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Hopalong:
Thanks, Lighter. I think you hit on a nuance. I do accept M as a human being, and only struggle with some of his behaviors. He's both so sensitive and so insecure that he doesn't have the psychological strength to have his behavior challenged. He's quite defensive, always with genuine feelings of being deeply wounded or "stung" when I imply that some of what he does creates a trust challenge for me.

Amber, hon, your thinking is relevant to me. I don't have to agree with or echo your perspective, of course. But I always value and appreciate it. You can offer whatever you want to, and not worry about "protecting" me in regard to me drawing my own conclusions or trusting my own decisions. As we all do, I take in everything because all our intentions here to help are so deeply evident. But naturally, I sift everything for what works and echoes, and whatever doesn't, drifts in and on. (Thank god nobody takes my voluminous opinions and advice as de riguer!) Just want you to know your thinking is valuable to me, whenever you're inspired to share it. (But no pressure to do so if you ain't inspired to.)

Gratefully,
Hops

lighter:
Hops:

I'm just going to write down what comes up around you and M right now.  Take what makes sense, and forget the rest.

I think M believes whatever is good for him, is good for you... and the relationship.  It's a POV, and you're challenging it. He's shocked, bc that's not been his experience up to this point.   That's not right or wrong, it's just how he's feeling, kwim?

He likely does have the best of intentions for you, your happiness, and future with him, and I think you feel that too? 

I also think you're strength, autonomy, and personal POV is as exciting as it is scary for him.  That word "challenge" keeps coming up for me here.  You're challenging some of his world view, and how he operates in it with a partner.

I think he has some fear, and that's normal.  It's very harmful, in this case, to his ability to hear you and use reason.

He's going to have to find a way to calm himself down, and focus.  He's up against old default pathways here, so I hope some breathing exercises are included in T.... he needs to take his biology back, and shift back into adult/creative/problem solving mode, IMO.


I'm afraid you're the professor in these matters, and he's the student.  That's not going to add to M's comfort either, IME. 

Understanding that this is about you and M working together to sort things out.... might help M calm down.

You want to know what M really needs, and M needs to be able to ask what you really need, and be responsive to them.  It goes both ways. 

I really look forward to M understanding that he's loved, and whole, and accepted, even when you "challenge" him. I really want to read posts where he's secure enough to be upset, then bounce back with admiration for your pluck.  He chose a strong woman.  Once he feels more secure, I think he'll have an easier time finding his admiration.

The truth is, most couples who experience crisis, and do this difficult work to overcome it, come out incredibly strong.  I think you can say that, up front, to M.   Working through these housekeeping matters is intended to bring more joy and stability for you both. That's an amazing,  intelligent aspiration, IMO.

I hope M can learn to make that shift into observer mode, and get curious about what you want and need.  That defensive stance is not working for either of you, and you don't intend offense.  You're Hops!  He should learn that, and internalize it.  The sooner the better.

In all your posts I feel positive connection, and his ability to do this work. 

That M shifts into fight or flight mode, and can't get out,  explains why he's not able to understand, listen, or problem solve.  He's smart enough, he just needs help learning how to unhook those darned alarm bells so he can hear, help make a plan, and follow through. 

And that's how I feel about that.

Lighter

Hopalong:
Lighter, THANK YOU.

This is a deeply perceptive, insightful and (hopefully) empowering post. I really appreciate the deep thought and the effort of it, too.

You articulate a very nuanced, compassionate and profound view-from-a-distance. That distance has actually enabled you to see what we're trying, as well as what we're up against, so clearly. Much more clearly than I have been able to, in fact. You also wisely reminded me to see the truth I'm trying to tell as ultimately good for both M and me. As his will be for me, regardless, because I care intensely about reality over delusion to guide my decision about a life with him.

I have a lot of hope pinned on whichever couples counselor we choose. I loved your phrase, "he needs to take back his biology." I'm not a teacher for that, but perhaps his own T could be, if M sees it and brings it up to him.

M seems to have a good deal of receptivity for what his own T observes. So I'm hopeful.

It's true it would be a massive relief to be heard somewhere that might make a difference. I'm not saying a counselor is going to pat me on the head and castigate M. I don't need or want either of those to happen. But I do yearn for a room in which M's runaway-talk-train can't overwhelm me, and where a neutral observer can guide us both in listening deeply to each other. Or, more likely, to reflect back to us when and what we have not heard well. And help us pace through the whole thing without panic -- either his or mine.

What you said about POV, and how it's not something to judge but just see as what impact my challenges to it are having...was incredibly helpful.

Above all, I think your analysis carries great compassion for M. And I appreciate that a lot. When I feel threatened or devoured or overwhelmed by the bigness of his emotions and nonstop expression of them...I can lose my internal commitment to compassion.

Basically, you've reminded me to remember my strength. I'm trying. I think the stroke, a cardiac monitor stuck on my chest, reading a recent detailed test result about my abnormal heart rhythms, and the actual physical sensations I feel in my chest when under big emotional stress...it's really my health that I'm trying to protect.

