge the same way he's attacked scholarly knowledge. She believes he has insecure attachment, which his behavior has vastly demonstrated lately. At the same time, I've been very clear with him that I cannot manage his anxieties for him and I will continue to be clear. We did have a mature exchange today, when I think he heard me and responded in a calm adult way. I offered sympathy and compassion and said, "I love you and I needed time alone. I always will."
She gave me a great framing, something I will say to him. I can say, there is a gift I want from you...that is, if or when I indicate (clearly) that I need a day or two days alone, the gift you could give me is, "I'll miss you. But have a great two days and we'll talk then." And then leave me alone to do what I need to do for myself. If he can do that, having had it explained, then we're in much better shape. If instead he still shows the addict behaviors, of wanting/needing me like a "fix", or making little jabs or accusations about me, then I may have to back waaaaaaaaaay off. It'd be very sad but I'd survive.
I'm cautious but not breaking it off. I am committed to speaking up for myself, saying what I want and don't want, and sitting with the possibility of it not working out. That's asking for what I want, and releasing the outcome. I get to choose.
I'm not abandoning ship quite yet. But this has been a sobering period of revelation. A lot of compassion and love have happened too. But I'm not looking to mother or therapize or nurse him. And will find out if he can let go of that urge.
Thanks so much for caring and listening so well.
love
Hops
Well, dang.
All is well but I spent the night in the hospital incapable of coherent speech, feeling very strange, plus puking. Ugh. It was scary, but I had friends plus M. rally -- come here to feed and walk pooch, sit with me in the ER, etc. And M blew me away, and a lot of my resistance melted. He simply stubbornly stayed with me and wouldn't budge, half the night and half the next day (when he wasn't sorting out Pooch).
I slipped deeper in love again because he was so genuine. A close girlfriend said later, "I know he can be a knowitall but boy, what a heart." And she never says stuff like that about people.
It was most likely a TIA (transient ischemic attack) and I have a little white dot in my brain and new meds to take. But I wound up with one of the best neurologists in the country and he said, "Yes, go to Paris anyway."
So we are--tomorrow! I feel okay and am very happy about the trip. The silver lining was the revelation of what it felt like to have someone so at my back when I was scared, speaking garbledly, and vomiting. Didn't deter him one bit, and all of his behavior was just that I'm that important to him.
Hmmm. Maybe I'm going to be able to stop looking a gift horse in the mouth. He will still drive me crazy with personality stuff sometimes, but I just got a good luck at the character beneath all that.
I'll have a tablet with me so hope to keep up with you all this week. I know if you'd been here there would've been even more Amazons at the hospital!
love you guys,
Hops
Thanks, Tupp. It really was frightening. It was a mini-stroke (TIA), they believe, so I got sent home with meds and dire warnings. I can drink wine in Paris, but not daily, and only a glass. Very sobering, pun intended. I just need to be grateful and take care of life business, because with something like a stroke (my mother had one and spent her last year half paralysed) you never know when it could hit. So I feel newly vulnerable. Still, though 69 is young for this, recurrence should be preventable in most cases. General statistics are sobering because many TIAs lead to a real stroke within a year.
I honestly think I'll need to tell M that some of the struggles we've been through I've responded to with huge internal stress...a la, the kind of frustration and angst that drives up blood pressure. His incessant talking plus pressure really does affect me. Particularly when he's repeating stuff over and over. But I'll try to be kind about it and empathic and see if he's capable of modifying that a bit. I hope so.
Lighter, it was wonderful to have him at my back. At first it wasn't. I didn't want him in the ER because as I suspected he'd try to take over. I told my girlfriend that and he insisted anyway and basically shoved his way in even though she'd told him my preference was he wait in the waiting room. She likes him a ton and he charmed her (and part of her felt okay about him taking over) -- but still, it was over my objections. (I was comfortable with her there while I was gabbling but wasn't ready to be that vulnerable with him. As it turned out, I had no choice.) I didn't want him insisting doctors talk to him not me...and with his dominant personality they all kept turning to him. I finally started being blunt: M, please stop interjecting and let me talk to my doctors. It took more than once, but he did respect my wishes in the end. The effort of keeping him at bay was extra stress. So I hope we go forward with just...a calmer relationship that isn't just defined by him.
And all in all though I am still very glad and grateful and touched at his character beneath the exhaustingness. After the crisis it was a big comfort to have him in my room, and I felt really loved. When he got home he did a lot of reading up on TIA.
Hugs
Hops
Thanks, hon!
I'm better, though heartily sick of the chest monitor, which itches like fury and means I can only walk back and forth in the pool (just beneath-boob high). Maddening. And the heat's getting to me.
But...all is well with M. He seems to have calmed down a lot, I think maybe because he's feeling more secure with me. We're having dinner tonight.
The heat has been a brutal reminder of humans not governing themselves and I'm pretty depressed about politics.
Other than well, doing fine.
Went to visit my dying friend yesterday in a nearby city. M drove me and went to the museum while she and I had our visit. Sad and poignant but I'm glad I got to see her. On our own, M and I had fun...lunching at a great Greek place, walking in our favorite district, buying flowers for her from a lovely young man.
Will report more later...and check in about B. on your farm life thread.
Hugs
Hops
Thanks, Lighter.
I'm feeling okay, though less energetic than I'd like.
It hit me this evening that I'm on a big dose of statins after several years off the very low dose I used to take. And that depletes Co Q-10, which I'd forgotten about. I will get back on that tomorrow and stay with it, should help I hope.
Only other issue is the damn itching...eventually the adhesive gets through even the SkinCote, which is essentially liquid vinyl. Ick. I have to swab on two layers of the stuff to tolerate the monitor patch for a day or two, and my skin is miserable beneath it. Welts, and one spot nearly raw. But there's no choice.
Last day to wear it is the 11th...then I mail it all in. No idea how long it takes for the analysis to come in.
I do feel a bit worried about the result. I'm just praying I don't have afib, which would require strong blood thinners for life. Would really like to avoid that, but I'll deal.
Thanks for checking!
Hugs
Hops
Turns out, the secret was
BUBBLE
BATH.
:)
A happy
Hops
Fortunately, there are plenty of quiet leafy neighborhoods right in the city where you can enjoy your pet deer (or chickens!) and have lots of nature. It's a town with nature embedded in it.
I've lived in the mountains and in several remote areas (the most: Appalachian Kentucky, where without 4WD you literally couldn't leave the holler in winter) but have no craving for that any more. Part of it's aging, part of it's cowardice (nice to be near a hospital if stroke ever revisits, every minute counts to limit damage). And...I discovered after years on mountainsides or eastern shores that I really do need to perceive my neighbors' nearness. It's comforting to me. I don't want racket, of course, but I don't crave isolation or massive privacy. Indoors, sure. But not when I'm walking; I crave the human landscape as much as the other...and it's a 20 minute drive to the most beautiful mountains I've ever known.
IN town, definitely. And fortunately, M. feels the same way. There's a river right through the city anyone can access from various paths, but living ON water is unlikely. We're not going to spend THAT much! (Though I did point out to him at one house today where he could put in a pool...). His own glimpse of lake is through a very overgrown woods that is currently smothering his house, so not very soothing.
Hugs
Hops
Thanks, ((((Tupp))))!
He's on board with finding our own place near downtown, so I'm very grateful for that. I may be heist on me own petard, though, because we've blundered into a barely-advertised one with few details but we've seen it (outside), walked around it, and both just went whomp, in love.
Upsides: 1901 absolutely adorable, not a Mcmansion, literally just blocks from the Mall (restaurants, kulchah, library, concerts, parks, civic life). Historic --M is doing mental cartwheels over that and its original state (which he'd love to renovate) and we both are nuts about a brick stable behind it on the alley, which could become guest/studio/study/all three (it's large) space. Corner lot, endless potential space wise.
Downsides: Biggest one which is BIG, and it tells you something about the charm of the place that we're still so into it. It's on a VERY busy street. Actually the same one I live at the peaceful, quiet, no-traffic end of. But...up the road it's a direct artery out of downtown, a major street from there to the highway (I'm waaaaay past the highway with no through traffic, river below, etc). And the traffic there is relentless, and thus...noisy. Early morning and evenings won't be bad, but most of the day, with bedlam at rush hour, it's real. Daunting. Yet, and yet....
Other one is just that we've left messages for the anonymous owner with no response. It's not being marketed on regular listings and we're heading for the courthouse next week to try to find out the name and some way to write them a letter. So it's an iffy kinda thing. We may talk ourselves out of it (traffic) but the fantasizing has been fun.
The noise thing, we've talked about. I would plant a double row of thick hedge and do triple-glazed front and side windows. Beyond that, the truth is I don't spend a lot of time outdoors unless I'm taking a walk, so with sound insulation I'd be fine.
The yard can be made very pretty and we'd get help for that. I've faced that I'm a lazy, unmotivated gardener at this point, but M can afford the help and I'd love being "supervisor" for that.
Long story shorter, I think it's unlikely but we are enjoying looking together, and there's no urgency.
Other stuff that's happening is that we've stepped forward and have a mutual assumption about marriage and he does keep proposing. I will say Yes, but there are things I'd need resolved before taking the leap:
--we have bought a house
--we have agreed on downsizing process
That's pretty much it. I do dread leaving here but dread life alone forever more, so I've made my decision. M has been SO happy lately since we got intimacy underway (in our geezer fashion) that there's just no more hesitation.
More later...neighbor coming.
xxxxoooo
Hops
Thanks, Lighter. I really appreciate that.
