Author Topic: Relationship/s  (Read 551502 times)

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship
« Reply #555 on: September 08, 2020, 08:44:38 PM »
Had another Zoomyak with new friend this afternoon and it was very enjoyable. We're both verbose and really enjoy lively/intense conversation. He's firmly in friend-zone in my head and I think that's mutual, so it's comfortably low-pressure entertainment/company. We alternate booking Zoom, and he mentioned "8-10 days". I think that's a good indicator of how although our enjoyment is mutual, neither of us is fantasizing about anything further.

Meanwhile, I've hopped back on findageezer.com (where I met M) and though anticipation's pretty low given the pandemic, it feels like a healthy question to send into space. Check it every couple of days and let it go, which works fine for me. Nice people. Mostly very *blue-collar guys from surrounding counties and not many highly-educated types, but I don't care. It's just good for me to remind myself I'm viable.

*I love and respect blue-collar guys. Many I know are among the wisest of my effete friends. But because I'm hyper-verbal, a similar if not matching education level does make dialogues more fun. I may learn that a strong and silent working or retired-working man is a much better bet for me. But I think I need another blabber. (I'm not as driven by sexy muscles these days....ain't blind but ain't young either.)

I've been thinking I will be seeing M in about a month for a reunion conversation; we'll likely meet at a winery and catch up that way. I do hope it goes well so we might be friends. But I'm still firm in my clarity about not committing to him for life or for marriage. Disappointing but self-preserving. I'll be genuinely delighted to see him, but not with the hope of rekindling some fantasy future. I don't really know where he'll be about us, but I'll learn that when I see him.

Future fears are present again, which makes sense, and I'm trying to address them calmly.

Relationship right now needs to be primarily with myself, my friends, my familiar UU community. I remind myself I am phenomenally lucky to have two friends right here--one next door (less intimate but very loyal to the idea of neighbors being neighbors), and one across the street (the one I called for a ride to the ER in the middle of the night, who offered "sisterhood.")

We don't check in or talk daily but I'm sure as we all get even older we'll be there for each other if someone needs help. I've also taken some bread to a guy two doors up who came to my house one day with next-door friend to help with a plumbing crisis. He's just had surgery. He's not friend-material but just having that neighbor-conscience is a good thing to do.

Back to M...what said a lot to me was that I felt real loss and grief for only a couple weeks. I bounced back into myself and felt great relief. And that was a big clear message that my perceptions of the personality obstacles (and how I could handle them or not) were right for me to respond to by breaking it off. HARD decision but I'm still convinced, the right one.

I might have lived longer (and definitely more comfortably economically) with M, but on the other hand the stress of always having to push back against his unconscious and automatic dominance was undermining my well being. Haven't changed my mind.

Who knows, one day I might regret it. So far, though, I truly don't. I wish I had a mate and still hope to find one, but day to day I'm a lot more relaxed.

hugs
Hops
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 01:16:36 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #556 on: September 09, 2020, 08:51:46 AM »
I think I overstated "only two weeks" of real loss and grief. That's not really accurate. I have felt the loss of M for months, but stuffed it by overeating. Just got aware of that cause-effect last week, I think.

What was happening in July after the breakup, I think, is that at the SAME time I was feeling grief over the loss of M and a dream partnership  ... I was simultaneously feeling such relief. The chronic tension flowed out of my shoulders. I didn't feel as though I had an invisible leash on. I wasn't rewiring my brain to live in a subtly always-stressed state and accept constant tugs on the leash. (Ritualistic emails with no content and loads of XXXXXOOOOs during the day. Loads of self-praise in most. No substance....and instead of reading them as hugs I read them as "pokes." Poor M, I'm sure I misjudged him often and likely unfairly, but that's the truth of how it felt. I think because he had demanded attention in such an INTENSE way when our relationship was growing...it was hard to relax into responding to him in a mellow way. Every inch yielded to his forceful energy about how life should go left me feeling an inch more lost. Plus, I brought in my anxiety over control and dominance inner-contradicted by a reflexive desire to please--got busy learning HIS stuff and losing track of my own.)

I hope I never do that again, if I'm lucky enough to find a new partner sometime. Somebody with thicker skin and clearer boundaries might have done better and still be with M, enjoying the pleasures and security without all the stress.

