Forgiveness

[Hopalong]

I had created myths as to why I couldn’t forgive my mother – the myth that she must accept my forgiveness, that she didn’t deserve it, and most of all that what she had done was unforgivable.  I realised now I needed to let go of these myths because as long as I tried to collect what my mother owed me, I would never move forward in my life. 
--Sammy Rangel (www.forgivenessproject.com), victim of severe abuse; former prison gang leader

This man (esp. his quote in bold, above) blew me away. It startled me. I'd never thought of forgiveness this way. And though his childhood story is horrific, his TedX talk is extremely inspirational. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOzJO6HRIuA

This thread is not to suggest that anyone who is not interested in or not ready to contemplate forgiveness should. But since many of the things we go through, share, vent about, continue to hurt from, need to heal from, or are working on...may possibly eventually raise that question as we heal, here's a thread where people can think out loud about forgiveness. Doing it, not wanting to, resenting the implications, liking it, benefiting, feeling re-victimized by the concept, or whatever is true for us as individuals wherever we happen to be.

Fwiw,
Hops

[Hopalong]

I am interested in how forgiveness, even as a concept, can feel like a guilt trip. (If one isn't feeling it.) And btw, I don't mind just yakking with myself about it here!

I don't know why, but I have read a lot about it. It just now seems more layered, subtle and interesting than I knew, when as a child it was more a blunt instrument of religion. (I'm sure a lot of my interest has to do with hurt over my daughter and how I've learned to accept her choice so now it's very seldom hurting as it did for years.)

I think victims of any sort need to know what it is if they are drawn to experiencing it. It's not the same experience or epiphany for each person, either. It's only a word. Can be triggering, anxiety/anger producing, or relieving and calming. I'm actually very interested in any concept that can do both of those things! It has contradictory power.

As a kid, what I learned about forgiveness and turning the other cheek led directly to more suffering, acceptance of bad treatment, low self-esteem, internalised mysogyny and inability to love myself (because I had to be sacrificial and love and forgive everybody else, including bullies, brutes and Ns). I did all that. But also came to believe there was something toxic and dangerous in it. It's a complex human idea, I think.

But the word/concept kept floating back, so I kept reading. The particular descriptions of it that I am most attracted to now, in my 60s, do not have to do with the ways premature and dogmatic forgiveness harmed me before. The stories I'm drawn to now have to do with epiphanies, release and peace. How those feel.

I was talking about it with a friend yesterday. She had a similar moment with her cruel Nmother at the end of her life. Some doctor had belatedly given her mother an antidepressant and after years of ill treatment, her Nmother had lifted out of it and apologized, expressing genuine remorse over how she had mistreated my friend. (My moment was when Nmother showed genuine sorrow over my brother's treatment of me. Her heart was affected. It was brief that she lifted out of Nism and denial, but it was real mothering. I immediately felt the difference. And, bam. Healing of my heart was just instant.) I lived with Nmom like Cinderella for 10 years before that moment! But it's also true that the power of it expanded instantly into grace as large as my suffering had been. I was all right from that moment on. She's been gone 6 years and the peace is still there. The power of that moment wasn't exaggerated, the healing of our relationship was complete and permanent.)

So what do people do who never, or can never, receive a moment of atonement or validation about harm done to them? Maybe that's why I'm so drawn to what people say who have found they found themselves drawn to forgiveness. Especially those who did NOT receive any remorse or regret.

In most of those stories on The Forgiveness Project, it winds up being about the self, and not about forgetting or excusing or reconciling with the other. It just helps them let go of their own injury, stop squeezing it long enough for it to heal.

I entirely forgave Nmom. And I have no choice inside about my D. I forgive her too because not to would be to extinguish who I am. I ask myself, have I forgiven my socioNsomething brother? I believe I have. Same time, I have no yearning to reunite ever, prefer not to ever see him again. I never or almost never think of him. Surprises me. But when I do I remember feeling compassion for him (knowing he's dangerous). His eyes were full of pain.

The one I'm still not forgiving? Nboss. He had such literal power over my livelihood, and his Nabuse was so wily, and his appropriation of "spiritual specialness" so nauseating to me. Yet even as an adult, I accepted the abuse because of the paycheck. I was too demoralized and drained during the decade of Nmom care to go carve out a brand-new career at the same time. That's my excuse, anyway. So maybe part of the reason I haven't forgiven him yet is that it's only been a year, and my self-sabotage meant he got to reject me before I could reach my own chosen date and leave him. Maybe the person I haven't really forgiven yet for how it went with Nboss is myself. Dunno. But I do know I am still dealing with bitterness when I think of him. Less and less as time passes, but it's not done.

[lighter]

(((Hops)))

It's comforting, and helpful to read your thoughts on forgiveness. 

Sometimes I think I've forgiven someone only to realize it's not entirely true.  Another layer comes up, and I deal with it, or try.  It would be easier if I experienced it the way you did in the case with your mother.   

As for forgiving your brother and recognizing his pain......
these things didn't make him safe. 

It takes wisdom to recognize you can't save someone, despite your compassion for them.  Sometimes withdrawal with love is the only rational choice, IME.
 
Lighter

 

[JustKathy]

So what do people do who never, or can never, receive a moment of atonement or validation about harm done to them?

This is why I was never able to forgive, though in my case, I'm not completely sure of what forgiveness really is. Is it verbally communicating it to the N, or just some form of peace you find within yourself? Either way, I couldn't do it.