I think what happens when we have a disagreement or "off" phase is that M becomes overwhelmed with anxiety. And then, he begins bits of what seem to me like passive-aggression. I don't want to overreact, because 90% of the time he's not that way at all.
Example: If we've had a misunderstanding or difficult moment to work through, and I've retreated for a bit, he will absolutely flood me with messages about his overwhelming love for me, repeating and repeating and repeating and repeating it....until it doesn't feel like being loved so much as badgered.
I mean, when someone says "I love you" and your honest response in that moment is, "You've told me that..." something is amiss.
I've tried to explain it. Yesterday that came up (the frantic repetitions). I explained to him that sometimes hearing it too often wasn't helping. So as he began to email me early this morning, he began including at the end of his message: "Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo...." It had that whiff of something I don't like reading in an email.
So I just wrote: What is Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo?
He said, it's what I want to say but am not allowed to say so I find another way to say it.
I wrote back that to me, it seemed as though if someone says they're feeling uncomfortable and you invent a code that just lets you do what you want anyway, that's not progress. Something like that.
I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill but I have pretty sensitive radar for when email is going toxic. I tried to explain it, then just asked that we talk later today and stop email for now. I hope he'll be able to understand.
(I got into horrible spaces in an email relationship years ago that made me forever cautious about relying on it for actual connection. I told him that we're okay, but since our connection had been tested recently, I think it's important to be clear and careful when we write each other.)
????? Does that make sense?
Hops
Do you think he doesn't hear what you're saying (and by that I mean, does he miss the meaning of 'I need some time to myself' and not take it to mean you mean complete radio silence)Thanks, Tupp. As ever, you have zoomed right into the actuality of it.
This is possible
or does he know what you mean but just chooses to ignore it?
This is what I fear
I'm just wondering if being very direct with him might help ("I need some time on my own. I'm staying home till Wednesday, please don't contact me before then")
This is exactly what I need to do next time
Some people genuinely can't understand why saying "I love you" could be annoying) and need a much more clear, direct instruction.
I remember thinking, I'm just going to relax and be myself this evening, and I did enjoy it. He was calmer too. And served me another awesome meal, and we drank wine on the deck at sunset. He'd had a tough week at the U. and it was nice to chill out together.I'm so glad to read that, Hops: )
Lighter, your scathing but truthful depiction of his infantile side really sobered me. I'[m working on finding a balance with my tone, and words. I was never listened to, in my family, so things sometimes come out with more "truth" than absolutely necessary. It was reality and a kind of stem-level depiction of dependency. I honestly feel that everyone has some stem-level behaviors.... shadow side....when our brains switch into survival mode.... it's a very helpless place to be, IME. Not my favorite moments with him but I'm still drawing those boundaries. You have to do it to stay level, Hops. You staying level is the first step to his finding his way, and learning how to get control of his emotions.... I think. Pretty comfortably. I enjoyed a friend's company downtown this evening, and then my own later, just watching the golden light and happy people enjoying the amazing weather, and pooch. I sat over my dinner at a favorite cafe and just savored it all. I had a lovely day downtown with youngest dd yesterday afternoon... a lot like that. I smiled, and felt really really happy... and noticed it! I'm glad you did too: )M had mentioned what he was having for dinner and I'd had no expectation of us being together tonight, and later he still had a way of upping the ante, conveying anxiety--a later call to double check about the next two evenings, etc etc. The man does CLUTCH. Somehow he's going to have to notice what he's doing, then learn to apply some countermeasures to calm himself. You can't do it for him. He constantly makes the next plan and the next plan and the next, and I react by refusing to firm up all the details for casual get-togethers until the day of, because I feel hemmed in by having absolutely encounter on the calendar. My mom was that way, not to that level, but it clashed with my desire to have some flexibility with my schedule months down the road, so I know what you mean. I'm noticing my desire to advocate on his behalf... not sure what that's about, but I don't think giving in to his neediness is how to calm him down. I think that would lead to escalating behaviors, truthfully. Formal things or things that include others, sure, we can book those. But on a day to day basis I want the freedom to retreat and he'll have to get used to it. I'm trying to work on just maintaining my own security/maturity and will find out over time if his improves. I liked what you said about spinning. Good term for it. It makes my heart sad for M, bc he's suffering in those times, IMO. And it's destructive in the relationship. You might have to figure out how to live with it, or continue pressing him to look at it with a good T, IMO. It's a lifelong learners club, unfortunately. He's open to learning, or he's not is how I see it... at this moment anyway. Sounds like you have more space around your discomfort with this side of him. That certainly bodes well for the relationship: )
I do echo your caution over marrying him, without SEEING a definitive path to true change, then ending up the wifey with him dropping the T, and settling right back into old patterns with zero motivation to change. You have to gently guide him on that journey, NOW, IMO. He certainly seems motivated to please you. I just hope he doesn't end up resenting you for it down the road.
That's one reason I want the T to take the lead, and say the harder things so you don't have to.
You shouldn't have to, Hops.
hugs and thanks again,
Hops
Hops,
The red flag I see as you think out loud, is that you will have to "come up with a reason" for why you are wanting to go back to work and that you are concerned that it will alienate him if you do. Whether that would happen or not, there is something in your relationship with him that makes you think its likely, and your self-preservation is already trying to figure out how to protect yourself by making up an acceptable story about your thinking. The reason that worrieHops, CB
I hear just a few worrisome things that mean the substance - M not liking or respecting your boundary and taking it the wrong way - could be a recurring situation.It's both ironic and a relief that he's seeing his T today and I'm seeing mine, too.
The freedom to work as you wish, to come and go as you wish, to make plans sans M, as you wish?I really haven't. And I won't/can't, etc.
He still doesn't get the difference between an I-message and a You-message (I know, Amber, this is probably seeing things through the psychobabble filter). He likes to say: I feel that YOU... and merrily goes about analysing me, and never analyses himself.
Thank you, ((((Tupp)))). Your take on how I feel is comforting and validating. Professors can be VERY persuasive, until they encounter the Stubborn Student! You're right, my concerns are legitimate. But so are his. I'm very hopeful the couple-counseling will help. He is motivated to the moon not to lose me, and I'm not far behind him. So given that he's brilliant and motivated, maybe it'll be a remarkable learning curve. My smarts are different but my love for him is real (plus that sketchy other motivation you are so forgiving about). I dunno the outcome, but I'll ask the universe for what I'd like, and give it my all.
I also agree with you that there'd be no point in bailing right now, just because it's getting hard. Relationships take Work. And either way--either for the reward of having worked so hard to create a happy future marriage that it's even more satisfying, or of having worked so hard that even in grieving an ended relationship, we have the knowledge that we both tried our very best. Until I can say that authentically, having also confronted my own dysfunctions, I am not ready to pull the plug.
Like you, I don't know what I would have done without this forum. And I have learned more than I can express from every voice hear.
I am sooooo grateful for the support.
love
Hops
(((((((Amber)))) Responded about Hol over on Farm Life. Meanwhile, I'm grateful you brought up my struggle with M not accepting a NO. (Not before an endless campaign of ignoring it and/or verbally pounding at me over and over about it, until the NO becomes overwhelming.)
I think in many smaller matters I have intentionally turned my No into a Why Not or Yes. Yes, I'd like to please him. He turns almost every effort I make to give to him into his issue of no no no, I am the one who provides, serves, is generous and sacrificial. I had to talk to him about receiving...how if he deflects every gesture I try to make to express love and gratitude to him, that hurt. He worked on it. Doing the surprise birthday dinner for him was a big one. But even there, he turned to me and said, I'd be happy to pay for this...one look and he gave it up, but his compulsion was still there to take away that opportunity from me. HE is the Giver, the Big Person, the Magnanimous Papa figure. It's not all ego, a lot of it is how he was raised.
I know I've posted this before, but Bill and I struggled with being "the giver" in our relationship too. I had to talk myself out of many trees, and make a conscious decision to let Bill have that. I learned to find comfort in receiving, the it became joy.
When he died I felt a profound loss I'd never before known, and come to appreciate.
Recently, I took my biggest No, contemplated loving him and wanting to bring him happiness, and flipped it into a profound Yes. He wound up kind of letting loose of my gift in a way that puzzled me, but it was still a happy thing to do and share.
On the other hand, I think my boundaries are too rigid in some ways. My T has said to me several times that she feels I am not over-reacting to his pressure. But she only hears my narrative, not his.
I identified for M recently that the pattern I worry most about is that although I delight in him as a companion (we are crazily compatible talking, dining, traveling, bantering, exploring, laughing, socializing with others) ... where I have the most trouble is when I believe he is crossing personal boundaries into my personal autonomy. I may be over-threatened by these in others' eyes, but here they are:
--My Family. He trespassed into my relationship with my D by sending her a message behind my back about my feelings, and then by talking about "his plan" to contact and help her, that he would "let me know" when he has decided "what he intends to do." I was in fury until he grasped that he is not to do ANYTHING in her direction unless he explicitly ASKS ME about it first. She is my child, not his. For now, we've dropped that discussion. He was fantasizing a paternal relationship with her, "the daughter I never had" that was both kind and clueless (her purpose in the world is not to make him feel more saintly). He understands nothing at all about her mental illness, my loss and how it feels and kept poking at it, bringing it up over and over and over because it made HIM so sad--and thus making me re-experience an anguishing loss I'd grieved as much as I could without dying. (Repetition, repetition....). I see your point, but also see his side. Yearning to help and connect, and perhaps heal. Since my oldedt18 dd connects so deeply with my brother the idea of M connecting with your dd brings up positive emotions and hope....and then I look through your eyes again, and know your right to have boundaries, and insist M respects them.He FINALLY realized how grave this was for me, and dropped it. Though there've been a few very subtle gestures about her lately. (I think he resents me having drawn such a firm boundary there.)
