Voicelessness and Emotional Survival > Voicelessness and Emotional Survival Message Board

Relationship/s

<< < (20/206) > >>

lighter:
So much wise input....Amber, and Tupp. Wow.

I wanted to touch on finding a safe way to express and receive comfort/physical attention that could help calm things down.

Maybe set up a playdate in jammies with soothing touch....inner arms, backs of knees, where more trust, and comfort are exchanged.

If you initiate, Hops, it could flip things for both of you, IME.  There would be important rules in place, and agreed to.

You can consider it, or dismiss the idea as you've handled this well as can be expected.  You'll continue making sound decisions.

Lighter

Hopalong:
Whew. I want to apologize in advance for not replying to each post discretely, but just yammering. Recent things you have each observed or offered have had a hugely helpful impact on my thinking recently. But if this time, I take the time to tease out individual observations and respond to each properly I'll never get through it.

The whole ante just upped a lot for me, and it's got many layers. So please forgive me for not responding properly individually, so I can just get most of it out.

I nearly broke up with M. We're at a pivot point. I think he knows it but what matters is that I know it. Reasons:

--He got an automated update from my D's online fundraiser. He danced around but told me about it. AND, he characterized it as "I got an email from X [D's friend who runs the site for her]." My instant fear and pain was what it always is. He had made a previous donation, adding a note about "from someone who loves someone who loves you very much" (which was intrusive, behind my back, and not okay. He was inserting himself to make me the source.) But my first thought was, oh no, her friend doesn't have my contact info so wrote to him (because his email shows his name). Is my D dead? What has happened?

The truth? It WASN'T a personal contact, it was a routine auto email from the site hosts (it mentioned friend's name in subject line but was clearly an auto-thing). And he didn't make that clear.

Long story shorter, it turned into a lot of excruciating back and forth where he toyed with what or how he was going to strategize his donations to her (because "he really wants to help."). And my heart is torn because damn, he COULD change her life if he wanted. BUT...it's all under the umbrella of him having a paternalistic sense of himself, and I know about his previous driving interest in her ("the daughter I never had", and his obsessive returning and returning to pry about her earlier...and I do not want her to become one of his f*ing PROJECTS). Then...I learned that his second donation (which he didn't ask me about, despite having agreed that he would do NOTHING in her direction ever, without my explicit permission) was a piddling amount. It won't do anything real for her and it was not worth dragging me through the anguish I go through every single time he finds a way to bring her up.

Anyway, later he sent me an email that, in my view, was arrogant (he sees his motives as purely altruistic--I believe he's willing to bring up my D, casting himself in a hero's light, in order to get my attention yanked back to him) and included phrases like "I have not yet decided what I'll do" and "I will let you know what I do" and "I will let you know when..." etc. All of his remarks in that email were the opposite of keeping his earlier promise to never interfere, never question my judgement about my D, and never make a single move in her direction unless he has my explicit permission. And the fact that early on, I knew I needed to spell this out should have been a warning.

Anyway, I am not giving that permission. Something about his triangulating over this, fantasizing about "I'll have to find another channel to reach her" (what? a private investigator? is he kidding?), inserting his power as an uninvited father figure when he does not know her and does not comprehend mental illness, made me feel he was basically disturbing the status quo as much for his own gratification---a hero fantasy---as for her. And with absolutely no regard for what all this stirred up for me. Agony. Again.

I just lost it with his "another channel" remark, because he's proceeding with a rescue fantasy separate from me and it's not his place! I get him. I get that he sees himself as the kindly pater familias, and has fantasies of incorporating her into his "firelight." BUT AFTER FOUR MONTHS IN MY LIFE HE IS NOT WELCOME TO DO THAT. He is too into control and pressure and getting what he wants and creating goals that involve wearing me down...and if he inserts himself between me and my D, not only will I NEVER see her again but I would never forgive him for that invasion of MY parental space, empty though it is. He doesn't have at stake what I do, and he must respect my wishes. Period.

I basically blew up in writing, ranted at him about the boundary I'd set and felt he blew past, and told him I didn't feel safe with him emotionally.

He was devastated and said I mischaracterized everything, and he simply wants to help. Maybe he does. He is sensitive. But also has so much unrecognized male privilege and power that he can play around with another person's deepest life, just because he is wealthy. I am SO sensitive to this, and for him to busy himself in my greatest wound "just because he can" makes me crazy. So we fought on the phone, I pulled back, and then he had another panicky meltdown.