My personal challenge is to also calm down, and try to hold my balance and a calmer center when I'm in his company. It's a big challenge. But to continue toward the good stuff prevailing, I have to try to meet it.

Thanks again.

Gratefully,
Hops

lighter:
Hops:

I believe you're the professor when it comes to exploring one's inner world, and shifting into observer mode. You know more about things being OK, even when they aren't OK, or don't seem OK.
 I call it the
"hold....
hold....
hold....." pattern of sitting with difficult feelings.  Some of life is learning how to DO that, and I was just talking to my T about it.  That skill, and it's usefulness.

If we can sit, and not go chattering on or DOING DOING DOING to escape difficult feelings.  Just waiting when we're in distress.  Not following old pathways, but turning attention inward to see what's there, what comes up.  M hasn't learned how to SEE his actions, thoughts, and feelings without judgment and panic.... yet. He hasn't learned to shift into your POV either.

 You have.  You do it all the time here, for him. 

I remember reading posts of yours, years ago, about just sitting with our difficult feelings.  Was that really 10 or so years ago?  More maybe?  And it took me this long to follow that thread to a place I could understand.

 You're up ahead, now, for M.  Shining a light if he'll see it.  Helping him learn to sit with his discomfort, for it has a message, and will not kill him, though his alarm bells warn they will.  This is the edge of epiphany for this lovely smart man.  I don't think he understands temporary upheaval is just temporary.   

You do. 

I wish he could see your intention to build safe happy space for the both of you.  I wish he could imagine you, as companion, when you feel comfort enough to love without fear or reservation.
 To love him without doubt.   

It's not an easy concept for a child, or panicked person to understand.... you flailing away, bc you require more distance in order to be OK with closeness and intimacy with M.   
Lord. 
That's hurtful to a person who can't stand space.  He's creating a need for more and more space with hiseifforts to close the distance.  ::shaking head::  And he can't SEE how that's going to go. You can. So YES... you're the one with more knowledge in these matters, and we'll see how the professor handles a woman of depth and unfamiliar substance.   

I guess M's T sessions will teach him the art of horse whispering.... not to BECOME a new person, or lose himself, but to shift into a new way of BEING inside himself.  Spending time in a horse corral is something kids do in Wilderness Camp.  They learn how to work together with an intense focus to gain a horse's trust, and cooperation.  They have to see things through the horse's POV, and I guess I just said you're the horse there, so forgive me, but that's my short version of that.

I agree, a good T will help you. 
Help M lean into change, and embrace it. 
Not fear it. 

Help M "hear" you, Yes.
The fear has to go for him to Do that, IME.


No one would ever think you'd want M castigated in a T session, and it's interesting you write that out, bc... you feel some discomfort around how your motives will be interpreted?  What was that about, Hops? 

And I'm sending you healing waves of pink light ((Hops)).  I wish I could send the spirits of nuns and nurses from Nonnatus House on Call The Midwife.  To hold our hands, and see this monitor business through.  To shield, and comfort you.  To lend their filters when you're overwhelmed and feeling devoured.

More deep breathing, for all of us,  is a good thing. That's where the calm is, IME.

Lighter

Hopalong:
Thanks, Lighter.

I am hoping but do not know whether I'm strong enough to serve as a model of calm, and sitting with difficult feelings, for M. I have trouble sitting with my own, even though I know it's important. Given my health scares and other worries (including whether I need to go back to work to rebuild savings), I am not a huge reservoir of inner calm at the moment.

In that way, M and I are alike. We're both subject to anxiety. I think his is more intense because his career has required (and permitted) so much attention and focus that he doesn't have the energy left to approach self-insight with the same level of commitment.

My difficulty in being in relationship to M, as it was with my Nmother, is that it's a literally nonstop job, to hold my calm when the verbal bulldozer's running at top speed, the bull is rampaging repetitively around the china shop (me being, unfortunately, the china at times), and the sheer forcefulness of his personality and verbal torrents (however positive the mantras he repeats repeats repeats)...

just
freaking
wear
me
out

I'll try. I really want things to work out.

He allows no silence. He never, ever stops pushing for what he wants. He repeats and repeats and repeats what he wants as though I didn't comprehend it the first 20 times he said it.

Instead of arguing with him, I find myself lately just going quiet. He notices. After talking about himself for 10-15 minutes straight when I first see him, he'll notice I'm not as responsive (umm-hmm, oh my golly, that must've been this or that, wow, etc.) as I used to be. And then he'll manage, "How was your day?" Once I get out what I did, what went well or didn't, then he immediately begins to tell me how to fix what didn't. He does respond fairly well to the direct statement, I don't need you to fix it, I just wanted to talk about it. So that's progress.

We'll see. I really do think your understanding of him and what he needs is huge. Just huge. And I appreciate it tremendously.

hugs
Hops

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