--My Health. He directly ignored an explicit request my friend conveyed (nicely) for me when I was in the ER, that I did not want him to come back yet into the area where I was being treated. He told my friend, "Oh she's confused. I have to be there, I'll 'take the heat':... ) and persuaded her to let him take over. When I asked later, did she convey my request that you NOT come back? He said yes. I asked, so why did you? He said, "My feelings compelled me to." So the wishes of the stressed and overwhelmed patient, me, were irrelevant because his feelings were strong. It was NOT comforting having him in the cubicle; it added to my stress while I was in the middle of a stroke and focusing on responding to the providers. The next day I was (and remain) so grateful to have him there and very moved by his overall support (though he kept interrupting my conversation with my doctors). But the night before, he did not care about my privacy, my vulnerability, my humiliation (I was having medication not only injected but stuffed up my ass and was NOT ready to share that moment with a boyfriend I hadn't been intimate with) or my CHOICE. He found his choice romantic. I found it disrespectful and, honestly, selfish. (So I hesitate to trust him with health issues. A recent example, his insistent drama about the monitor, magnifying HIS sense of crisis into a routine appointment I was managing calmlly. Another: The other night I shared something about how ADD affects my time management and he responded dismissively, "Oh, I don't think you have ADD. You may have gotten some diagnosis, but I don't perceive it." And "Somebody wanted to put one of my sons on ADD meds!" I don't even take Rx. I was 60 when diagnosed, and immensely relieved by it. But what got to me was his entitlement to dismiss it and attitude of superiority about his knowledge. So that's another health thing I don't feel safe sharing about.)
--My Friendships. I had a tiff with a friend, coincidentally also a professor, and shared it with him because it was sad. It was just a friend story. He said, Oh I'll take care of this because as a professor I can reach out to her with some invitation because we're technically colleagues. I didn't want him to do this. I wasn't looking for him to take over and issue some invitation. I am capable of resolving or making decisions around my personal friendships myself, and didn't need or want his involvement, which would've made the whole delicate dialogue with her much more difficult. (So I regretted confiding in him about something I'd ordinarily love to share with a partner. By the way, she and I are okay again.) After the bday party he made a big deal of writing my friends to thank them for coming (which was very nice, and appropriate) and at the same time declare to them that he was extremely grateful and wanted to thank them for being good friends for me (which struck them as odd). They've been my personal friends for decades, barely know him, and frankly don't need my boyfriend to praise them for caring about me. It's...paternalistic. Well meant, but still.
--My Time. When I periodically need to retreat to recharge (as an "introverted extrovert") he emails, calls, sends intense messages about how he needs to drop off food gifts even after I politely decline ("But it's fresh! You don't even have to answer the door!") etc, etc. It ensures that I keep thinking about him, I'm guessing. I'm probably thinking about him anyway, but don't need my sanctuary time structured around his desperation to not sense the umbilical cord stretch. (So now, thanks to Tupp, I have to spell out--radio silence.)
--My History. I shared with him in France the story of a very painful hurt I'd experienced with my second husband. (Which I'd grieved, recovered from, and basically put away...I rarely think of him.) M brought it up about TEN TIMES since because it made HIM so sad. I finally explained that I appreciated how compassionate he was about that experience, but that it was many many years ago, that I had healed from it and moved on, and that I'd really appreciate it, now that he understood it, if he would not bring it up again. "I promise. I'll never mention it again," says M, as he often does. He brought it up again yesterday. (This is what I mean about repeat, repeat, repeat.) He had a pretext. Doesn't matter. It makes me not trust his "I promise." He is appalled, "You've said you don't TRUST me! My intentions are always pure and good! Because I love you so DEEPLY.") Oy.
--My Body. In the most vulnerable of situations, he persisted in a way of touching that was uncomfortable and distressing to me. I said No over and over and he ignored it. Shhhhh! Shhhhh! I left and burst into tears when I got home. I had and have much compassion for why it's an emergency to him and in some degree, how his own anxiety and goal focus overwhelm him. But despite compassion, I can't abandon my own self, my own body, to his agenda without knowing that if I say Yes, or No, in the moment I will be heard. (Not after he's repeated and repeated whatever he wants....over my objections.) He apologized profusely and sincerely by email, but also came back when I tried to talk about it in person. "I wept too" and more, which pretty much shut me down. The other day I told him I didn't feel heard and that experience was still unresolved for me. He said he wanted to listen and we should take time to sit down and he would. I'm doubtful but hopeful. For me, it's a traumatic memory, if that word isn't too extreme. So all that's on hold and I'm reluctant to re-engage at that level. Not without help.
Looking for some good news? Talking with my T, I asked her to recommend couples counselors to interview. She said it wasn't if we needed it, but when, and it's time, and suggested names. Happily, he's agreed and is also asking his T for suggestions. We'll see one from each list to find one we both like, etc. I had told him recently, when he asked again about marriage (repeat repeat) that I honestly now have doubt I didn't have before. So he's taking it very seriously. That's good. A relief.
It seems like he's willing to try, and is capable of learning. I think digging into the why of his codependence will be super helpful, but super painful too.
If anyone can help him figure this out you can Hopsy. Hopefully a good T will shorten the journey, and be helpful for you both.
He's never wavered about how much he loves me and wants me as his lifetime companion and no one else will do and I'm the love of his life. I believe his feelings are real; it's only some behaviors that get to me. He says if I know his intention is good (I do) that nothing else should matter (I don't agree, and told him even when there is real love, sometimes relationships still don't work.) I'm wavering now, but I do still love him, and I'll be very sad if it doesn't work out. However, I am also clear that my life would continue. It would be a lot harder, and having a stroke I'd be helpless and without a direct advocate (my friends are great but not THAT available), and I won't pretend that security isn't one of my motivations. I'll be 70 this spring. Having him to love and live with and care for going forward I believe would be a happier life for me than continuing alone. Winter is coming, literally and metaphorically. I think your strength and belief in yourself makes you a better partner. I think it gives you more space to work out the things that come between you.
And....for most of the hours we've been together, he's been a delightful companion. I believe we will both do our sincere best in the counseling, and that the hope lies there. Maybe all the baggage two people this age are dragging is just a little complicated. And at heart, he is an ethical person, and has kind intentions. We're also just beginning to take a look at how some things I find smothering are actually cultural differences, as CB referenced...in how he shows love. That's helpful. Dunno if it'll save us but it reduces my worry, to see some of his behavior in a less personal context. Yes....stay curious, Hops.
Meanwhile, we're off to California later next month to "meet the kids" and I'm truly looking forward to it. Have a good time. Lighter
Thanks for listening to all that, all-a y'all.
love
Hops
I saw some disturbing patterns emerging in your recent description. Disturbing for me; if I was in your shoes. I'm not going to go into them because you seem to be trying sort out the "why" or reason behind them yourself
Well, this is a different take, odd but kind of neat.
Remember how I've mentioned that M's restless hands drive me crazy, his fingers always twiddling and jumping so that it's unpleasant for me to hold hands with him?
Just on a hunch I ordered him one of these and loves the thing!
https://www.fidgetland.com
He had it with him at a recent event we went to and kept it busy the whole time and genuinely seems to benefit. He even mentioned to me that he "tries so hard" to remember not to grab my hand and the fiddler has helped. He laughs about it but I was surprised he actually had it on hand. And his little comment made me recognize that he really isn't being purposefully oblivious but actually struggles.
I think maybe he's had the hyperactive kind of ADD his whole life and never been helped at all with it. He also clearly has the hyper-focus part, which helps his career...and maybe some more ADD techniques will ease some of the manic behavior I find so challenging.
He's joked about it a lot but seems ironically delighted I got it for him.
Hops-a-D....D
Thanks, guys. You are so thoughtful and supportive, it blows my mind.
I think I won't explore new kinds of "treatment" or "evaluation" for M at this point, mainly because I've already got the poor man into two kinds of therapy -- his own T, and soon our couples T.
But gradually it might be useful to give him more info on ADHD (not that he couldn't look it up himself...). I generally don't want to direct his personal growth or visualize him as a project, but as long as he is this open and motivated, I can share comments and observations ... and fidget devices! If I mention those things, like sensory processing and ADHD a bit more...maybe he'll bring something up in his own work with his own T.
What's fascinating about M is his actual brilliance, and how that has driven a remarkable career. The couple-T we met on Monday asked him some astute questions, including who was the favorite (ie, "golden") child in your family? M immediately said, I was. And M spoke about the extreme privilege he grew up with.
He was the only one who broke away from the family expectation that he become a bigwig in one of the largest businesses in Central America. He went off to be a scholar and took that all the way to the top. He said his father once told him, You had the courage to do what I never could. And his sister said similar things.
One thing I love is that in both of these exploratory couple-T sessions, I've spoken very openly and descriptively about my observations and reactions to M, and painting his frustrating qualities vividly. And yet there is no blowback whatsoever from M afterward. He seems glad to hear what I actually think, and motivated to understand. He has immense learning capacity and never reacts negatively, even when I describe behaviors I think would be hard to hear about in front of a stranger.
So I'm feeling better about our prospects these days. He's coming over tonight for an indoor picnic and flick.