(My long stories never get shorter, sorry.) Finally, I told him I do NOT want to talk about it, but if he wants to donate this and only this is what he has my permission to do:

1) Donate ONE amount through that fundraiser, ONE time more. Up to him, but whatever he is comfortable with. (Iow, don't give one hundred and then another hundred months later. If he REALLY wants to "rescue" her, then do something that will make a difference.) I said, take the money you're spending on taking me to Paris and give her that. It would be a much better use of that amount. (He's told me he wins or loses that much on the stock market in a day, or maybe it was a week, can't remember. I don't care, but he's not going to send me into the emotional pits over an unserious amount. If he really is yearning to help her, then help her. In a real way. Or shut up about it.) I really do believe it was about getting my attention back. He comes up with pretext after pretext any time I withdraw.

2) Do it anonymously, and unsubscribe from further updates. I cannot cope with ongoing hints, reminders, mentions of emails, etc.

I also said, do it without hinting, expecting thanks, asking for credit, or turning it into a fantasy of becoming directly involved. He replied, "I understand" and I hope he does.

I didn't want to see him for days and couldn't sleep and felt awful. Because of course I want her to be helped!!!! But not if he's "taking over" and going at it like Professor Superior. I left him a message after calming down, telling him I care about his heart too, but he does not grasp the "ferocity of pain" I have around this issue, that I know things about her approach to life that he does not, and the next time I saw him we didn't talk about my D again.

So I really mean it. If he's motivated solely by empathy but also respects me, then he should give her a significant sum that could actually change her situation. Or nothing. I'm not letting a millionaire play with my pain just because he can purchase "credit" for that because he has that economic ability.

He doesn't see any of this (the power and privilege stuff) or worry about it. But I see it, and I do.

Next, there was his complete freakout that I was backing away. I considered not going to Paris and really hesitated. So the next time we got together he was trembling, put his head on my shoulder like a child, and was clearly devastated. I was unnerved by his emotional collapse.

So there's a whole LOT to unpack, in therapy and in our relationship, if it's going to survive. He says he's looking forward to his first T appointment. My sense of him is that his approach will be completely intellectual and it will be many months before he faces what drives him at the core. A huge insecurity, despite his career.

What I'm contemplating is being a loving friend to him (I do love him) and backing way off the romance. I'm romanticism-averse anyway, and his romantic hyperbole was entertaining and flattering at first, but I realize (not for the first time in my life) that it leads to delusions unless a person keeps a tight grip on the difference between fantasy love (he's a medievalist and on his 18th book grounded in the 15th century) and reality-based love.

I told a friend this week that I want two things in a relationship: love and freedom. And if I'm ever backed into a corner and forced to choose, I will choose freedom.

So there it is. I still love the man, haven't completely abandoned the dream of a happy future together (we enjoyed ourselves a lot on a recent outing, talked as enthusiastically as ever). But for my pace, we're way too early to be talking about permanence and racing into commitment or major changes (me moving, etc.).

I hope therapy and travel both add good layers and we can grow together, still. But if we can't...I choose freedom. (Even old-age poverty doesn't scare me as much as losing that. I do commit and sacrifice, but it's voluntary. I won't be pried out of a parental role, or wedged into any other kind of presumed role, without consent.)

Thanks much for listening, alla y'all. Thoughts very welcome as always, and next time I'll appreciate them one person at a time.

Love you much!
xxxooo
Hops

Twoapenny:
Oh Hops.  I will speak bluntly and from my gut and I will apologise now because it will probably sound too blunt and I don't mean or want to add to what you are dealing with at the moment but I found reading what he's done with regards to your D horrendously painful, horribly, horribly controlling, utterly dismissive of your terribly broken heart where your D is concerned - and then he manipulated the whole thing back round so that he was the terribly wounded party crying on your shoulder because he was 'only trying to help'.

I won't lecture you on what you should and shouldn't do; you are a wise woman, you've weathered these storms many times before and we all know you won't end up trapped in a bad place.  But I can see nothing but control and manipulation in everything you described there.  Sitting down with you, discussing D's fundraiser, asking what you think about him donating, if so how much, etc etc, would all have been appropriate.  Giving you time to think, feel, wonder and then respecting your decision, whatever it was, all good.

But donating, talking about email updates, claiming he'll contact her in other ways, he hasn't decided what he'll do yet - what the f?  No, Hopsie, this is very bad, these are not misguided attempts to help, this is controlling behaviour and through your D as well - that terribly painful and tenuous relationship that you've tried so desperately to avoid severing completely without allowing yourself to be destroyed in the process.  Such a huge job you've had to do with that and he treats it like a game?  And doesn't even give you the grace of knowing her medical bills are paid (which I know would be a huge weight off your mind) but instead donates a small amount that will make no difference.