Nothing nefarious about them, but M's OCDish rigidities and rituals came smack against my decades of freedom to float and find out where my mind wanted to wander. He liked to have me for dinner every Wednesday and every Saturday. Every time it was a performance and I learned my role: to admiringly watch and comment on and praise his clever cooking and likewise during the meal to keep it up. It either wore me out or bored me out. Sad, that I couldn't be generous enough to keep that ritual afloat, because it obviously anchors his life. And I sure enjoyed the eating...

It's just that it was so unvarying. Nothing spontaneous, except ingredients. Even if I'd suggest, how about I pick up Indian (wishing he'd say sure, that'd be great--and we'd be done with it) -- every single decision about what we were going to eat was discussed with such over-seriousness that I wanted to escape. Discussed at ponderous length. Discussed as though it was the most important decision of the day, which to M it likely was. And that's no crime on his part! I just couldn't handle the intense and endlessly repetitive focus on food. He needs a foodie-woman.

Why am I repetitively discussing M again all of a sudden? I think it's because I'm excited about seeing him again next month, and when he's crossed my mind lately I've felt a little surge of love and affection over how good it will be to see his face.

I know it's not common for ex-mates to become just-friends but I hope we can pull it off.

Thanks for listening, y'all.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #557 on: September 10, 2020, 01:13:36 PM »
Hmmm. Glad I wrote the above since it helps me remember what happened and why.

One thing about the daily several emails....in other circumstances, with another personality, I'd probably LOVE that form of staying connected and close.

I couldn't with M. And until I re-read my summary above, I'd forgotten.

M's emails were ALL and almost ALWAYS about him. I know he thought he was being affectionate with the XXXXXX and OOOOOOs. For him, he was. But I would honestly say that 1 in 25 of his breathless emails about everything he was doing and thinking...would he say something like "how are you doing?".

The man did not ask me any questions about myself. I was a human sound absorber. That was the deep downside. He just didn't have insight into how his personality affected others.

This was helpful, though it's probably boring to revisit. Skip at will! It just helped me to remind myself that I had multiple very good reasons for my choice. I'm remembering dazzling- or cute-puppy M. Not regularly deaf-to-me M.

Whew--
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Dirty Hippy

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #558 on: September 11, 2020, 02:22:40 AM »
Hops, I think it's cool to write and write, who knows what will come out of it and you probably don't have to justify or apologize for it.

So you are single now? At least you got a little wine and dine out of it for a bit. This was the man who could not give you some personal space occasionally correct? (I'm not sure how many guys there are :P)

I've not been keeping up with everything here, I only pop in during green moons. I'm so lost. If you are seeing him again I doubt he has given up the idea of two. 
« Last Edit: September 11, 2020, 02:28:35 AM by Scab Mite »

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #559 on: September 11, 2020, 03:00:26 AM »
Hmmm. Glad I wrote the above since it helps me remember what happened and why.

One thing about the daily several emails....in other circumstances, with another personality, I'd probably LOVE that form of staying connected and close.

I couldn't with M. And until I re-read my summary above, I'd forgotten.

M's emails were ALL and almost ALWAYS about him. I know he thought he was being affectionate with the XXXXXX and OOOOOOs. For him, he was. But I would honestly say that 1 in 25 of his breathless emails about everything he was doing and thinking...would he say something like "how are you doing?".

The man did not ask me any questions about myself. I was a human sound absorber. That was the deep downside. He just didn't have insight into how his personality affected others.

This was helpful, though it's probably boring to revisit. Skip at will! It just helped me to remind myself that I had multiple very good reasons for my choice. I'm remembering dazzling- or cute-puppy M. Not regularly deaf-to-me M.

Whew--
Hops

I think it's very normal to look back and remember the rosy aspects more - and a good reassurance that the relationship didn't do any lasting damage or create ongoing difficulties in your life.  I think some people are a bit like getting drunk. I love getting drunk, I love the feeling of freedom, of not caring, of being silly and uninhibited - but I feel terribly ill the next day and I often end up doing stupid things I wish I hadn't.  I think people can be like that - some parts of them are great but other bits aren't good for you and so, as a package, they're best avoided.  I don't drink anymore because I can't cope with the hangovers.  You aren't in a relationship with M any more because he did too many things that drove you nuts.  Maybe a friendly meet up drink every now and again will be nice.  Maybe it will remind you why you ended it.  I think it's okay to appreciate the bits that were good and kind of nice to focus on them rather than ruminate about the things that weren't great (says the Mistress of Rumination over here :) ).  It reminded me a bit of what you said about your old gent, Hops, who gave you a deal on the car.  For him that was a great gift.  I think maybe for M the descriptions of food and the rituals of cooking and the xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx in the emails is how he shows love - but not how you recognise it.  Nothing wrong with either, just not a good match.  And you know, it's tough at the moment, we all need some nice stuff to look back on and think about.  I think it's okay to think about the rosy bits and just every now and again remind yourself of the other stuff :) xx