Hugs
Hops
M does seem genuinely interested in working on the relationship with you (I kind of think an N would be blaming you for the situation and not accepting they might have a part to play? He seems to be willing to accept he might need to change a bit to keep your fire burning :)
Real and imperfect as opposed to pretend and endlessly wonderfulThat's exactly it. When I talked to him about "building the foundation" he was very receptive. I think a lot of tension has evaporated recently because of two things:
I had wedged the following into a reply on Farm Life, then realized it goes here. It's NOT anywhere near as true now -- M's behaving so much more naturally than he was when he was full-tilt compulsively-obey-fearsome-dead-grandmother's-formalities. I'm much more able to relax (less defensive) with some of his gentility reflexes (mostly on display in others' view). But I amused myself with these metaphors so what the heck:
....I trip over "protectiveness" in M's manly-Latin-man persona, just because it irritates me to bits. That's because unless I'm actually hurt or incapable, I don't NEED it, and it's like a reminder (in my case) of his need to display that he's the strong one, and I need "ushering" (errr, herding) to the table in a restaurant, to wait like a sheep beside the mare (err, chair) or gelding (errr, car door) until he scrambles around to grab the bridle (errrr, chair back/door handle), or to have the saddle cinched (errr, chair pulled out/reins taken) in case I was unaware that's how a horse (err, chair/car) actually works, despite my having arrived on my own (errr, feet on sidewalk/own butt in driver's seat) in the first place.
All my emoticons here are busted so visualize multi LOLs....and yes, I KNOW his intentions are pure and good. It's cultural stuff. What's fun is it's becoming more interesting than irritating with time. And he's beginning to notice how unconscious it is, himself. We still do the ballet but he's less often nearly-knocking-me-down in his devotion to every step of All The Rituals. (He's also seeing I do understand his intentions are not malign. Hardly.)
Someone wanting to hear your voice is lovely. Someone contacting you so often that you can't hear your own voice isn't. I do get and understand that completely.
Perhaps he does need a stimulating environment, rather than an isolated one, to keep his brain ticking over on other things?Yes. I think being in Costa Rica triggers all sorts of complicated emotions of loss and feeling rootless and conflict with who he was groomed to be and who he actually became (which took a lot of guts)...and the cost he felt (loss of that idyllic childhood in paradise) as he acquired his freedom. I don't think he's ever made peace with it all, which is part of the reason he travels so much. In transition, he feels most at home. Plus, with constant stimulation. Exciting but exhausting. And even if he was letting off steam, I have to be firm in setting boundaries that make clear he must find other ways to deal with his jangled feelings than acting them out with me. That's on him, it's his work, and I will support but not do it for him. I don't know yet whether he'll dive deep enough in therapy to do that kind of growth. I hope it for him and for both of us.
I think that's very true. Maybe when he's alone with me and his hyperbrain is needing that he drills into me as the handiest topic to examine critically at times. I just can't allow it, so he will have to deal. I thought it was interesting that he expressed some interest in confronting ADHD. It would be wonderful if he learned that though it's wonderful to have a brilliant brain, there are downsides to having a manic one. At least in the wear and tear on personal relationships, or his with me anyway. I do think the T is a safe zone for us and the miracle after this trip is, there's still love there. No guarantees and I will not delude myself. Thank you for seeing THAT part of me. I'm grateful.
Perhaps he could do some of his trips without you as you go forward - absence making the heart fonder and all that.
He'll have no choice, because I'm not going to take unlimited trips with him unless I feel confident I won't be trapped in a grinding bickering session with him again. It goes both ways, I can dish it out too when I'm feeling strong, but it's my model of misery (had that ongoing especially in my first marriage and it ruined it) and I would rather die alone and poor than repeat that for the years before dying. i can't take it. Literally. (Heart.) In fact, the trip he plans for us in April-May to Spain and Portugal was to be a whole lot of driving and he's now realizing that because of my back pain, it may not be wise. I told him I'm not sure I will be up to going and will let him know either way in time to cancel. My back was very painful this time and the drive he said would be three hours turned out to be six, the last two on jolting, rutted jungle roads. Exciting to see but in the shape I'm currently in, way too painful. I plan to get more PT shortly and also begin an exercise class, because I don't have to be in pain always if I get my ass moving again. That's on me. I've let myself go and it'll be hard work to regain fitness but there is no more excuse.
Do you think he feels pressured when with family and was then 'letting off steam' afterwards when things calmed down?
I have the feeling M sensed your reluctance to be smitten and impressed and that reluctance brought out his insistence and overbearing ego/shadow side. I withdraw when I feel that way too and it never makes things better, IME. The person requiring reassurance, attention and admiration tend to get desperate....
I was also concerned about M's expressing bluntly his frustrations and criticisms of you, I presume? Did he make it very personal and if so, did you feel this is how he'll begin treating you more and more often?
"Make me feel good" seems to be the implied message. Or "why are you not impressed with my awesomeness?" and "How dare you have a different perception, opinion or feeling than I do?"
(((((Tupp))))) -- We're on the same page!
One persistent interest of mine for years has been aging issues, including co-housing, shared housing, etc. I know a good deal about it. Unfortunately the only cohousing communities here (there are two) are too expensive for me. This area's very pricey even for that.
When I was still hoping to inherit my mother's big house one of my plans was to get two or three female friend roommates and create our own co-house for old age, pooling resources etc. But that didn't work out because of my brother (and the fact that my friends have their own plans and generally are better off). I checked out the other two as well. Then as I've talked about a lot here, I've helped elderly folks in independent apartments in old-age developments, and learned what they pay each month. Out of my reach.
But. There's a new nonprofit here I've begun to volunteer for that is based on healthy people (mostly in 60s or 70s) doing for free for frail elders exactly the kind of thing I've done for pay. Then, one day, if you need similar help so you can age in your home as long as possible, you can turn to this network for chores, drivers, shopping help etc -- at no charge. It's a brilliant concept that's already underway in some cities and I'm looking forward to working on it here.
That does not resolve anything medical or if you're no longer mobile ... but it's still a good step. And I have an interview for an elderly couple next week so I can start doing some PT elder-help paid work again, which I've taken a break from for many months now, since the old gent died and the two women became too ill for me to help. It'll do me good to work again, independence wise.
Hugs
Hops
That's my instinct, Tupp. And thanks for the hugs.
I think it's premature and with a huge chance prices will drop enormously coming up (virus and economy), it might make more sense to wait.
I still have the same security fears of old age, and moving in and marrying will take care of those. But we might go about our plans in better shape after some more months of counseling together. For now, I'm just going to wait and see what he says.
Didn't sleep all night for all the churning in my head, but on some level, also calmed down a bit.
Hugs
Hops
if after that much time - it's still the very same thing bugging you - it's something that isn't going to change; it'll always be there. Maybe you can learn to love that too... maybe you just can't.
permission to learn to live with his habits, or perhaps expand your horizons... or even do nothing for a little bit... including perhaps, restating your boundaries and standing firm without worrying about HIS feelings in reaction to that.
This is going to be about you, Hops, changing how you view M's behaviors rather than M learning to change all the things pinging off warning bells
I hear you, Lighter:QuoteThis is going to be about you, Hops, changing how you view M's behaviors rather than M learning to change all the things pinging off warning bells
There's a little bit of unreality in that for me, though. It'll take some time and some more months of single-T and joint-T sessions, probably. But what I am asking my wisest inner self (hellloooo! please come back sooooon!) is this: If M's behaviors ARE warning bells of the personality disorder I was raised to be drawn to and most dread, then perhaps I should NOT change how I view his behaviors. I believe that too, Hops. To clarify... I believe you should see what is true and what isn't true about M WITHOUT the old warning bells and red flags of your history pinning your nose to ever pebble and tree so you can't see the forest or field. I want you to see the filed and forest, and not ONLY the pebbles and trees. Does that make sense?
Whatever decisions you make... they should be rooted in the present, not in your history.
If M is your mother, is an N, is toxic.... then that is what he is.
If M is in pain, suffering..... unable to control some of his actions, bc he's human like the rest of us..... if his struggle isn't your mother's struggle, isn't her actions, isn't really THAT.... you should see that clearly. Whatever its... I want you to see the truth, calmly, without judgment..... without past or future or ego involvement.
If I am over-reacting (layering it over Nmother trauma memories as you astutely mention) then you are right. My goal then would be to de-escalate it and remove its "charge." In my own T work and inner work. So I can stay with M. Whether you choose to stay with M or not stay.... taking that charge out of your limbic system is something you're worthy of, and can have for yourself.
It's not about M or seeking out old struggles..... it's about how you SEE, what you see..... CAN you see what's true in your present moment, free of fear and experiences? I know you can do that, but IME it takes some magic wand dust, gaining spaciousness..... coming to our senses....... and looking at everything without judgment. If this IS repeating old struggles, and M IS toxic then that's what is true. If M is a suffering human being, reminding you of your mother bc of experiences, but just a human being pinging off old alarm bells that AREN'T really about him.... then that's the truth. Maybe all the negative emotions that pop up will dissolve and you'll feel patience and relief instead of dread, worry, doubt, and frustration. I have no idea.
What I do know is the work is ours. Learning to SEE with clarity is helpful and good and feels true. The fear, anxiety, and ego involvement stuff feels sketchy and temporary, IME. Living in our limbic system isn't truth or reality and it's OK to just BE there, notice when we're there, come to our sense and come to the real truth. Whatever it is.
I do feel identifying M's behaviors as your "mother's" behaviors, as "N".... is telling a story and it's a big scary story, IMO. What do you see if you identify M as a human being, product of all his experiences, flawed and suffering..... what do you see as truth for him, for you, between you?