Hops, I'm really surprised to hear that both you and your friend experienced breakthrough moments with your N-Mothers near the end. I really didn't think they were capable of that. My own NM tormented me until she took her last breath, so, shameful as this sounds, I was relieved, almost gleeful when I got the news. I don't think about forgiveness at this point. I know that when she was alive, she felt that I was the one who should be begging for forgiveness as I "hurt her so badly." I think, where I'm at with her now, is merely acceptance of what she was. I'll never know if she was aware of her abuse or not. I've certainly spent enough time trying to analyze it, but really have no idea. The therapists I've seen all seem to agree that there's just know way to know.

So this brings me to my father, who is still living. I've gone completely NC with him, and suspect that will not change. At this point, I don't imagine I'll ever see him again. I don't want to. As with my mother, I have no idea if he's aware of his cruelty, but I strongly suspect that he's oblivious. If I were to reach out and tell him that I forgive him, his response would be, "Forgive me for what?" When he disinherited me, he rubbed it in my face a hundred different ways, while simultaneously sending holiday cards. He was apparently unable to see how unbearably cruel his actions had been. What was being put forward to me, by both him and my sister (the newly appointed GC), was that they didn't understand my hurt because, hey, it was to be expected. Why on earth would I ever think I deserved to be in the will?

But for me this wasn't about money (they really have none). This was a very strong statement that I was not loved, and not worthy of being included in their final goodbye. This has been the most painful aspect of my N FOO experience, to be sure.

I will say that I contemplate the idea of forgiveness more with my Co-Father than I ever did with my NM, being that his situation is more complex. NM was just plain evil. Co-F actually demonstrated that he had the ability to love, but instead chose to harm in order to please his queen. As time goes on, I think less about her actions, and more about the things he did to me all the way back to my teen years, horrible things, done to make NM happy. If he had ANY remorse, for ANY of the things he did, he could have offered an apology. Instead, he continued to guilt me every year after my mother passed, only stopping this year. If he had offered even a hint of an apology, a generic, "I'm sorry if I said something that upset you," then I would have contacted him. But, no, nothing but attempts to guilt me. Forgiveness could still happen, though I'm going to guess ... probably not.

So here I am babbling, and probably not offering any kind of insight. My head swirls with bad memories all the time. I'm in a constant state of emotional pain, confusion, anxiety. Maybe in years to come, when my father has passed, I'll start to see things differently. Maybe. My brother and sister will still be around, both refusing contact with me on the orders of a dead woman. It's a very tangled web that has been woven, to be sure. They were brainwashed. Do you forgive someone who is brainwashed? Can that brainwashing ever be undone? Only time will give me the answers. Perhaps there is a place for forgiveness with them.

Kathy

[Hopalong]

Your mother was made of cinderblock, (((((((Kathy))))))). I am so very sorry. Hard to grieve for a cinderblock.

One thing flew up for me, which is in those stories (www.forgivenessproject.com  -- not dot org)... many of them don't include anything about speaking to or seeing an abuser in order to forgive. Many just decided to do it on their own, inside themselves. I disagreed with Desmond Tutu's dictum that forgiveness cannot happen without the offender asking for it and expressing remorse. That's a religious prescription that some may wish to follow but we are free human beings. Nothing else I've read about it recently suggests that you have to "collect" the remorse before you can consider it. All I can really say is that reading so many of the stories kind of strengthened me a lot. For a lot of situations. They might bring you some peace too, whether you take that path or not.

For some it may be necessary to hear or witness remorse before forgiving. I had forgiven my mother anyway. Her "remorse moment"--it wasn't really remorse toward me, but it was empathy for me in that moment. That was enough. Her suffering and vulnerability as she declined melted my withholding as well as all I'd learned about her childhood) so I was able to get to a peaceful, compassionate space with her. (In some ways I was so fortunate that she lived to 98 because it did take full ten years for me to reach emotional completeness with her. In other ways--and earlier in the thick of the hard, hard effort--I often anticipated being free when she died. Not evil. It's just what happens to exhausted caregivers. (Or abused children.)

In your situation, that relief and even glee are just human. I mean they didn't write, "With great sorrow we pronounce that the witch is dead." They sang DING! DONG! with bells pealing.

love,
Hops

[JustKathy]

Her "remorse moment"--it wasn't really remorse toward me, but it was empathy for me in that moment.

When weighing the two, I really feel that empathy is much harder, and requires more actual emotion than remorse does. Any sign of empathy coming from an N is HUGE. I think I could have forgiven my NM (at least internally) if I had witnessed empathy.

Just thinking about the two, remorse could be nothing more than a tinge of guilt. For example, I once reprimanded an employee for going through my desk and stealing something. Today, I feel some remorse for coming down so hard on the guy, but I can’t empathize with him for what was basically bad workplace behavior. Convicted killers often tell the families of their victims that they feel remorse prior to sentencing, but rarely do those victims say that they felt empathy from the person. Remorse is more of an apology, where empathy is a true heartfelt emotion.

You may be right that your mother’s long lifespan gave her the time she needed to really reflect on things. My mother passed at the relatively young age of 74. When you’ve made it to 98, I think your views change for a number of reasons. Perhaps the aging mind lets go of some of the narcissist traits, possibly involuntarily. From what we know, it’s a learned behavior. Here’s a thought. Would an elderly N with dementia or Alzheimer’s unlearn or forget the behavior? Either way, I'm so very glad that your mother arrived at that place. It may not have done much for her at that age, but sounds like a pretty life-altering moment for you.

Hugs.