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #560 on: September 11, 2020, 08:25:00 AM »
You're right, Tupp. M explicitly stated was that food was how he showed love. (It was also how he showed off.) I believe there was love in it but also obsession. If I am lucky I'll one day find a man who knows that listening is a way to show love. M's difficulty with that was extreme.

Maybe I'm just ruminating a little as a bit of a warning to not slide back into things with him once we meet. Trying to keep the full picture in mind. Especially if I'm extra lonely or limping or dreading winter isolation. But the rosy bits will be his charm and energy and intelligence and I'm looking forward to seeing him next month! Plus, Pooch will be over the moon.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #561 on: September 12, 2020, 01:06:16 PM »
Sorry, (((Scabby))), forgot to answer your question. Yup, single again. M was the first serious relationship that lasted longer than a few months in many years. (One year, five months.)

Even though I'm 70 I'm still an optimist. Re-registered on a dating site for older people and am having a nice conversation with one (he lives 45 minutes away, not super far, but has no intention of ever leaving his town, so anything committed's unlikely). But I'd like to meet him at some point, I think. Otherwise, I just check it every couple days and reply nicely "no thanks" to most of my messages. There aren't a ton but it's a positive possibility so I just do it anyway.

No idea what'll happen. The new male friend I just Zoom-yak with is a treat and local. But just friend.

It's all good for me, as it eases isolation, and with a friendly word, I can ease somebody else's too.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #562 on: September 12, 2020, 03:35:19 PM »
The zoom chat sounds like a nice respite, Hops.  How long are the chats?
Lighter

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #563 on: September 12, 2020, 06:39:38 PM »
It is fun so far, Lighter!
We have usually talked around an hour and a half.

With wine.

:)
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Dirty Hippy

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #564 on: September 12, 2020, 07:07:43 PM »
SM was the first serious relationship that lasted longer than a few months in many years. (One year, five months.)

I mean I am glad for you Hops, even imperfect romance is very nice, even the temporary kind. It's worth something for sure.

It's awesome that you are using a dating site for older people, dating sites are becoming ubiquitous to our society. I wonder what kind of sociology/psychology books people have written about dating sites, I don't have time to read them, maybe another day.

Still it makes me wonder how the process of shopping online for a person has changed dating because that's what dating sites remind me of.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2020, 07:43:51 PM by Scab Mite »

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #565 on: September 12, 2020, 07:49:52 PM »
M used to joke that he "found me in a catalog."

Already have a new connection (likely friend) that will be fun. He asked if I'd like to meet.

Woo hoo! We'll see each others' foreheads! So exciting.

No details yet, won't be for a few weeks.

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

Twoapenny

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #566 on: September 14, 2020, 06:34:02 AM »
Have you and M had any contact at all, Hopsie, or did you both stick to the no contact thing?  I'm glad you've got man friend and maybe man date on the go as well, it is nice to have the social contact (albeit distanced) and to have possibilities in front of you, I think. 

I do get what you're saying about the obsessive thing with food.  I have a couple of friends like that and they're lovely, I love them to bits, but food is on their mind literally all the time - what they ate, where they're eating next, how it will be cooked, which wine to have with it.  They are genuinely making a two hundred mile round trip to go to a restaurant they both like.  It's a level of interest that I can't quite get my head around and I find difficult to enjoy all the time.  I think other people's interests can be tiring if they're not your interests as well (or at least not in the same way.  I do enjoy a nice meal but for me it doesn't go much beyond, "that was lovely - thanks").

sKePTiKal

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #567 on: September 14, 2020, 07:42:38 AM »
Hops, one thing about distance relationships I'm excruciatingly aware of... (for a number of reasons)...

is the mind's tendencies to fill in the blanks; use my own imagination to "create" the other person, how we'll be together, what we might DO together... etc. A certain amount of this is simply being interested in the other; is fun & even healthy. I think it is important to check that against a face to face experience, and not in a compressed, fleeting, time-space. Some people simply exude some energies - being themselves - that I can only bear a short amount of time. It would drive me batty in the long haul.