It's not really a binary choice. My challenge, I believe, would be to find out how deeply and how much his N-ish (I am VERY confident using that adjective, with the "ish") behavior distresses me because of its emotional impact on me. Are we truly a good fit? I don't know, but I trust you to gain some distance, center yourself in your body and figure that out for yourself.
If it bothers me only a little now and then, and I should look at it with fond benevolence--oh, the little Nboy is acting out, I don't have to react...then the answer's pretty easy. Most of the time I enjoy his company, even though I find him extremely self absorbed. Maidenly, at times. I don't think M is a little boy, but he has his wounded child within that takes him into his limbic system, just like the rest of us. Just like you. Just like me. When M is IN his limbic system he loses his ability to respond to you in the way you've asked. It seems he's honored your boundaries at times, and is committed to honoring them... or am I wrong? Would the couple T say he's trying, committed and working on that for the benefit of the relationship? If M's truly Nish.... I don't think he could do that, but that's MY experience. That's MY stuff and it's not fair to SEE M through that lens or the lens you see your mother through.
I think...
you know I'm just winging it here, right? What I'm writing feels true and solid to me. Whatever outcome... SEEING M clearly, without attaching your mother to him or his actions, seems like it's necessary and helpful, IMO.
I have no dog in this fight, other than wanting you to be OK, safe, and happy.
I don't want you trapped in a toxic relationship with an N who bullies and controls you through an unhealthy imbalance of power, bc of money. I also don't want you to SEE M without clarity, make assumptions or attach old stuff or what if fears TO HIM, bc that's just as bad, IMO, as being trapped... maybe.
If it bothers me so much it shakes me to the core and keeps me awake all night (has quite a few times), maybe I do have to react proactively, in my own self-interest. When I feel strong I can fight for myself. Then there are times I wish I didn't HAVE to be so strong, to be in this relationship. I'd like to feel safe just being however I feel, with him. I know you're strong, Hops. That can be a double edged sword IF we're working hard to maintain a toxic relationship, fooling yourself, working hard to live in denial bc everyone runs out of energy, everyone ends up drained under those circumstances, IME.
BUT... if you're hard work is SEEING what's really there, finding it worthwhile and positive in the whole, then doing what you can, that's within your power to bring about homeostasis in the relationship....
trust
comfort
general wellbeing
fellowship
desire for connection as well as time apart...
IF you can break it into more positive pieces, and extinguish the negative pieces bc they were a reaction.... IF they weren't a response to toxic N behaviors that will get worse and lead to misery for both you and M......
Lots of ifs in there, Hops, but I believe you can discern what's real and true and what's old stuff, fear stuff, reactive stuff, wrong stuff.
My goal isn't so much to be right or in control of everything, as it is to be wise. One friend I've talked about it with sees how much I do NOT want to live on guard, always strategizing my emotional safety, tense about defending boundaries he ignores, and ever-ready to detour around his passive-aggressive stuff during times of tension. There are simply times, particularly as I age, when I would be quite vulnerable to his attitudes and his choices. And I want to be wise around whether M is someone I can trust with my vulnerability long-term. Again, you have choices. Discern what's real and SEE the truth or make assumptions. I think any choice you make will be the right choice.
This COULD be you replaying old struggles with your mother.
This COULD be M chose you to play the role you played with your mother.
THis COULD be you living in your limbic system, particularly bc of new stresses and bc current/ongoing ones with M ping alarm bells that aren't really about the same danger/crisis/red flags.
Maybe M isn't worth the trouble. Maybe he is. I think you're going to find out.
So far, even after a year and a month, I'm not sure. But it ain't over. I am pretty convinced this is not about the pandemic, but sure as hell is converging with that fear too. Multiple scary things converge to make super fears pop up. Watch that video. It helped me calm myself down, as did the T appt, and SEE things without reactivity lately. I'm open to whatever the truth is, but I can't see it if I'm living in my limbic system, which is where I've been for the last 2 days.
Just called him as he'd asked. This usually happens when I place the call. He answers hello? And immediately, instantly, launches into a long monologue of whatever he's stored up. It can go on nonstop for 10-15 minutes. Eventually, he remembers to ask about me. I am not sure how interested he actually is, but he manages that courtesy better than he used to. We all need that person who's our rock. To listen to everything about us, good and bad. To understand and validate us. YOU are M's rock. He's not YOUR rock.
You mention he's getting better at asking about you, which means he's changing, at least a bit. I don't know what that change is made of, or if it's based in something you can find comfort in, Hops.
What I remember, growing up with them-thar fancy telephones...was an etiquette that, when someone calls YOU, you say Hello, and then how are you? Or, what's going on? Or such. IOW, a person calls someone to speak to them. With M, the unwritten rule is, someone calls me so I can speak to THEM, and he instantly launches into it. So he speaks first and most, and I get to tag on my own story sometimes, and shorter. I have to ask myself a question, bc that's a pattern in my life also. DID I train people to behave that way? I can tell you I often find myself just wishing the other person will blather on so I don't have to speak. I also find myself wishing to share and tell my story at times, often without getting the chance. I know I train people to treat me the way I get treated more often than I realize. I'm sorting that out, or trying to now.
On the other hand, there are people I've had in my life who are impossible to have an adult exchange with. I have the feeling you DO have adult exchanges with M, or he wouldn't find you so fascinating, good company. I also have the feeling his need to be heard and tell you things is SUPER HUGE compared to your need, which perhaps has become even smaller bc M doesn't understand exactly what's going on.
He pushes in, you pull back. Your pulling back might be interpreted as something it's not, and I'm babbling at this point about what ifs that need to be sorted into what's true.... what's false.
I don't expect you to do anything but sort out the truth for yourself, Hops and you're more than capable of doing that for yourself.
Oh, so familiar. You're right about that!
Rhetorical question....
if something feels familiar, is it the same?
Could it be something else?
Here's how things went for me recently. IF I can shift into the moment... come back to my senses.... I SEE things from other people's perspectives. Their flaws, fears, what made them what they are and I can have enough compassion to SEE the truth without becoming emotionally triggered in any way.
IF I'm emotionally triggered, in any way, I can't see the other person's POV, or have compassion for them... and that's an indicator for me.
I'm not saying having compassion for M means you stay in any type of romantic relationship. I'm saying that feeling chased and hunted and stressed and pressured and manipulated is typically, for me, an indication I'm living in my limbic system and I can shift into a much better space if I work at it and pay attention. From THAT vantage point I have more clarity, more ability to respond and make choices about what's real and what's ego/past/future what if stuff.
I trust you'll do what you need to do with M. I trust you won't make a BIG mistake and if you do.... you can change your mind, shift directions, do something else, ((Hops)) You aren't trapped, but I have a sense you're feeling trapped.
IF you're seeing things clearly maybe you'll see M is an N, just like your mother, toxic and wrong for you WITHOUT feeling the negative things, bc you've gained emotional distance, access to your entire brain and the ability to see any truth without emotional reactivity. Think of Victor Frankl. M shouldn't be able to invade your serenity IF you're in control of your biology, and living in the moment, nose off the pebble, seeing the entire field. Are you seeing the entire field, Hops? Is your nose on a pebble? Many pebbles?
Does that make sense? Lord, I did blather on, but I broke a glass in the kitchen and have to get on the glass break protocol..... a deep cleaning of all surfaces that is definitely OCD. No doubt about it. Then I'll enjoy feeling I'm back at my Grandparent's farmhouse, in Grandma's ver clean, very tidy kitchen.... sacred space for me.
What do you remember about EMDR. How do you get back in your body? I remember you talking about ways many years ago... on this board. You've been looking at and perhaps practicing this stuff long before I heard of it. I can tell you this.... it didn't make sense to me until I had a T explain aspects to me so everything came together and clicked. I heard about it for years, and just couldn't make it work and it had to be THAT one T, her style, her information delivered in the right way for me to process and apply.
M isn't bad or good. N or saint. He's just a guy who's life experiences have made him what he is. He suffers.... I think that's apparent. The question is.... can he calm himself down and hear you.... be more responsive and less reactive while he's with you?
He can or he can't. If we remove judgment it's easier to see what's real. If our brains are processing normally we aren't limited to black or white options... we have access to creative problem-solving skills and the spaciousness of more choice, less fear... and we know we're going to be OK, no matter what. You've been through tougher things than this. You're so smart and competent. You'll figure it out.
Lighter
Hugs
Hops
I hear you, Lighter:QuoteThis is going to be about you, Hops, changing how you view M's behaviors rather than M learning to change all the things pinging off warning bells
There's a little bit of unreality in that for me, though. It'll take some time and some more months of single-T and joint-T sessions, probably. But what I am asking my wisest inner self (hellloooo! please come back sooooon!) is this: If M's behaviors ARE warning bells of the personality disorder I was raised to be drawn to and most dread, then perhaps I should NOT change how I view his behaviors.
If I am over-reacting (layering it over Nmother trauma memories as you astutely mention) then you are right. My goal then would be to de-escalate it and remove its "charge." In my own T work and inner work. So I can stay with M.
It's not really a binary choice. My challenge, I believe, would be to find out how deeply and how much his N-ish (I am VERY confident using that adjective, with the "ish") behavior distresses me because of its emotional impact on me. Are we truly a good fit?
If it bothers me only a little now and then, and I should look at it with fond benevolence--oh, the little Nboy is acting out, I don't have to react...then the answer's pretty easy. Most of the time I enjoy his company, even though I find him extremely self absorbed. Maidenly [edit: Maddeningly! I HATE AUTOCORRECT! LOL!] , at times.
