Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board
Relationship/s
sKePTiKal:
--- Quote ---He still doesn't get the difference between an I-message and a You-message (I know, Amber, this is probably seeing things through the psychobabble filter). He likes to say: I feel that YOU... and merrily goes about analysing me, and never analyses himself.
--- End quote ---
If so, it's important psychobabble Hops. Hol got back Sunday. Steve went to work; John's off on the next leg of his journey... and so she's already started prescribing the things I MUST do without understanding that I don't tell HER "you need to do that" without expecting her to resist or do it when she wants to. Of her own volition, she's ordered a book that includes enmeshment, co-dependence, etc. She's even micro-analyzing what I've shared with her about Buck and now "worrying" that I'm falling into the same traps as previous relationships. SIGH. I've told her I don't need a minder, a trainer, or a mom. It's not sinking in. There is merit in her suggestions, but I still have a strong reflex to resist being TOLD to do anything. (kinda a co-dependence over reaction, I think)
The other thing I thought of, is maybe you can explain to M - that "no" isn't a once & for all time "no". It's just "no, not now". Maybe that would stop his spin up into anxiety in it's tracks. Also, maybe discuss with your T... when it's helpful, to put aside your "no" and please him in that instance... and when you need to say "no" because it's in your best interests; it's protective of you. Both participants in a relationship need to sometimes give up our "I don't really want to, feel comfortable, whatever doing that even though I can see it's important to you". But hear me - that HAS to be a 2 way street for it to work. (Without score keeping)
I'm struggling in the dark right along with ya Hops. The message Hol keeps sending is there's something wrong with the way I am and she knows exactly how to make me better - and doesn't seem to acknowledge that that may not BE ME. Buck, thankfully, isn't making any noises like that at all. He seems to get a real enjoyment out of my autonomy and watching me do things in my fashion. She's kinda expanding what she sees about me, in recent statements teasing me about being "upper management" around here. LOL. There is hope; just have to work through it.
Hopalong:
(((((((Amber)))) Responded about Hol over on Farm Life. Meanwhile, I'm grateful you brought up my struggle with M not accepting a NO. (Not before an endless campaign of ignoring it and/or verbally pounding at me over and over about it, until the NO becomes overwhelming.)
I think in many smaller matters I have intentionally turned my No into a Why Not or Yes. Yes, I'd like to please him. He turns almost every effort I make to give to him into his issue of no no no, I am the one who provides, serves, is generous and sacrificial. I had to talk to him about receiving...how if he deflects every gesture I try to make to express love and gratitude to him, that hurt. He worked on it. Doing the surprise birthday dinner for him was a big one. But even there, he turned to me and said, I'd be happy to pay for this...one look and he gave it up, but his compulsion was still there to take away that opportunity from me. HE is the Giver, the Big Person, the Magnanimous Papa figure. It's not all ego, a lot of it is how he was raised.
Recently, I took my biggest No, contemplated loving him and wanting to bring him happiness, and flipped it into a profound Yes. He wound up kind of letting loose of my gift in a way that puzzled me, but it was still a happy thing to do and share.
On the other hand, I think my boundaries are too rigid in some ways. My T has said to me several times that she feels I am not over-reacting to his pressure. But she only hears my narrative, not his.
I identified for M recently that the pattern I worry most about is that although I delight in him as a companion (we are crazily compatible talking, dining, traveling, bantering, exploring, laughing, socializing with others) ... where I have the most trouble is when I believe he is crossing personal boundaries into my personal autonomy. I may be over-threatened by these in others' eyes, but here they are:
--My Family. He trespassed into my relationship with my D by sending her a message behind my back about my feelings, and then by talking about "his plan" to contact and help her, that he would "let me know" when he has decided "what he intends to do." I was in fury until he grasped that he is not to do ANYTHING in her direction unless he explicitly ASKS ME about it first. She is my child, not his. For now, we've dropped that discussion. He was fantasizing a paternal relationship with her, "the daughter I never had" that was both kind and clueless (her purpose in the world is not to make him feel more saintly). He understands nothing at all about her mental illness, my loss and how it feels and kept poking at it, bringing it up over and over and over because it made HIM so sad--and thus making me re-experience an anguishing loss I'd grieved as much as I could without dying. (Repetition, repetition....). He FINALLY realized how grave this was for me, and dropped it. Though there've been a few very subtle gestures about her lately. (I think he resents me having drawn such a firm boundary there.)