While it's kinda fun to discover things about another person - I don't want to have to guess what the chocolate's filling is THIS time, every time I connect. I like stability & consistency. Predictability. Might sound boring, but even consistent people have their "wild hair" moments; just not as often.

Another thing, is to be completely open - but put part of one's brain into observer mode - when you do have those face to face encounters. Be honest with yourself, about how you feel about x, y, or z in the other person. I think you were doing that with M, after the first couple of "flags" showed up, so I know you got that.

I found my imagination couldn't hold a candle to the real live B, and how I felt, and and what I observed in real life.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Hopalong

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #568 on: September 14, 2020, 09:56:28 AM »
A couple times, Tupp. He sent me two informational things on Covid and a photo essay about dogs (added that "he'd agonized for a week" over sending that), and I sent him a pic and video of a very large bear crossing the intersection close to his house where he often walks, captioning it "your new neighbor." We each were in a way trying to take care of the other. His dog-pix was different, an attempt to rekindle memories/feelings, but I didn't reply so there was no further back and forth. Slippery slope. Generally, he's respected my boundary.

Amber, couldn't agree with you more. Years ago when I absolutely hit bottom with failed relationships, the #1 cause was that I'd fantasized my brains out about someone I'd only been with a short while, or about what I wanted to happen in future with someone ditto, and became nearly deluded with hopes and fantasy. It was out of great loneliness (living with Nmom) and also an imagination on steroids. And my capacity to rely on not-in-person communications like emails (being a writer) to build the dream. NOT good for me. I was not maturely reckoning with different factors I should have, from the get go.

Since that time I became pretty fierce about forcing myself to embrace, value and respect reality. Reality is my friend became a personal mantra. Likewise, emotional availability and reciprocity.

Your outcome with Buck is one to dream of, but not in my situation something to "expect" or "make happen." As you say, I need to meet and build in the real, observe and enjoy. But first of all, always, observe.

Had a first chat on the phone with the fellow who lives 45 minutes away (in a gorgeous old house, not that I Googled him and even his ex, of course). He's friendly and we enjoyed it. We have a lot in common so he's going to be fun to meet as friends regardless, which we'll do at a winery or brewery halfway in a few weeks (I'm limping and in pain and want to feel better before we do).

He's a "B" too--a storyteller and musician. (Did things professionally similar to my early Poet in the Schools stuff, ran a contra dance program and a traditional music radio show that was well known. Think, fiddle. Still does music gigs.) Was married twice before and is separated from his third wife--I hadn't spotted that. I said I'm not judging but may I ask, were you involved with Wife #2 before the divorce from Wife #1? He said yes, that's what happened, and then Wife #2 years later left him for someone else. I told him his karma was repaired. Red flag down for his honesty, but back up for passive voice (it "happened" rather than "I chose to...").

I lied about not judging because part of me does, but busting myself for blatant hypocrisy corrects me most of the time. During my first marriage when I was so lonely and unhappy I thought I'd break, I had a one night (well, one hour) stupid empty fling with a married man I'd become fixated on at work, who was moving out of state the next day. I felt terribly guilty and confessed. My husband forgave me pretty quickly; on some level he knew he was neglecting me and our child, but I didn't forgive myself for a long time. Much later during the years I lived with my mother, I was working in California half of each month and fell in love with my married boss (who told me his marriage was dead, affectionless, "staying just for the kids" etc.). Again, physically, it was a brief and unsatisfying fling on that level. But I remained in love with him for many wasted years because we were soulmates in ways. Very painful and pointless in the long run. It took place largely in extraordinary correspondence.

I think infidelity happens because we aren't ready either to face facts about our own existing marriage and act responsibly to resolve it one way or another, or if single, we aren't ready to be with a person who is completely free to choose us. Now, I normally do not meet or date anyone who is only separated, not divorced, so I'm a little surprised I am looking forward to meeting this B person. I think it's because of Covid, as I'm so sick of isolation. And he does sound like friend material. He's a good talker. I had come from a depressing two-hour discussion group that got very dark and apocalyptic about politics and he told me a story to cheer me up. It was a long involved ridiculous tale about a man who adopted a centipede. I could see how he did this for schools, other groups and radio and it made me laugh. We also knew a musician in common and had some overlap that way.