If it bothers me so much it shakes me to the core and keeps me awake all night (has quite a few times), maybe I do have to react proactively in my own self-interest. When I feel strong I can fight for myself. Then there are times I wish I didn't HAVE to be so strong, to be in this relationship. I'd like to feel safe just being however I feel, with him. I agree with everything you've said, Hops. And you shouldn't have to fight all the time in any relationship, IMO.
SEEING what's true is the goal, I agree.
IF it's just the little N boy acting up, not all the time, and you responding without emotional charge, calmly, not disturbed to the core and up for nights..... that's a truth worth knowing.
IF he's like your mother, and won't change, and actually requires you be upset, bc that's part of his need to feel OK.... that's an important truth, but I don't know it's the truth. He seems not very aware of your reactions...... but you'd know better than me.
I will say this, though you know it already.....
this discomfort you're dealing with is a message... you need to make a move. I don't know what moves will resolve it, and restore serenity. I only know that messages sometimes feel like THE PROBLEM, when they're just discomfort we're meant to deal with and I you're one person focused on figuring that discomfort out and fixing it to the best of your ability, whatever that looks like.
I don't sense fear or confusion. I sense reactivity... we all deal with that.... and I sense your happiness when things click with M.... when you aren't stuggling and working too hard to make it OK.
My goal isn't so much to be right or in control of everything, as it is to be wise. One friend I've talked about it with sees how much I do NOT want to live on guard, always strategizing my emotional safety, tense about defending boundaries he ignores, and ever-ready to detour around his passive-aggressive stuff during times of tension. There are simply times, particularly as I age, when I would be quite vulnerable to his attitudes and his choices. And I want to be wise around whether M is someone I can trust with my vulnerability long-term. There's an answer to that, Hops. It's a solvable puzzle. You'll figure it out, and feel grounded and right about that decision, no doubt.
So far, even after a year and a month, I'm not sure. But it ain't over. I am pretty convinced this is not about the pandemic, but sure as hell is converging with that fear too. It's one more stress on top of other stressors, Hops. Maybe it's what gets you to the answers more quickly with more speed.
Just called him as he'd asked. This usually happens when I place the call. He answers hello? And immediately, instantly, launches into a long monologue of whatever he's stored up. It can go on nonstop for 10-15 minutes. Eventually, he remembers to ask about me. I am not sure how interested he actually is, but he manages that courtesy better than he used to.
Well.... he's improving, for what that's worth. What is it worth? How does it feel? Heavy or light?
About the chattering like a deranged monkey with zero ability to control himself... I have experience with similar monkeys. I had a talk with one of those monkeys lately and we both agreed that monkey just needed to vent, and be heard. I didn't need to answer, give advice, problem solve or take my mind out of my own business while the monkey chattered. Some monkeys need to process verbally and touch base with their rocks. I guess you're one of or THE rock for M.
I'm curious.... what do discussions around this sound like with him, if you'd brought it up? Would be be cool with you just being there, not really investing in the conversation? Just letting him unload so you can both go back to your day feeling OK?
Or would be be upset you aren't participating, giving advice and making him FEEL better by suggesting this and that? I couldn't do that, Hops. Especially if I felt I would be punished for taking care of myself, and not him.
M needs to want you to be OK too. He needs to make that possible, facilitate where he can and not punish you in any way. I really think the true measure of a relationship is in how we respond to not getting what we want. Do we still want happiness and health for our loved one or do we go out of our way to F them up and make them sorry? Is that what M does? In any way?
For me that's a huge red flag. People should still be able to be kind, or at least not lash out when they aren't happy with us all the time. You wouldn't lash out at him or punish him.... you're taking care of yourself. That might feel like punishment to him, but there's a huge difference, IME.
What I remember, growing up with them-thar fancy telephones...was an etiquette that, when someone calls YOU, you say Hello, and then how are you? Or, what's goin on? Or such. IOW, a person calls someone to speak to them. With M, the unwritten rule is, someone calls me so I can speak to THEM, and he instantly launches into it. So he speaks first and most, and I get to tag on my own story sometimes, and shorter. I think waiting for a chance to speak, rather than listening, is a universal problem most people suffer, to a greater or lesser degree, IME.
M has it to a greater degree, always has, it's not personal TO YOU. I have friends who do that. I have friends who sort of do that. I have friends who are sorry when I point it out, but they don't get a whole lot better about it.
I think part of the problem, for me, is I'm an engaged listener who enjoys listening very much.
That steers habits in a certain direction... I train people, I admit it. I'm trying to do a better job, and things seem to be going very well with Mossing L. A back and forth, lots of interest for both of us.
You're going to have to train M to be a better listener, IMO. Set some ground rules about your time to speak and his time to listen. My mother always said men are trainable or not trainable, and she ended up in an amazing partnership with a really nice man, BUT SHE HAD TO STAND HER GROUND with him. And she did. Without any reactivity. It was always a response she felt entitled to and perfectly capable of delivering, which she did. And they'd scrap a bit, then go back to playing like kittens together in their life.
Scrapping is a part of life, IMO. Those who don't scrap or have arguments are more likely to fail in marriage, or so I hear.
You're working on the important things.
You're worth the time and effort and expense to M.
He seems to be worth it to you.
How's it going with the lovely couple's T?
Lighter
Oh, so familiar. You're right about that!
Hugs
Hops
PS She also said something that surprised me: that the widespread belief that people who are Ns or have many N-behaviors never ever change, is based on old research. That was an optimistic thought. NOT (hah) that M would have a wholesale personality transplant (I wouldn't want that anyway) but that she doesn't automatically assume he could never change any of his most triggering behaviors toward me. He is highly motivated to make our relationship last (even more than I am, because I am willing to leave). And I think she was suggesting that it's perhaps more useful to think about him in terms of him being profoundly insecure, rather than fixate on the N term. (She mentioned his deep insecurity. Not that I can't ever use the N ism vocabulary, but that other language for what he does is insecurity. I will find out if he can practice empathy, at least enough of it, with me.)
The couples-T, the Sikh, is kind enough to come to my back yard tomorrow, to do an outdoor session with us on my private back patio, since M has declared he feels "unsafe" going into the office building. I told her I had wondered whether it was really the virus he was scared of, or was it continuing a challenging conversation we had last time. She instantly said she thought it was the latter. I do too, but since M had already met with me in my back yard, and I assured him he would always be six feet away from the T, and he would be touching nothing the T had touched, he was safe. I think he has no excuse to wiggle out of it, so he's coming.
That Heather remedy description is amazingly spot on, Tupp. Thanks for that!
I would love for M to try something but unless it's evidence-based, he won't go there. I have to admit I'm pretty similar, about homeopathy and such. I believe it's all placebo, not that there's anything wrong with that!
Thanks, G. Learning is ongoing, definitely. I remember some of the folks in their 90s I worked with sharing realizations they'd had in very recent years. It was inspiring.
Hugs
Hops
VERY good question about a potential bolthole, Tupp. That's my hesitation, a fear of being trapped if it goes south. No, don't have one I can think of, and especially during the pandemic (second wave likely in fall) I don't feel I could impose on a friend. It also occurs to me that this idea (of moving there) could be an impulsive decision. I don't know. It might be a wise next step and would boost my savings account, but it also might be like the panicky premature house-hunting, an effort to get to the future and then relax. Hmmmmmm.....
M cannot move in with me. It's not an option. My second bedroom is also my study, which is private (again a tinge of trust, would he look through stuff?) and even though it also has a bed, because it's right behind my bedroom, his trumpet snoring would kill what's left of my sleep. My house would only suit a VERY close couple who sleep together; perfect for a YOUNG couple. And though I hope to be close one day, I'm never giving up my own room. Just been too long, and my sleep is too fragile. Sharing my sole bathroom would be challenge enough, but the lack of a dedicated bedroom for him that's at enough distance to mute the snoring is key. He once told me his late wife made him go sleep two floors down since the snoring was so intense.
hugs
Hops
In other words, don't send the message you believe you're asking for something you don't deserve and aren't worthy of. Your eyes, body language, and words should express confidence.
....and I had an oatmeal pan on the stove with a melted spatula in it. She looked at me and said: oh. You don't give that kind of impression.
She thinks so fast she's already responding to where she thinks I'm going to go often; and often she's WRONG.
Do you s'pose this is a defense mechanism that he projects on others, because he doesn't want to, is afraid of, getting into what he really feels? feelings in general?
Rhetorical question.... when you feel into your body...... do you feel M understands T, how he's the student... how you're both working on changes to bring you together in harmony?
Or do you have the feeling he's engaged bc he's interested in himself....happy to spend time with you as a couple's activity, rather than getting down to nitty gritty work?I know he started T because I made it clear I thought he needed it individually (told him he HAD to learn to manage his own anxiety) and later that we needed it together. His reaction to something I clearly state I want or need that will move our relationship forward is to say Yes. (I think he sensed in both decisions that if he refused he would likely lose me.) He isn't always receptive in individual difficult moments, but overall he seems entirely willing to hang in with therapy. I think he downgraded it a bit in his response to that big email only because something might have hurt. His ego has a tough time letting in less-pleasant information about himself. Mine too.
due to the asyncronous nature of texting, email, posting online - it doesn't matter if one waits their turn to speak or not. One can simply get things off their minds.
