Heist on Something....

[lighter]

Oy, and....

::Thinking carefully before typing::.

When we don't want to know what's happening to us, we become confused,IME. 

I interpret this situation as opportunity, Hops.  Talk about this, then listen to his responses.  Believe him if he's entitled, short and irritated over not getting what he wants.  This is the Jelly moon dating phase.....everyone pointing their toes, best foot forward and all that.   Believe him when he shows you who he is, bc he's unlikely to become kinder, more caring than he is now, IME   

Be your own advocate. What would you want for your best friend? 

And.....He might regret making you feel pressured.fearful.  He may be clueless, blinded by what he assumes is mutual lust, etc.  If you don't talk about it, he can't tell you his truth.

 And we're strong, Hops.  We can put up with, explain away and excuse a lot.  The frog in the pot is so true.  Learning the truth later won't make it better, IME.  Maybe worse.

 If we suspend judgement and fear, when we have the fearful conversations...
If we approach instead with curiosity only...  if we lean into  trust we can handle whatever truth may come, what will happen?

  Lean into gratitude for your instincts, and ability to efficiently base decisions on the truth.

 Remember.... radical acceptance, Hops.  Remember.

Maybe security, and relationship outweighs the negative in this relationship?  You won't know until you see the truth, whatever it is. 

Asking men for their opinions is easy IF you suspend judgement, IME.

It gets easier if you respectfully appreciate their honesty, no matter how you feel about it, IMO. 

They'll tell you their truth if they aren't reading your negative facial expressions and body language I've found.  Appearing very curious, bordering on fascinated by their opinions no matter what they say, helps channel real honesty.  We can't ask leading questions, with huge expectations, and expect total honesty. 

You don't have to eat this elephant in one bite.  Ask questions, listen, suspend judgement and think about his responses before addressing them at another time.  Take pressure off yourself..... getting to know someone takes time, and you have the right to give yourself however much time you require.

Breath.  Gather information.  You can figure this out, and you will.  In the meantime​, tell this man what your boundaries are, and insist he respect them.....do it without fretting or guilt.  Stick to them.  Don't budge.  Try to use humor.  Give him opportunity to explain his feelings.  Dies he want to know how you feel?  Does he care?

If he continues to cross boundaries you have the option  if restating the boundary....

"I'm not ready to give up making out like teenagers only yet. If you move past that again, I'll know you aren't interested in building a relationship with me."
Then listen to what he says and does. 

I'm tapping this out on my phone, so lacking brevity here. 

Lighter

[lighter]

One more thing.....

A man who ignores a woman's NO.....who tries to change it into a YES is waving a red flag.

Don't ignore it.  Face it, and know you have every right to do so.

:: nodding::..

It's ok if he pouts or goes away in a bad mood.....he has to honor the boundary.

You have to endure your discomfort with his displeasure....this isn't yours to fix.  Giving in, to keep the peace, isn't an option.  He has to figure out if he cares about your needs and feelings, even if he doesn't get what he wants short term.

He might have to figure this out the hard way.

 You might decide he's not worth the bother.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

Oh my gosh.

Again, thank you all so MUCH.

This deep degree of reflection, insight, and encouragement is absolutely beyond price. I can't even express it. I would have to be in the world's greatest therapy group with trusted comrades for years to even begin to be able to verbalize to you how helpful this is.

I am so grateful. I have read and re-read all of your posts and am processing them quite deeply right now. Each of you has said something (multiple somethings) that is SO strengthening, insightful and powerfully useful. I am just amazed at the power of it.

I feel not alone, that my team of Amazons are flapping their [feathery, leathery, brass?] wings all around me for the next time I deal with him. I have a lot to take in from what you've said and it's all like some kind of healing power potion. Thank you.

It's just an extraordinary gift, and you each should know how profoundly it's appreciated.

Will update as soon as I know or figure out or experience the next ... whatever it will be.

Much love,
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

It seems there's a unamimous consensus here, and I'm not gonna break it either. I have a BUNCH more to say, but on the phone with realtor and have to go get the mail. Back in a few minutes.

Yeah, my life has been like this all week. LOL. You'd think I was trying to do business over the holidays or something.