Not a whole lot to laugh about these days, so that was nice. BUT...it's against my "rules" so it will be important to me when we meet-at-eight-feet, to be sure that I say to him: "I don't normally meet anyone new on purpose who isn't fully legally free." And I made sure to say on the phone "find new friends" etc. I didn't have trouble understanding his reasoning, I just don't think it's wise. He said the way he looks at it is he won't get the divorce unless "something happens" and there's a reason to. That's his call, maybe he doesn't want to spend the money on it. Then again, how does his ex view it? Since he sees his ex often as they still co-own another property (she lives there and he fixes it up)...I think that's an "emotionally unsafe" position for a new woman in his life, should love happen.

She gets to wait around to see if he reciprocates, but also risks investing a lot of time and feeling in someone who's in limbo and hasn't made a clear decision or isn't inclined to. She could thus if she's not careful invest a lot of time and feeling and remain uncertain and unsure a lot longer than necessary. In that sense I agreed with M, who was always talking about life being too short especially at our age.

So for now, I'm just looking forward to a fun afternoon meet with a fun fellow. But no fantasies. If there's an obvious or potential connection between us that's obvious right away, I'll make sure to say out loud right away: "This has been fun but for my own sake, I won't make plans to see you again until you are legally free. I hope we might connect again once you're free to move on." (My guess is there are financial reasons it hasn't happened so far, his 1920 house would be a money pit.)

Even when you defy them or fail, being raised with rigid morals never quite leaves, I think. Maybe the "B" one-date plan is an experiment with seeing if there's a middle ground I could live with. But I'm too vulnerable to mess about. He's fairly recently separated and probably online because he's lonely like me. At least he didn't lie about it.

Thots?

hugs
Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

lighter

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Re: Relationship/s
« Reply #569 on: September 14, 2020, 11:48:48 AM »
Oh, Hops.

I don't know.  I dated my B during his divorce, which dragged on and on.  Hi finally gave his ex everything to move on, and start again.  I ended up regretting the time I wasted waiting for the divorce to be final. In a way....my time with him feels like I was suspended in amazing energy, emotional safety, reciprocal care and interest in each other and outside activities....looking back, it really feels like a safe bubble I thrived in.  I miss it. 

If you have a true, safe connection with someone....it can be precious.  If you believe you do, but don't, it can be devastating, IME.

It can't be built by one person, IME.

I respect honesty too, but I have to balance it out with my values.  That means I'm better off IF I file honest people according to my values, even though they express desire to change or are honest to the point I over value their honesty and become.....
I have to watch my codependent tendencies is maybe what I mean.

At some point their honesty and my belief system intersect and....maybe something doesn't have to give.  Maybe people can be filed in my heart correctly, despite the honesty I value so much...maybe too much.

I'm not saying honesty is always manipulation when someone admits to cheating, being married, etc.  I'm saying....typically....what someone is doing when we meet them is what they'll be doing in relationship with us.  Not everyone requires monogamy either.

No judgment about that, only my own need for clarity and preference for honesty, no matter what that is. 

I can respect honesty without rewarding it with trust.  I can appreciate honesty without extending vulnerability.  I can hear someone's truth without judging it, even if it goes against my world views. 

What you build with new friends can take shapes and forms you aren't familiar with.  You can say NO and mean it, defend it and not listen to wrangling and reasons to change your hard NO, rather than waste time and energy giving attention to someone trying to change your mind.

You deserve respect for your honesty too.  You deserve to be accepted for who you are, just as you extend that to others, IME.

I guess that's important to remember....
You're not an apple on a tree to be picked by a man.  My mother said that to me while I wrestled with dating a divorcing man during my own divorce.....B.

Looking back, my B was right....it was OK to date and move forward with plans and connection.....even if it was complicated.  It was also amazing and rare and worth investing in.....in that case.

No connection with other is worth dishonoring connection with self, IME. 

You posted about keeping imagination out of relationship....and I agree that's good to be mindful of.

Enjoying music and friend connection with a new person sounds fun and reciprocal with this person, right now. 

I don't imagine all connection has to be between single people.  As long as everyone has a realistic view of what's happening, or not happening.....connection can be many very good different things, imo.

Maybe you have a new best friend in this person? Maybe this person offers the chance to learn hard lessons that expand your vision and understanding? Maybe there will be romance? 

Whatever happens, be honest
with
yourself.  That's the most important connection.

Good on' ya, Hops, for seeking out more if what you want.

Lighter
P.S.  I'm pecking out posts with one finger.  No time to edit.