Do you think he's got bigger stuff he wants to say, Hops, but doesn't feel that he can? Or even know he wants to, really? I'm just playing Devil's Advocate a bit. There just seems to be a pattern (from the things you post) of him saying what he's supposed to rather than doing what he's supposed to (or what you ask him to, I suppose is more accurate). And almost like he's pleased when you get something 'wrong' because it gives him a chance to critique you? I don't really know how to explain it. I just feel like when I read about 'crouton gate' it seems like there is something bigger than croutons?
get your nose off the crouton
I saw some disturbing patterns emerging in your recent description. Disturbing for me; if I was in your shoes. I'm not going to go into them because you seem to be trying sort out the "why" or reason behind them yourself; quite well actually. That reason will be damned important going forward.
M going through your 'negative' attributes at times - does he do the same with your positive ones?
M's recitation of your positive traits. My ex did that.... The list never varied, they always came in a list together, and were usually recited to someone else ABOUT me.
This is often true, although periodically during the earlier part of our relationship he'd recite it to me often, and still dusts it off now and then. I feel as though the purpose is like "reminding himself of the relationship rationale" or something.
(My M...would exclaim delightedly about something when I was doing it
That sounds like the difference between present-ness and professor-ness. Sigh
you've not sacrificed yourself and allowed him to consume you
...wish it was the kind of world that we didn't have to go such extremes to stand up for and protect ourselves; to even be heard, recognized as a real person with our own feelings, and those feelings and boundaries acknowledged as important as the other person's...sometimes we have to and we CAN.
"...don't sound so serious. You've chosen what I think you have always wanted and sought: total independence. That always comes with a price."
H
((Hops)) Though M seems immune, you found the clarity you were Sikhing.
Lighter
And the further implication that you can't be independent within a relationship? There's a difference between being independent and being single - for some reason I don't think some men can separate the two when it comes to women.
That's a very good plan, Tupp.
I'm not too worried about who calls whom in October, and in fact I was the one to "slip" and email him last...he's backed off. He's not stalky, really. I need to let it go too. Despite all my upset about him, real attachment is still there and it'll take time.
I do need the time and space to just see where I am later. (It would be astonishing if we met in October and he'd gone to see someone about the raging ADHD, had taken some Rx, and all of a sudden he was in control of himself and more able to focus outward, listen, and things go well....blah blah.) That's exactly how I can spin off into fantasizing and I'm not going to let myself.
Meanwhile, still thinking of him a lot.
I think for now I'll do myself more good if I stay focused on home, garden, exercise, decluttering, those Zoom times with friends (not new men yet, though I'd like to know how one finds Zoom dating), and even...writing. It'll be very good for me.
hugs
Hops
the first says "I'm thinking about me!!!!!!!!!!" while the second says, "I'm thinking about you"
Q: Is there really always another bus?
I am 65 and would probably dump my boyfriend except for my belief that the chances of ever replacing him are slim to none. I was online for many years (with no good results) before we rekindled an old romance. I reached out to him on Facebook. I hadn't seen him in 30 years. We had lived together for one year back in '83-'84. For the most part he's a good boyfriend (affectionate, very helpful, generous, great sex partner, cooperative, funny) but when he's angry, he becomes verbally explosive and abusive. The things he says suggest he really doesn't like me, deep down. I'm very middle class, white collar, professional, highly educated. He has a high school diploma and is in construction. We have value differences that I believe make it hard to get along at times. That being said, as wonderful as I think I am, I don't believe I would find someone else at this age, as I've tried and it didn't happen. If I leave him, I'd give up a good sex life, a help mate, someone who "has my back." Essentially, I'd be alone. Which typically is OK with me, but as I get older I think it might be of benefit to have someone in my corner. (And yes, I know people die.) We tried couples therapy and he walked out during session 6. He's now in individual therapy. I've had a therapist most of my life. As I write this, it seems like I need to ask myself, can I tolerate his tantrums on occasion to compensate for the all the benefits of the relationship. And did I say, he's very handsome and I enjoy just looking at him? Too good to leave? Too bad to stay?
A: Carolyn Hax
There's an icky film that wants acknowledging--he's verbally abusive but, gosh, so hot?--and now that I've done that, I'm going to talk about something else.
Any time you're telling yourself to take a bad relationship because it's the best you can do, you're killing your soul a little.
Since you used the bus metaphor, I'll say where the bus metaphor is useful: voting. Take the bus (candidate) that gets you as close as possible to where you want to be, knowing perfection is not an option.
But when it comes to your companionship, commit to living your best life. That means asking yourself: Are you better for having this person in your life, or worse? Do you like yourself with this person, or not? It's about the value of what you have, in its own right, not its value relative to something else. It's the latter that brings the ick.
— JUL 17, 2020 12:57 EDT
Hmmm. Glad I wrote the above since it helps me remember what happened and why.
One thing about the daily several emails....in other circumstances, with another personality, I'd probably LOVE that form of staying connected and close.
I couldn't with M. And until I re-read my summary above, I'd forgotten.
M's emails were ALL and almost ALWAYS about him. I know he thought he was being affectionate with the XXXXXX and OOOOOOs. For him, he was. But I would honestly say that 1 in 25 of his breathless emails about everything he was doing and thinking...would he say something like "how are you doing?".
The man did not ask me any questions about myself. I was a human sound absorber. That was the deep downside. He just didn't have insight into how his personality affected others.
This was helpful, though it's probably boring to revisit. Skip at will! It just helped me to remind myself that I had multiple very good reasons for my choice. I'm remembering dazzling- or cute-puppy M. Not regularly deaf-to-me M.
Whew--
Hops
SM was the first serious relationship that lasted longer than a few months in many years. (One year, five months.)
regretting the time I wasted waiting for the divorce to be final
are honest to the point I over value their honesty and become.....
I have to watch my codependent tendencies
what someone is doing when we meet them is what they'll be doing in relationship with us. Not everyone requires monogamy....
I can respect honesty without rewarding it with trust. I can appreciate honesty without extending vulnerability.
....tendency to slip back into relationship with anyone; with M, when it's not going to be any different, is proof to yourself - that this isn't likely anymore
If I had been as perceptive and mature as you are about man-relationships in my 40s, Tupp, I would have been saved a Titanic load of grief.
Thank you for those thoughts. So spot on. The part-great, part-nightmare is astute. And so is the need for carefulness around my caregiving pleasures. Especially when I know it wouldn't really be reciprocal. He'd do anything dutiful needed for me I know, but if it lasted, his impatience would show. It'd bore him and boredom makes him nasty.
Your notion of removing a leg made me laugh out loud! I love your dark sense of humor. I'm not sure it'd be as effective as your old fashioned arse-kicking, though. Next time (hope there will be one) I get another hapless geezer in my sights, I'll send him over the pond first for a thorough Tupp evaluation.
hugs
Hops
PS New smaller heater's in, which is good, but they used the new gas lines they'd extended for the huge heater so what teensy floor space used to exist is now completely gone. I will never hire them again for anything. They also bashed the big heater into my storm door frame on the way out so it's loose and couldn't block drafts. I've put in my request for them to come back and fix that. Sheesh.
I think he can pull your strings - unintentionally or not.
he must have sensed your emotional upheaval starting and took advantage to press again for what he wants - without regard to your comfort or state of mind*. I sure wouldn't think it was possible to be friends with someone who treated me that way; that pressure - pushing - influence - give me what I want was a theme
to feel M release hope for a loving future with you. I think M felt he had to.....to sustain connection with you. I think his pulling back makes it real...the death of hope.
there's not enough compromise to fix it....and there never will be
Thank you, Tupp. You are so very very sane and I hope you know how stabilizing you are. I'm wallowing around with a broken rudder and you're pointing out that I also have perfectly serviceable oars. !!!!
I was pondering what you said about "Hope is the enemy" and you're right. That's not true.
I think what I was trying to tell myself back then was more akin to "Fantasy is my enemy." I KNOW that's true, in love relationships. Because I have a Post-PhD in fantasizing (a poet/writer imagination, all very nice, but in romance it can go on steroids and be very unhealthy).
I had spent literally several years FANTASIZING about a beautiful future with the man. And belatedly, about the time Reality Friend turned up in my mind, I recognized that the writerly imagination was actually a danger in real life connections with men. Fantasy. Instead of taking in what was real and showing patience for it all to reveal itself.
M was ready to commit to everything after two months, with incredible amounts of love-hyperbole in writing that were seductive and dizzying. Plus his endless pressure. I dragged my feet throughout but wanted the fantasy, too. Eventually, my fantasies smacked into the reality of how it felt too often.
I still believe that for me as an individual, Fantasy is an enemy (in relationships). Not hope. Thanks for helping me notice that.
Sheesh. Wish I'd reminded myself of what I had once learned. But I guess some lessons, for me anyway, one has to learn more than once.
hugs
Hops
I suspect M feels more comfortable when you are feeling vulnerable and/or not in control. I think it's be pretty natural for someone who only feels safe when he is in control, to start interacting more happily when the other is not.
...when we end a relationship because it's not JUST not working for us - but is actually harming us - there's an outpouring of apologies, peace offerings of the "friend zone", and even casting ourselves into a negative light as "less than" and "not up to the task"... all to excuse and not wound the male ego. And that might be some programmed maternal instinct that gets all twisted up into something unrecognizable in romantic relationships.
I see that struggle to maintain some kind of connection as a "fight" response. (Explaining that point of view, is complicated; has to do with power struggles.
I think the power struggle to be seen as one wants to see oneself absolutely applied to me...about 30 years ago. With M I've been much quicker than I was in youth to recognize deep incompatibilities and just figure it's more "he can't" than "he won't." For me, having it all sink in after a year and 5 months is speedy compared to the yearning cycles I was in during a couple relationships in my 40s that left damage in their wake that lasted for years.