--My Health. He directly ignored an explicit request my friend conveyed (nicely) for me when I was in the ER, that I did not want him to come back yet into the area where I was being treated. He told my friend, "Oh she's confused. I have to be there, I'll 'take the heat':... ) and persuaded her to let him take over. When I asked later, did she convey my request that you NOT come back? He said yes. I asked, so why did you? He said, "My feelings compelled me to." So the wishes of the stressed and overwhelmed patient, me, were irrelevant because his feelings were strong. It was NOT comforting having him in the cubicle; it added to my stress while I was in the middle of a stroke and focusing on responding to the providers. The next day I was (and remain) so grateful to have him there and very moved by his overall support (though he kept interrupting my conversation with my doctors). But the night before, he did not care about my privacy, my vulnerability, my humiliation (I was having medication not only injected but stuffed up my ass and was NOT ready to share that moment with a boyfriend I hadn't been intimate with) or my CHOICE. He found his choice romantic. I found it disrespectful and, honestly, selfish. (So I hesitate to trust him with health issues. A recent example, his insistent drama about the monitor, magnifying HIS sense of crisis into a routine appointment I was managing calmlly. Another: The other night I shared something about how ADD affects my time management and he responded dismissively, "Oh, I don't think you have ADD. You may have gotten some diagnosis, but I don't perceive it." And "Somebody wanted to put one of my sons on ADD meds!" I don't even take Rx. I was 60 when diagnosed, and immensely relieved by it. But what got to me was his entitlement to dismiss it and attitude of superiority about his knowledge. So that's another health thing I don't feel safe sharing about.)
--My Friendships. I had a tiff with a friend, coincidentally also a professor, and shared it with him because it was sad. It was just a friend story. He said, Oh I'll take care of this because as a professor I can reach out to her with some invitation because we're technically colleagues. I didn't want him to do this. I wasn't looking for him to take over and issue some invitation. I am capable of resolving or making decisions around my personal friendships myself, and didn't need or want his involvement, which would've made the whole delicate dialogue with her much more difficult. (So I regretted confiding in him about something I'd ordinarily love to share with a partner. By the way, she and I are okay again.) After the bday party he made a big deal of writing my friends to thank them for coming (which was very nice, and appropriate) and at the same time declare to them that he was extremely grateful and wanted to thank them for being good friends for me (which struck them as odd). They've been my personal friends for decades, barely know him, and frankly don't need my boyfriend to praise them for caring about me. It's...paternalistic. Well meant, but still.
--My Time. When I periodically need to retreat to recharge (as an "introverted extrovert") he emails, calls, sends intense messages about how he needs to drop off food gifts even after I politely decline ("But it's fresh! You don't even have to answer the door!") etc, etc. It ensures that I keep thinking about him, I'm guessing. I'm probably thinking about him anyway, but don't need my sanctuary time structured around his desperation to not sense the umbilical cord stretch. (So now, thanks to Tupp, I have to spell out--radio silence.)
--My History. I shared with him in France the story of a very painful hurt I'd experienced with my second husband. (Which I'd grieved, recovered from, and basically put away...I rarely think of him.) M brought it up about TEN TIMES since because it made HIM so sad. I finally explained that I appreciated how compassionate he was about that experience, but that it was many many years ago, that I had healed from it and moved on, and that I'd really appreciate it, now that he understood it, if he would not bring it up again. "I promise. I'll never mention it again," says M, as he often does. He brought it up again yesterday. (This is what I mean about repeat, repeat, repeat.) He had a pretext. Doesn't matter. It makes me not trust his "I promise." He is appalled, "You've said you don't TRUST me! My intentions are always pure and good! Because I love you so DEEPLY.") Oy.