OK, the matter at hand:

Look, all's fair in love and war. So, you're gaining experience in what HE thinks is fair. That said, if you "don't wanna" - you truly DO. NOT. OWE. HIM. ANYTHING. Remember what I said about guys seeing relationships - especially dating - in terms of transactions? This is it. Up to this point, you've enjoyed each other's company. And that is IT. If for any reason you are now uncomfortable - you can postpone the next date, make it long enough to sort yourself out, whatever... there is no contract you'd be breaking. You don't need to blame him, either.

You are enjoying the "getting to know you phase" without much that could be called sex. Ain't nothin' wrong with that! He doesn't like it - tough titty. (that was intentional...)

You have to set the pace for YOU; what you're comfortable with. That's in your job description. And what I'm hearing is something I'm acquainted with - that reluctance. It's a complicated, knotty ball of yarn/issues really. And I think you DO need to pull back long enough, that you have time to sort it out - with your T, talking to friends, the Amazons... Whatever works. When you've identified the issues, then you can decide what, if anything needs to be done about them. They're yours; and probably don't have a thing to do with him, even if how he is behaving triggered the feelings.

The word "negotiate" has several meanings. And it's applicable here. It CAN mean - the same thing as "navigate", as in - the soldier carefully negotiated the minefield. (I'm rolling my eyes at myself; dang martial metaphors.) But it also means to find terms through proposals/offers that are agreeable to one or more parties, in order to strike a bargain, make a deal or create a contract. You need to negotiate this tricky area about yourself WITH HIM. So, my advice isn't to stop seeing him. If you DO take a little time to postpone a date... make sure you suggest a specific alternative. That way he knows you're just taking a little breather. IF he truly cares about you, he'll accept and understand. It means, signifies absolutely nothing in the long run... about the relationship; it's just what you need to do for YOU, right now. Till the butterflies calm down.

So, that's it for you AND B. Now, for Hops by herself... and some more speculative stuff.

I'm having to grudgingly accept that there is more than "one me"... not as in multiple personalities, but each "me" deals with different things. The physical me is still trying to improve habits to stay healthy and feel better. The emotional me - well, she's a right sensitive thing; delicate even; prone to the vapors even! Go figure. The sexual me... manifests in a lot of different ways - intellectually, physically and emotionally. And she's a hot mess, given my history. "Conflicted" is the kindest adjective I could use. I can't let her make decisions, any more than I can the poor sensitive emotional basketcase. But they ALL need to be consulted in decision-making. That may not happen fast enough for a spontaneous situation, and someone waiting on me to say yes or no.

And when I need to process, and the situation demands a "right now" decision... the best thing for me to do is say I need to think it over. Buy myself some time. Consult with the "muses" and see if I can sort out from the jumble, just what is really my issue with "yes" or "no" here. See where I'm too hard (or judgemental) on myself... where there are real differences that might could be negotiated into a mutually acceptable "step" in whatever direction it is, I think that OVERALL I want to go.

The thing about seeing relationships as a transaction? Too often, knowing this about some men - I get all hung up in that concept. Bent out of shape. So, negotiation is also a transaction, but it's where you're refining definitions, boundaries, what you each want, etc... acting as your own advocate. Not all men do this... and the ones that do, do so in different degrees. So, maybe it's better to think in terms of expectations - yours first, then what you THINK his are, and ask him. Again. Ya gotta be able to FEEL it's OK to talk to him about things like this. It's a basic pre-requisite, IMO.

It's perfectly OK to feel how you felt. You didn't like it. He needs to know that in a non-blaming way. Perhaps he'll modify this in the future. But if he is a typical "engineer-type"... he NEEDS this feedback from you in order to do so. He wouldn't necessarily be able to "read" your reactions and come to a correct understanding based on emotional intelligence or mind-reading.

So, take a "Hops Date" or weekend... just for you. I don't think he's going anywhere, but you can make it clear you don't WANT him to, by suggesting a different date to get together.

[Twoapenny]

You will know what to do, Hops, you're a wise owl, you listen to yourself, you take time to think and ponder and observe and it will all serve you well - I just know how it feels when someone or something knocks you off course a bit and it takes a bit of time to get back on the path - having people to help you refocus helps (as I know when you all do it for me) xx

[Hopalong]

I'm a Hoover stuck on high...vacuuming up every grain.

