Sadistic N's

[Dawning]

Has anyone encountered what I would describe as a sadistic N?  One who derives pleasure from seeing other people suffer and knowing that they had a part in it;  one who toys with others in order to get their way.  Can anyone shed some light on what makes these people sadistic? In my case, if I may speak candidly, he only seemed to be sadistic when the sexual aspect came up.  Otherwise, he was interesting to talk with if a bit self-centered and confused (but aren't we all to some degree?)  I tried to move away from the sexual aspect but it would always surface.  When I tried to date other people or do fun things for my personal enjoyment, he would send me emails talking about his depression.

Dictionary.com defines *sadistic* in this way:

The deriving of sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others.

The deriving of pleasure, or the tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty.

Extreme cruelty.

If anyone has had any experiences with this type of person, going through something similar now or recovered and lived on to see a better day...I would appreciate any thoughts.

One of my friends suggested that I just leave him to his own devices.  I think that is good advice.  Unfortunately, we do tend to run into each other occassionally.  I have reason to believe he is dating a girlfriend of mine that I introduced to him.  I would appreciate it if either of them could let me know this (and it very well may be none of my business) because I dread running into them as a couple and fear becoming emotional b/c I know that, rather than work out our misunderstanding, he chooses to go the sadistic route.  What makes a person do that?  This is my first time to actually see the sadistic nature for what it is and it is hard to process it at the present time.  I know it has something to do with my father and I've tried to explain that to him (without going into extreme detail) but it just makes his words more sadistic.  I've learned my lesson there though: no talking with this man about my childhood experiences.  Thanks for listening.  It helps to give voice to this.

[Portia]

Hi Dawning, nice to see you again! But sorry for your post, sounds like you’re not happy at all.

You got me thinking. I thought a bloke was sadistic, many years ago. I thought he was deliberately hurting me to get pleasure from hurting and seeing me unbalanced, crying etc. But now I think about it differently.

When I thought he was hurting me on purpose, I now think he was instead doing what he wanted to get his needs filled. He didn’t recognise that I was hurt, he only got his needs met. I remember his eyes once, I looked for some relating to me, something in his eyes that saw me as another person. It wasn’t there. His eyes were glassed over, he was totally inside his own head, fulfilling whatever ancient need was in there. Mother stuff I guess. It was absolutely nothing to do with me. I could have been any-body. He treated people as objects (at work, at home, everywhere) to be manipulated for his own ends, as Ns do.

Is this sadism? Not really. Sadists I think get their pleasure from seeing the suffering of another person, and to do that, they must recognise that another person exists. They do relate to others as people like themselves, people who can suffer. I don’t know about sadism, I haven’t read up on it, this is just my take. Take that old joke:

Masochist: “Hurt me”
Sadist: “No….”

These two have to relate to each other, understand each other’s needs. Ns simply don’t relate all. They just take, whether you enjoy it or not. Your response is not important, unless it frustrates them getting what they want.

About this chap and your friend. If you’re no longer seeing him, I’m afraid it isn’t anything to do with you. If she is still your friend, it’s up to her to tell you. Maybe it isn’t serious to her, maybe she hasn’t decided whether to keep it going with him….maybe she’s a sadist! But honestly, if you only run into this chap occasionally, he may not think that he any connection with you any more.

Perhaps one of the most hurtful things we can discover is that the person we think about, actually hardly ever thinks about us. We simply don’t figure in their lives. Bit like my mother and me! Don’t know if any of this might help Dawning, P

Just read your post again D…what do you mean his words are sadistic? Can you give an example…? To me that would be saying things to be deliberately hurtful – for example, saying to me: “of course your mother never wanted you, you were an ugly, demanding baby”. Sadists will know in advance that I’ll be upset and they will stay and watch my reaction with pleasure. Does he do that? Or is he an N, with no thought for your reaction? Either way....I'd steer clear of him too, as your other friends suggest.

[Dawning]

Hi Portia.     Thanks for your reply.  Actually, I am happy in a weird sort of way.  I felt like a feral creature who is now forging positive and honest relationships and not so concerned about whether the person will like me or not.  There is just this little bit that I had to get out.

Your response is not important, unless it frustrates them getting what they want.

THAT is a very interesting comment.  It makes total sense to me and puts things in perspective.  Thank *you.*

Sadists I think get their pleasure from seeing the suffering of another person, and to do that, they must recognise that another person exists. They do relate to others as people like themselves, people who can suffer

Exactly.

If she is still your friend, it’s up to her to tell you. Maybe it isn’t serious to her, maybe she hasn’t decided whether to keep it going with him….maybe she’s a sadist! But honestly, if you only run into this chap occasionally, he may not think that he any connection with you any more.

Thanks for this.  Very empowering.  I'm trying to forget the whole thing happened.  Some days are easier than others.

what do you mean his words are sadistic?

Well, in his last email he said that he told me some *things* (didn't elabaorate) that other people wouldn't tell me so I could go on believing that what I was saying was true.  I couldn't get my brain around this.  What I am saying IS true to me at this point in time.  I don't lie to get what I want.  Honesty is very important to me.  And I am learning that to be honest with oneself is a kind of freedom.  I have finally found my voice and - a little angry here - I won't have someone tell me that what I am saying is *not true.*  That pissed me off.  Engage me, ask me questions but don't tell me my words are *untrue.*  That hit a raw nerve -manipulative parents.  My words were a threat to them.   What gives him the right to tell me that my words are *not true* unless he could be a little specific.  (Parents again.)   If he chooses to believe my words are *not true* then he doesn't have to listen - that goes hand in hand with my emotional detachment from my parents.   Why attempt to deride me of any confidence I have in my words?