--My Body. In the most vulnerable of situations, he persisted in a way of touching that was uncomfortable and distressing to me. I said No over and over and he ignored it. Shhhhh! Shhhhh! I left and burst into tears when I got home. I had and have much compassion for why it's an emergency to him and in some degree, how his own anxiety and goal focus overwhelm him. But despite compassion, I can't abandon my own self, my own body, to his agenda without knowing that if I say Yes, or No, in the moment I will be heard. (Not after he's repeated and repeated whatever he wants....over my objections.) He apologized profusely and sincerely by email, but also came back when I tried to talk about it in person. "I wept too" and more, which pretty much shut me down. The other day I told him I didn't feel heard and that experience was still unresolved for me. He said he wanted to listen and we should take time to sit down and he would. I'm doubtful but hopeful. For me, it's a traumatic memory, if that word isn't too extreme. So all that's on hold and I'm reluctant to re-engage at that level. Not without help.
Looking for some good news? Talking with my T, I asked her to recommend couples counselors to interview. She said it wasn't if we needed it, but when, and it's time, and suggested names. Happily, he's agreed and is also asking his T for suggestions. We'll see one from each list to find one we both like, etc. I had told him recently, when he asked again about marriage (repeat repeat) that I honestly now have doubt I didn't have before. So he's taking it very seriously. That's good. A relief.
He's never wavered about how much he loves me and wants me as his lifetime companion and no one else will do and I'm the love of his life. I believe his feelings are real; it's only some behaviors that get to me. He says if I know his intention is good (I do) that nothing else should matter (I don't agree, and told him even when there is real love, sometimes relationships still don't work.) I'm wavering now, but I do still love him, and I'll be very sad if it doesn't work out. However, I am also clear that my life would continue. It would be a lot harder, and having a stroke I'd be helpless and without a direct advocate (my friends are great but not THAT available), and I won't pretend that security isn't one of my motivations. I'll be 70 this spring. Having him to love and live with and care for going forward I believe would be a happier life for me than continuing alone. Winter is coming, literally and metaphorically.
And....for most of the hours we've been together, he's been a delightful companion. I believe we will both do our sincere best in the counseling, and that the hope lies there. Maybe all the baggage two people this age are dragging is just a little complicated. And at heart, he is an ethical person, and has kind intentions. We're also just beginning to take a look at how some things I find smothering are actually cultural differences, as CB referenced...in how he shows love. That's helpful. Dunno if it'll save us but it reduces my worry, to see some of his behavior in a less personal context.
Meanwhile, we're off to California later next month to "meet the kids" and I'm truly looking forward to it.
Thanks for listening to all that, all-a y'all.
love
Hops
Twoapenny:
Aw, Hopsie, it is very difficult. All the things you mention would drive me nuts so I don't think you're over reacting. Meltdowns over leaving the tube off the toothpaste are over-reactions, in my opinion, but the things you mention are all very valid and I understand why they've made you feel the way they do. Equally, I can understand, oh so much, not wanting to spend your future years alone on a low income, particularly after the recent health scare - having our own mortality shoved in our faces is frightening and reminds us we're getting older.
I think something that is difficult when dating older men (maybe you need a toyboy? lol) is that the 'me Tarzan, you Jane' thing has been drummed into them from such a young age and it's possibly quite alien to him to have a female companion that doesn't need him to take charge and organise everything at the drop of a hat.