(Meanwhile, this was the Dear Prudence column today on SLATE. Must be a conspiracy...)

Dear Prudence,
I have more than once had sex, or gone further than I was really comfortable going with men, for the sake of preserving their feelings, or because I felt I had already taken things too far to back out. Almost all of my female friends have a similar story. How do I convince myself that I don’t need to have sex with someone to protect their feelings? And how do I find the words to politely end a sexual encounter after I become uncomfortable?
—Opting Out

Unlearning the message that you are responsible, as a woman, for making a man feel always comfortable is the work of a lifetime! The language itself is fairly simple and straightforward. There are dozens of ways to politely stop a sexual encounter: “Thanks for a nice evening, but I’m not feeling a connection, so I’m going to go home”; “I’m not comfortable with this anymore; let’s stop”; “I’m not coming in, good night.” The bigger problem, which you’ve already identified, is overriding the voice in your brain that says Oh my God, I couldn’t possibly say that, even if it were true. He’d be so offended, and I’d hurt his pride, and what if he tried to point out that I seemed to be having a good time earlier? I don’t want to get into an argument over this; it’d be easier just to go along for now and then leave as soon as it’s over.

Think of it this way. You sound like a sensitive and empathetic person—you would presumably not want to have sex with a man who actually felt uncomfortable and disinterested in sleeping with you, who was simply going along with you because he was anxious about hurting your feelings. If you found out that a man you were about to sleep with felt this way, you would stop immediately, because you would be wholly uninterested in having sex with a partner who was not genuinely enthusiastic. You would not want him to put on a good show, grit his teeth, and get through it. So treat yourself with the same kindness and generosity. I hope you find partners who cheerfully and graciously accept “Hey, this isn’t working for me anymore—let’s stop” as a normal thing to hear on a date. I hope you’re able to give yourself permission to stop a sexual encounter without feeling like you need to apologize or that you’re trying to break a lease before your rental agreement is up. Going on a date, flirting with someone, kissing someone, testing your chemistry—these aren’t links in a chain of events that leads to an irreversible “We have to have sex now” contract that you’re obligated to uphold against your own wishes, inclinations, and desires.

[sKePTiKal]

Serendipity!

Prudence explained that way better than I tried to. I wonder if we ALL need a thread to just explore this whole side of our lives? So we don't keep trying to sort things out all over the place? Sort of an "Amazon's Powder Room" conversation...

[lighter]

Hear!  Hear!

Prudence....


hear, hear.

[Hopalong]

I got no objections to anybody discussing "Heist" issues on this thread, for sure! I learn from it all and can always revert to talking about my specific relationship issues any time I want... y'all are welcome.

B. called tonight and we had a good talk so I'm feeling a bit better. He talked a lot about what I already knew. He WANTS TO ALREADY BE THERE. Sharing not just a bed but life and daily everything, because (my words) what he's feeling is a horrid cosmic loneliness. I get it. He was married for 46 years and being alone is freaking him out. (Which does not make it my problem to solve, as Lighter says. And, as L. says, I am not obligated to help him shortcut his suffering.)

But overall it was a good talk. He's made clear he wants not just me but the whole enchilada. (Not a proposal but he's imagining our lives shared FT. And I already told him what my goal is --family not girlfriend if we go there--so we'll cross that bridge down the road. Too early now.)

He told me it wasn't just that he was disappointed about not getting sex, but he'd been feeling frustrated during the evening because I'd talked a lot about various friends and other things, and not about our relationship and focusing on us, which is what he'd wanted. I am so glad I've learned this thing about not expecting someone else to read your mind or make you comfortable (like Prudie said). Just like that other night, when he got negative, and the next day had a big explanation about how he needed more touch and closeness. In both situations, the issue was the same. He was annoyed that I didn't give what he wanted (when he hadn't asked for it).

That time, I (being old and all) knew what I needed to tell him, which was: It's always good to ask for what you want, as long as you release the outcome. He goes huh? I said, when you're feeling the need for more touch or closeness, it's fine to speak: Would you give me a hug? (And know that sometimes you may not get what you ask for. But never expect another to read your mind.)