My worry (for you) is that this has changed so dramatically and so hugely in such a short space of time.  I am reminded of a previous boyfriend of mine who was, initially, so charming and funny and I enjoyed being with him so much.  We fell head over heels so quickly, moved in together and literally within weeks I was living with a completely different person - whiny, clingy, didn't like me going out without him, used to turn up if I did go out and leave him at home, called me throughout the day which initially I took as a sign he really liked me but I eventually realised was just him getting his 'mommy' fix from me.  This doesn't feel like the slow unpacking of a relationship were you gradually learn more about one another; it feels more like a facade initially and this is the reality.

I understand completely you loving him.  Love doesn't vanish overnight in the same way it isn't there overnight but please do be careful not to work too hard at understanding where he's coming from in all of this, Hops.  You're not his therapist and you shouldn't have to wait months?  years? to see if the therapy is making any difference.  If he'd been like this when you first met him you'd have run a mile.  So please do just take care to guard your heart and keep your time for you, your self care, your health and your own peace of mind.

You don't need to worry about replies or apologise for not replying; we all know what it's like when things boil over like this.  But he needs to sort himself out pronto; I will not be happy if I have to come over there and kick his arse!!

Please do take care of you and I'm sorry for sounding harsh and abrupt but this is troubling me and I don't want you getting hurt xx

Hopalong:
Thank you, Tupp.
I think your warnings are realistic and completely reasonable.
That's why I've hit the brakes.
Not (so far) to end the relationship, but to pull back enough that I get a chance to see if he's learning fast or not at all.

I agree with you that he was being manipulative but am also thinking that's driven by huge anxiety. Reflexive, but not his true character (hopefully, and it remains to come clear).

His carelessness or lack of recognition of what it'd trigger in me is blindness rather than cruelty, I think. Even though he does have a very tender heart (dogs, kids, I can see it clearly) ... I think it's impossible to show true empathy when:

--one is beside oneself with anxiety and dependent need (I was exactly like this in a relationship some years ago), and

--due to personality, anxiety and insecurity, one cannot listen enough to feel fully developed empathy. One might WISH to, but anxiety can be like a forest fire. (I told him grief hurts terribly, but anxiety terrifies.)

I truly am curious about his response to therapy. Enough to want to remain in his life -- at least for now. But with substantial changes. I'm stepping back and planning to tell him I think we either slow it way back and reboot back to getting to know each other through traditional talking (not life fusing so fast). Or we stop.

Your concern is very well reasoned and well taken. I'm listening.

And so grateful.
love,
Hops

PS--And if it turns out he does need a good old-fashioned Tupp-Whupping (arse kicking), I'll buy your plane ticket!  xxxooo

sKePTiKal:
Oh (((((((((HOPS))))))))). How horrible for you.

Yes, he definitely exposed his ulterior motives breaking through that boundary. Completely agree with your assessment - and I feel your upset is justified. You explained how this was very painful for you up front, to the best of your ability -- and he thinks he can fix this, get back in your good graces by using D? WHATever he thought -- I think you've clearly seen through that. Talk about jeopardizing trust.

:shakes head:

Tell ya what, while I was going through that feet 6 in off the ground phase myself, part of the reason I kept babbling about it, was because I KNOW it's not good for me to stick in that phase too long. I needed to see how I was getting the cart before the horse. As it is, it wore off in 72 hours and I was grounded again. STILL just as happy, but a lot more sane. Having more time in between seeing my guy is a GOOD thing, IMO.

The silly things I entertained in my head that first 24 hrs after he left anyway... make me rightfully blush. I KNOW BETTER, by now. And I may return to those giddy, googly-eyed feelings again... but they can't be ALL I'm thinking/feeling about him. Real life, has a whole different set of requirements.

Now, I guess you've got a chance to see how he responds to you being angry with him. See if he can apologize and understand what he did wrong and why that made you angry - after specific instructions not to interfere, because it would cause you pain. See if he understands that anger in one partner doesn't HAVE to mean the end of the relationship (although sometimes it does) and if he can do what is needed to repair what he broke INSTEAD OF what (believing he knew better) he tried to "fix".

I think you're the one who's taken on the "project" Hops. More power (and patience) to ya... I think you're gonna need it. That's the kind of thing I'd have been angry about too. It's like going behind your back to assert his "greater powers" to make things OK... when all he's done is made them worse than they were previously. I don't think I'd have been as kind and compassionate to him as you were.

PS - might be a good night to sip some bourbon with a girlfriend.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page