I think standing up for yourself, asking for what you need and, finally, willingness to do battle was part shield and part messenger limiting the time and trauma to yourself. At least, I suspect that's a part of fewer wounds, less time invested trying when you saw only words sans action.
I don't think M has damaged me that way. Being in that relationship has been overall good for me. I agree. It brought me out of over 20 years of only imagining myself solo -- I still wanted connection theoretically, but had no actively "coupled" experience in the world for that long. I got to find out that my rusty heart could still feel love for a partner. Ultimately, it just turned out that I can't alter the hardest aspects of his personality and (the harder part) don't need to. Want to, sure -- but that's the unwinnable power struggle. I am just not up for that much trying....it's time for the universe to offer me a little ease. If it does, lovely. If it doesn't, I can plod on working to create it within myself.
I think the only way to "win" my peace is just to do peace. To find that internal detachment Lighter talks about and practice it, any time I'm in his presence. When I think of M, I picture him reacting and reacting to his past...parents, ex wife, failures.....ego wounding he's patched over with thick, defensive walls. He can't see or hear much past them, but he assumes and takes for granted his will is enough...wanting will carry him and you through....his will carried him into a successful career. He doesn't understand how it's working against him in relationship with you. His ego can't take the hit, so he flinched from self reflection and names you the problem, imo.
I also think M over values what he brings to relationship table....for many men, breadwinner is THE only job they feel obligated to fill. Maybe M doesn't understand he's obligated to listen, share, take turns bc he doesn't understand healthy relationships. He understands selfish nurturing baby relationship, and youre6the adoring cheerleader. Some women are comfortable in that limited role, but they make a deal.....the happy ones find their joy elsewhere. They aren't reactive....they go with the flow, are nice to the breadwinner and engaged happily with their own interests....at least that's what I've observed in the more successful relationships with men similar to M.
And if that doesn't go well for me, or it seems upsetting or unreachable, then that makes him someone I should not spend much time with. You see what's there and underneath, Hops. With curiosity, knowing you can walk anytime you want to.
Not to "wrong" M, but to right myself when I'm blown off balance. Getting blown off balance is opportunity to experiment....to figure out how to find your true North.
I was talking to my T yesterday and she observed (again) that I am very sensitive. I think that's true. It's not always a good thing. Works well for poetry, but not for the prose of living. Sometimes, which Hol might have felt too, it just hurts too much not to be appreciated or valued, so one has to avoid an ungenerous spirit that's so consumed with itself it can't give you that basic behavior. Listening and respecting.
Maybe one figures out how to gift oneself a generous spirit, listening and unwavering respect. Maybe that creates enough of everything.
Enjoy your outing, Hops. Just see what's there: )
Lighter
hugs
Hops
He's not your dream, but he's safety and companionship in the moment.
we have to practice "releasing the INcoming" too? Incoming love - or attempts at same
a relationship with him doesn't work because of various aspects of his personality that are too much
a lesser relationship with him won't work because it doesn't meet the need for close daily contact
the needs of [edit to make it me] LATER life aren't mingling in that definition. There isn't such pressure to "provide", "make a home"
INTERdependent relationships are when there isn't a consistent role, or pattern that exists in interaction - when people take turns with the roles, and the things provided are different, yet still serving a practical or emotional purpose for the other
believing that things are doable is so natural when you're a fixer/carer/giver etc. Effort = anything is possible.
If he can welcome me as a diversion/distraction now and then, I can view him the same way.
someone who looks at what's around him and sees beauty and joy and a sense of connection
Because you used to hand out forks to zombies
seeing how you feel - do you feel good or does he make you feel anxious, restless, hurried etc - consciously or not
If I'm in full control of my sanity I will remember: this process of opening to the possibility of good things happening -- is about my OWN dream of vital shared and trusting life companionship. Not dates that are like exciting movies, which end.
...when we let the fantasy horse lead, one can let the heart space start to "believe" prematurely. It's secret, you know. Except it's not, really. It's better to keep a tight rein on that horse. Pay attention to the practical plodder more and give the whole team more time and practice before making that decision to let the heart space just do it's thing. If one stands in our power of choice and discernment when those feelings start to filter in, and threaten to wander away into the more imaginative and emotionally charged thoughts - one is better able to protect one's own "touchy" issues and more clearly see the partner through his actions and behaviors. By that point, one knows if one can extent enough trust to "go there" - into the heart space - and still be safe.
T was helpful. I teared up for a change (almost never cry there).
I just described the way I've been feeling, weird layer peeling away by layer, since his sons came. And how irritable and stultified I've felt over our repetitive "go over for dinner once a week and talk about the same subjects and nothing personal ever." And then the Big Talk on Monday. And how he slipped in some truths: Don't wanna change my life at all for anybody, and stay here and keep me company weekly anyway but on my schedule....and: don't be a defective "stroke" person, since I might suffer if you died and that's not acceptable. And, I love your dog. (That was a good one.)
She got it. Got pretty pissed about his stroke comment. Told me I'm doing really good work. I realized I am just doing the next (and fortunately, a later) stage of grief. I really did have a lot to grieve when our relationship fell apart, and now it's not a "faux" friendship but has been a weird one since. For me. He's entirely happy with how I've been slotting into his needs. I admire his honesty. I don't necessarily like HIM, but am always grateful when people gift me with honesty so I can finally FINALLY peg down my feelings about the reality of the situation.
I made a big step. He sent me the usual "come to dinner" invite and I replied that I am going to wait a week more and figure it out then. Woo HOO, brave Hops! I bet that felt SO GOOD. He might get very happyfriendly soon. Expect it.
Who knows? By this time next week maybe I'll either be: Brave enough to cut the last thread or realize I'm strong enough to enjoy what's good that lingers and go over anyway. Who would you make that decision for? Why would you make it?
DO you NEED to force that ? Soon? Now? Why? I say.... you don't have to do anything. If you want to think about it. Think. If you want to putitdown.... PID. If you want to pick it back up... PIBU. And no excuses or explanations are necessary, ever, particularly to your friends. You can calmly turn it over in your mind and see what's there, but you don't have to judge it, Hops. Not good or bad.
Ever. Just what you want or don't want in that moment of thought and it's perfectly OK. It always has been.
Why is it so difficult to drop into the moment? Why is it so hard to stop worrying about the past and the present? I KNOW we're conditioned and trained and develop pathways to DO that, but once we SEE it..... it's still so difficult, IME.
Dunno which. I feel like apologizing to every friend I have for taking so long and talking so interminably about this relationship and its death or change spiral. But But. You don;t owe anyone an explanation or excuse or reason for doing what needs doing.
IME we (yes, the royal one) do this automatically, without thinking about it and it slows the process of moving through the thing we're trying to figure out EVERY DARN TIME. it's the most significant bond I've had with any man in over 20 years, and there were so many confusing carrots hanging off my halter, that it's just going to take the time it takes. Seeking/Avoidance forces are driving our lives and will as long as we get pushed and pulled by the fear and desire for comfort. That might not make sense right now, but I don't edit my posts, bc I choose not to. I know what it means and you can ask if you want clarification THAT FEELS WONDERFUL to just write and leave it behind without checking and changing, it truly does.
I've decided I have my own permission to bore people. Sorry, dear Amazons. But thank you...more than you know! Feel free to bore yourself further on my YARD thread. It's it amazing?!?!?! It's GRAND!! Don't you apologize, ever again for penning your truth here, of all places, for these Amazons and the Amazons who come after. Honestly, Hops. I remember when you told me to stop apologizing all the time....and you said other wise things, but at the time that was my take away. Yet, we keep seeing lessons come round and round again and again, don't we? !
hugs and love,
Hops
PS-- So I sent C a message explaining the incoherent connections (email? text? -NO- dating site?) were daunting and that I sympathize and he's off the hook if it's just too cumbersome to organize. He just replied and said he'd be on the train TOMORROW. I gently explained the concept of "not without notice, I have a life" (not in so many words) and we scheduled it for later this month. Hah. Fun I hope. I'm curious now, Hops. Just what DO you have going on tomorrow that can't bbe put off? Do you want to meet this fellow? Whatever you choose, it's OK and you don't owe anyone an explanation for your choices.
Lighter
If you want to think about it. Think. If you want to putitdown.... PID. If you want to pick it back up... PIBU. And no excuses or explanations are necessary, ever, particularly to your friends. You can calmly turn it over in your mind and see what's there, but you don't have to judge it
We are designed to work for and create what we want/need. And fight for our selves, too. To create our own safety.
sounds like he's punishing himself for outliving his wife to me. Rolling around in what he's lost, like a little dog in it's mess and that's part of getting through it, ime.
...this isn't a rejection, OK? It's an admission that he's feeling uncomfortable with his own feelings about what he wants. It's good he respects you enough to be honest about it.
Just be a light in his world and keep being your happy self, ((Hops.)). That he's an honest Scot is a good thing, imo.
People like being around folks who make them feel better/good. Remember boundaries and keep seeking joy.
PS Tupp -- That must have hurt SO much. To be an emotional nurse to a man you carried love and hopes about, help him heal emotionally by being so open to his needs and sharing so much time ... and then find out he's all ready to go forth -- to someone else.
I'm sending him a flabby arse-kicking. I'm sorry that happened to you. No wonder you're a romance-realist. I'm taking notes.
hugs
Hops
- "Helping him - as just a friend - restraining my own dreams - as just a friend - helping him gain perspective - as just a friend" set my codependency bells off. This is a huge undertaking for a guy you've been out with twice and who has done absolutely nothing for you, as a friend. And no need for him to, because he hardly knows you, and you hardly know him.