I guess the good thing is that you're both willing to work on it and, as you say, the good times are amazingly good. I guess that time is going to pass, whatever you do now, and if it did sadly not work out with M, at least you'd know you'd both given it your best shot. I think I'd be inclined to keep working on things all the time the good stuff outweighed the bad stuff, as it seems to at present. I hope the couples thing helps; as you say, your current T's only hear your side of the story (respectively) so it will be interesting to hear what a therapist has to say about both of your perceptions of the same event and might help you find a middle ground. I am keeping fingers crossed it goes well :) You deserve to be happy xx xx
Hopalong:
Thank you, ((((Tupp)))). Your take on how I feel is comforting and validating. Professors can be VERY persuasive, until they encounter the Stubborn Student! You're right, my concerns are legitimate. But so are his. I'm very hopeful the couple-counseling will help. He is motivated to the moon not to lose me, and I'm not far behind him. So given that he's brilliant and motivated, maybe it'll be a remarkable learning curve. My smarts are different but my love for him is real (plus that sketchy other motivation you are so forgiving about). I dunno the outcome, but I'll ask the universe for what I'd like, and give it my all.
I also agree with you that there'd be no point in bailing right now, just because it's getting hard. Relationships take Work. And either way--either for the reward of having worked so hard to create a happy future marriage that it's even more satisfying, or of having worked so hard that even in grieving an ended relationship, we have the knowledge that we both tried our very best. Until I can say that authentically, having also confronted my own dysfunctions, I am not ready to pull the plug.
Like you, I don't know what I would have done without this forum. And I have learned more than I can express from every voice hear.
I am sooooo grateful for the support.
love
Hops
Twoapenny:
--- Quote from: Hopalong on September 24, 2019, 02:04:15 PM ---Thank you, ((((Tupp)))). Your take on how I feel is comforting and validating. Professors can be VERY persuasive, until they encounter the Stubborn Student! You're right, my concerns are legitimate. But so are his. I'm very hopeful the couple-counseling will help. He is motivated to the moon not to lose me, and I'm not far behind him. So given that he's brilliant and motivated, maybe it'll be a remarkable learning curve. My smarts are different but my love for him is real (plus that sketchy other motivation you are so forgiving about). I dunno the outcome, but I'll ask the universe for what I'd like, and give it my all.
I also agree with you that there'd be no point in bailing right now, just because it's getting hard. Relationships take Work. And either way--either for the reward of having worked so hard to create a happy future marriage that it's even more satisfying, or of having worked so hard that even in grieving an ended relationship, we have the knowledge that we both tried our very best. Until I can say that authentically, having also confronted my own dysfunctions, I am not ready to pull the plug.
Like you, I don't know what I would have done without this forum. And I have learned more than I can express from every voice hear.
I am sooooo grateful for the support.
love
Hops
--- End quote ---
I think the motivation to try is the important thing, Hops, that part is so important, particularly as you're both so willing. And it's so realistic as well. Far more people would avoid unhappy marriages if they had these open, frank discussions beforehand instead of going down the Hollywood 'love will conquer all' pathway.
I've probably told this story before, but I remember an Asian friend years ago explaining the arranged marriage scenario to me. It sounded so sensible. An introduction was suggested, usually by friends or family, and a phone conversation took place. And during that phone conversation they'd have a really frank, open discussion - do you want children? private or state school? will you give up work after having children? do you cook? Will your mother live with us? And so on. Very factual, very frank, and all the sorts of topics that couples end up rowing about and falling out over. It sounded so sensible to me, it just weeded out unsuitables straight away. When she did meet someone (randomly, it wasn't arranged) her Dad insisted on seeing his bank statements. And most people would think that so rude but I thought, do you know what, he wants to make sure his girl is with a good un and he's not just taking his word for it. Imagine the difference if everyone approached marriage in such a calm and collected way?
All a bit off kilter, but I'm just trying to say I think being really frank and open is a good thing, and I think it makes sense to work on things now instead of rushing off to get married and then realising it was a mistake. I am still hopefull things will work out :) xx
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