The other thing is he said that he wasn't *unintentionally cruel* which my friend pointed out was an oxymoron.  Conversely, the same friend suggested, to say that you did not *intentionally mean to hurt someone* is logical.

Thanks for your questions, P.     xxxooo

[Portia]

Back again D.   You know what? I like you, I think you’re pretty cool. And when I read that some good-for-nothing jerk has been messing with your head, it makes me mad.   I want to come and give ‘em a good verbal lashing on your behalf! Why are you attracted to these losers? I call ‘em losers coz they don’t seem to have any social/relationship skills. They don’t sound very ‘deep’ if you know what I mean. They might be materially successful, but in the brains department…? Sorry, this is all very judgemental, partly sexist and partly brain-ist but sometimes a real dirty opinion can help. You deserve better D! And it’s up to you to reject this head-trip manipulative stuff. Chat to the chap in the coffee shop reading Plato or poetry or that chap in MacDonalds having an access day with his kids. Oh no, don’t tell me these are the same men as the one you’re talking about…

Seriously: did this bloke say: “I told you some things that others wouldn’t, so that you can carry on believing that what you say is true”. Have I got that right?

If so, he’s saying “I have lied to you, to protect you from the awful truth – that you are wrong”.

What a superior, manipulative, shitty, idiotic piece of garbage. But quite clever, in a superficial N way. So he knows the only True Truth does he? Rubbish! I wonder if you’ve dented his fragile ego (poor thing) and he needs to re-establish his superiority to you? Coz that BS about your truth – the intention is to make you doubt yourself. It’s a direct attack.

Life really is this competitive sometimes, between men and women. Some men don’t actually like women very much and do a lot of what they do to put women down so they can feel superior. I think you’re a challenge to them because you think, you have a brain, and some men do not like that in a woman. So they’ll try to ‘win’ you, ‘defeat’ you and then move on. But when questioned by you, they have to use their cunning to f*ck about with your head, in case you realise their objective (by then they’ve realised that you’re a threat to them, coz you can think).

It’s great to be persecuted. It means you can think, independently of social conditioning. Obedient, unquestioning people don’t get persecuted. You have great strengths D, please don’t allow some jerk (male or female) to undermine them.

Ack.

he said that he wasn't unintentionally cruel

– translates to “I am intentionally cruel, I know what I’m doing” (sub-text: “so you’d better be careful and not risk my cruelty, you inferior being”)….

To use a CG expression: spew, chuck, spew!  He’s such a clever, evil, nasty “you’d better be careful of me coz I’m sooooo powerful” twit isn’t he? Who does he think he is? Hannibal Lector? The evil adversary that James Bond always has? He’s living in a fantasy land and it’s all about power. He wants to imagine he has power over you and others. It’s a common thing: control/power fantasies, and it ties in with the secret sadism in the bedroom department. It’s probably the only place he can take any power! Wonder how he’d cope with a proper gun-toting posse out for him?

Hey maybe this reminds me of my step-dad! He didn’t like women who think either. Yep, got that button sorted… .thanks (((Dawning)))

[bunny]

Can anyone shed some light on what makes these people sadistic? In my case, if I may speak candidly, he only seemed to be sadistic when the sexual aspect came up.  Otherwise, he was interesting to talk with if a bit self-centered and confused (but aren't we all to some degree?)  I tried to move away from the sexual aspect but it would always surface.  When I tried to date other people or do fun things for my personal enjoyment, he would send me emails talking about his depression.

Sadism (imo) gets internalized when a person was treated sadistically by their parents. That's how they perceive relationships. To them, relationships are about being a victim or an aggressor and they prefer being the aggressor. BTW they also feel like the victim. Bottom line, relationships with people who operate sadistically are futile. They aren't going to change the way they see relationships.

Most sadism that I see in others is unconscious. They aren't "trying" to be sadistic. It's such an integral part of their operating system that it is "normal" to them. They just see human interactions this way.

The optimal solution (sorry to say) is avoiding this person, not engaging with them because it will always turn into some creepy interaction. They have a problem, you can't fix it, and all they will do is hurt you intentionally or unintentionally. So it's up to you to protect yourself.

take care,
bunny

[Dawning]

Portia and bunny,

I want to thank both of you for your replies and comments.  HELPFUL beyond my ability to communicate how spot-on your words were.  They really reasonated.  I think you both are pretty cool too.  

Yes, its definitely a power trip - something that is hard to see sometimes.  I guess I got used to it way back when.  But I am learning.   I'm glad to not be hung up on him anymore.  I know where I made my mistakes.  In any case, I've wasted enough energy on it and many on this board have been a great help.  Thanks for your concern and your perceptivity. (no lack of that here.   - thank goodness.)

Its wonderful when you get feedback to remind you that you are not the *bad person.*  I think alot of us on this board were told we were *bad,* *wrong,* etc....and so its easy to internalize it.  

Thanks again.
xxxooo