Last night, it was the same theme. So on the phone I told him, My response would be, Did you know that at any time during dinner, you could take my hand and say, "I'd like to talk about us. I've been feeling...etc." And he got it. That was the theme. He said he'd been telling himself that I didn't care as much as he did because I was talking about friends and not "us." And I responded that if he wanted to talk about us he could have said so. And I would have been happy to.

It was a good talk in that we communicated pretty well, and the theme became clear. He said he thinks that bears repeating. (Boy, I imagine it'd have to be repeated for years...took me decades of therapy and relationship books to understand that.) He's wanting me to know and anticipate and mind-read and I'm refusing/unable to do that, and that's healthier. Doesn't mean it'll work out long term but I do feel a lot more clear about knowing what I know is wise and not apologizing for it, even if he might eventually decide he can't hang in. (I have plenty I can learn from him as well.)

I also talked to him about exactly how I felt (over-ridden and him being large and seeming angry) in the car necking session. He said somberly, it is very good we're talking. I mentioned that this is a happy but huge adjustment for me, and that remaining centered in myself and my own sense of timing is important for me. I also told him, if someone I'm with who is fighting that cosmic void feeling (how much time do we have left, I want a shared life NOW) and thus has much more time urgency, and simply can't bear the frustration of my pace...I know that person can decide to go and find someone who is faster or more ready than I am. And I am at peace with that.

All in all, encouraging enough that we're still moving forward. Getting more specific about a weekend away (two rooms) and he also has a week's timeshare-ish thing at Hilton Head for another getaway should the first one go well and things progress.

I don't know if I'd have the courage not to bolt if it weren't for you guys. I mean that.

THANK YOU for abiding these ups and downs and minutiae with me. Do you know how wise and sane you are?

Gratefully,
Hops

[Hopalong]

PS -- and I sent the Prudie column to B!

 

[sKePTiKal]

Oh GOOD Hops!!

You CAN talk this stuff out. Very very good. He's going to bring what Mike & I called, his own "baggage" about behavior in relationships... things he fears, bad habits, etc. Just like you have yours. Having a process for getting to an understanding about where and how touchy each other's "sore places" are... and what works to soothe them... is a healthy way to go about this.

Sometimes, when Mike would resort to various defense mechanisms, I'd remind him he was confusing me with some "other" wife. Or when he was deliberately treading into a place I'd put a boundary... I'd call him by Ex#2's name. This was our "code" that we could use anywhere any time, to communicate about a misunderstanding or miscommunication. Usually, that was all that was needed to resolve the problem & move on. Once in a while, it was big enough to talk about privately later.

So excellent that you've quickly gotten your balance back to center. I know that took years of practice, but I bow to you.... sensei. LOL.

I'm intrigued that his way of dealing with the acute pain of loneliness, is to move forward with all due speed to another relationship. Lots to ponder there, for me, since I still feel "involved" in a relationship with Mike - emotionally. It's him specifically I long for and there can be no substitute or replacement or new connection. Maybe that's just my self-limitation; a mental construct built around a bunch of complex feelings that I'm not ready to address directly.

Then, there is the experience of total freedom that balances the lonely times. No new guy to "housebreak" -- or train to understand my idiosyncrasies, and the long sagas by way of explanation about why I am, what I am. I do think, that I will eventually get involved in another relationship and the "definition" of what kind of relationship it is, is going to get thrown to the wind. No expectations or strings attached. That might a tad unusual for the traditional "guy's guy" I think I'm leaning toward to deal with.

HUH. More stuff to think about over the dreary winter months.

[Hopalong]

Thanks, hon. I hear you about how striking his hurry is. I find it startling too. I do hear a lot that widowers can remarry at a blistering pace that often bewilders their children. Not sure completely why that is but it seems it's so.

My T said the suicide rate for men in their 70s is very high. (Or maybe he said widowed men.) Whereas most widows get through it and forge meaningful new lives (often because of their capacity for friendship and community building), for men of his generation it's way harder. Raised macho with a taciturn father, served in Air Force, worked in business including government contracts, etc. -- not a warm, fuzzy, learn about feelings kind of life. Pretty competitive, I think.

And though there were serious problems with his wife (anorexia + alcoholism) he clearly loved her and she must have been devoted (even apart from gourmet cooking!). He just seems completely lost without a woman in his life. She must've been his anchor in ways he didn't even consciously recognize, so now he's spinning.

I feel compassion for his state of mind and at the same time, a little wary about how much heavy lifting there'll be because he's had so very little relationship experience. I'm interested in being a supportive and loving companion to someone but not eager to be a FT soother. Still, he's been receptive, willing to talk it all through. We both acknowledged during that call yesterday how much hard work it is. I'm glad we have, because there's no glossing over it. As long as respect and communication stay intact, we might go the distance. But Hops dunno....

Jury will be out for a long time and the judge needs a nap. But not without saying, I believe you'll wind up with a new partner too. It's so good that you respect the grieving/healing process and aren't forcing yourself to take a new shape before you're ready.

Maybe the mountain place is in itself in some mysterious way, the new shape you're taking.

Hugs
Hops

[Hopalong]

Huh.
When we talked today, he mentioned that my observation about him seeming/feeling "angry" was partly true. Mostly disappointment at not getting more time with me (when I declined to invite him in) but there was some anger in it too.

All this in a gentle tone, after saying "Truthfully, it'd be hard for anyone to stay angry at you" or some such flattery.

I didn't probe because it's exhausting to talk heavy stuff all the time. But something I would love some feedback here about is...that. Anger? ANGER?

To me the fact that he felt it, even some, is quite concerning. I'll be spending time with him tomorrow and hope I know how to ask him more about this. I've seen no signs of "temper" (or that was the first) ... but I am allergic to anger, especially when it seems entitled or unjustified or whatever.

If he can feel anger because of a transient disappointment after a short period of dating...does that say something really bad about what a LTR (long term relationship) could turn into?

What do y'all think? I am absolutely unwilling to live with unchecked or unexamined anger. So, how do I ask him to examine this? Is it even worth it to take on a former CEO-type (not exactly the CEO but a similar level of achievement) who doesn't already know that's off?

His other sin today. He mentioned his "girl assistant." I asked how old she is. Fifty. Sighhhh....
Still enjoying the possibilities, but wondering if he and I are from different solar systems.

xo
Hops

[sKePTiKal]

Hopsy. Been a good Amazons weekend here. Real life, in person friends. Helping each other. Rolling with changes, because of age.

Thank you, for the "vision" of what could be. I can trust that, even if I know what the probability is. LOL. A girl can still dream. 

Essentially, y'all need to talk essentials. The anger may NOT be essential; it might be ephemeral - ego-based. He MIGHT could admit to that. You'll only know if you talk it through.

Breathe kiddo. Don't put yourself - or B - through a microscope, OK? Generalizations are exactly that, and may not apply in any specific circumstance. Trust yourself - and blow off our worries & concerns if you feel SURE. There shouldn't be any doubt, if you're sure.

If there's some doubt, just take it step by step and discern and JUDGE according to what you know you want - ultimately. In this case, go slowly and don't be afraid to slow things down according to your needs.

[I have some issues with someone rushing to a relationship to avoid "loneliness" on his part... without a real solid connection and mutual trust. And from what you're saying, I'm seeing that connection not being real solid yet. Maybe it will be in a bit. But if I were you, I would dig in my heels and refuse to be rushed. God knows, guys think I'm "difficult".]

[Hopalong]

I hear you, Amber, and thank you.

"Difficult" = "I don't want you to be the way you are, I want you to be the way I want you to be..."

Gonna take a lot of maturity all around (for you and your future someone, ditto me and B or anyone else).

I think the flip side of recognizing I REALLY AM on my own side, is facing (again) the equal possibility that a solitary and uncertain old age still looms. But who knows? If I wind up choosing not to move forward with B because I sense both a prod at my back and possibly a gilded cage ... I might thank the universe for an experience that has made me stronger and more rooted in my own life.

Or, if he surprises me with insight and eagerness to understand and challenge himself (not just wait for me to do all that work) ... then going forward could be joyous.

Sloooow joy. That's what I'd look forward to.

Happy everything,
Hops