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sKePTiKal:
Aw Hops... I just lost a huge long rambling post thanks to kitty & puppy dumping coffee. Dammit.

But, my main point was that fear of loss always starts from a recognition of something external to oneself that creates a sense of wholeness in the person; something that they can't or don't know how to supply for themselves. There is usually an ego-wound wrapped up in that fear somewhere too. That drives the clinginess, the anxiety, and the protestations that they'll just curl up and die without you. Been there, done that myself... and stopped doing it. (for now)

That's a hell of a lot shorter and sans the reminiscences of Mike's bio and our relationship than what was written before. Probably a lot more digestible too. LOL.

Having gone through my own loss of Mike and sharing with and supporting other widows... realize that the process each person goes through is based on their basic emotional make up. One woman insisted she wanted to die, for months. Despite bringing up all the ways she hated her hubby. Others are mostly withdrawn and private, only occasionally seeking out the connection of understanding & support from others. One in particular, moved into high gear "doing" immediately after her hubs' passing and didn't stop to breathe for at least a year. All of them, including moi, have come through all those wacky phases without attempting to replace the attachment object that was lost. (to speak clinically about it)

M's only in year 1 of adjusting. His manifestions are partly due to his loss, and finding that you and he are incredibly compatible in a lot of ways is fueling hope for replacement - even though rationally, he's probably aware that you are a different person altogether. The emotional & rational in him, at the moment, aren't exactly the same stream of energy. Maybe he does have attachment issues, or some emotional neediness that he hasn't acknowledged and brought into his rational brain yet. Counseling, therapy of course, helps with that. But in a convoluted way - this is ALSO a form of grieving and trying to make himself whole again. IMO, the only thing that makes a person whole again is time - and mostly time spent making peace with the loss and finding one's self again - the whole self.

But that's hindsight talking; I'm coming up on the 4th year of my loss. I know that early on, I simply could not explain my behavior or actions to anyone - not even Hol. She kinda understood intuitively since we've always been close and because we've spent so much time together now, she gets it. She's been monitoring me and the progress going on. And she's impatient as hell, for me to just let go of the past patterns and habits and move the F on, to put it her vernacular. LOL. I'm just trying to give myself the luxury of thoroughness and creating the new comfort-zone of being able to trust my SELF, without relying so much on externals - mostly other people - for that sense of well-being. Given my past history you can see how that makes sense. For ME.

Other people need different things; have different ways through. So, maybe one thing you and M can start to talk about, is whether this manifestion of neediness is really who he is... or if it's new, and a reaction to loss and trying to find his way through that. There isn't any weakness or shame involved in getting help with the process. In my most confused times... my big brothers and all you Amazons were there shining some light on what I couldn't see then. Holly too. We DO tend to come out the other side of grieving loss knowing ourselves better and stronger emotionally, if we give ourselves the opportunity to go through the labyrinth.

You are right to be wary of being the band-aid in this situation. But you don't know enough yet, to determine if this behavior is engrained in his personality and therefore a red flag, or if it's related to grieving. Bandaids don't fix or heal anything; they just protect the ego from the agony of the labyrinth. Time apart is the common sense way to get some perspective on the situation. Counseling will likely provide the answers you need, and I agree with your T - it shouldn't take long. Remember, "bargaining" is one of the steps in the grieving process... and gifts to an attractive replacement can be seen as bargaining, can't it?

OK, I'm getting wordy again and off in the weeds. Good place to stop before I go completely off the rails again. LOL.

Hopalong:
Thank you, Amber.
I think you're spot on that it's grief unfinished, or at least partially that.

He greeted me last night with another question, expressed with trembling intensity:
"Do we love each other?" I asked back, "Why are you asking this?" (I could tell it was a "trick" question -- not manipulative tricky, but sort of desperate trick to reassure himself.) I said yes, I love you. And he is staring and says (for the umpteenth time) that he loves me, "deeply." And then he says, "Then that's it! All is well! Because that's the baseline, everything will be fine!"

And, because my hobby is peeing on people's dreams, I said, but these words are not magic. Love is not enough. Love is real but it's not magic and doesn't fix everything.

Still, we had a more peaceful evening. He talked a lot about his panic and paranoia, and more about the physical vulnerability he feels, and more and MORE about how much he desires me wants to caress me how important touch is (for the umpteenth time). I tried to express how when something is constantly verbalized it may dampen the chances that it (meaning reciprocal desire) can arise organically in a present moment.

I said it better than that. What I meant was, yes I am attracted, but the constant talk ABOUT touching makes it less natural to touch or let it happen naturally. (I think I meant, you don't give me a chance to touch you before you verbalize it; it's as though as you're in a relationship with yourself and just sharing the thoughtstream). He just narrates everything, even while it's happening. I can hold him and he'll take it in for a nanosecond and then start: "Yes? See? I like this! See how nice this is! It feels so good to be close to you...and on and on and ON."

Maybe part of it is professoritis. He literally talks his way through life and though I sure am a talker too, I think my T had an insight when she suggested that his nonstop narration might be a way of making a wall of words.

Rather than bringing us closer, sometimes his talking allows nothing in. It's a stream of illustrations and instructions sometimes. It's too fast for him to take much in. Though I do notice he comes back later and refers to something I said once. He's brilliant IQ, and struggling EQ.

We went for a walk after dinner and I think that calms him down. He does have a lot of the "H" in ADHD, I think. His life has been almost nonstop cerebral for decades.

Whew, tiring just to write about. But for me, we stepped down the intensity a notch, and he also acknowledged that although he fell deeply, completely in love with me--the timing might have been too soon in terms of grief. And I was glad to hear him say it. For him to recognize that these things could be overlapping was good, and gets to the heart of what you were saying, about replacement.

He does see me as an individual. But he was trying to make his last chapter "over and done" and grief doesn't work that way. It flows in and out for a long time. That loss will come and go even once he's in my arms the morning after. That is natural.

love,
Hops

Twoapenny:
I think, from reading that, Hops, that it makes sense that the speed and intensity he's showing at the minute with your relationship is a way for him to stop or avoid feeling the loss of his wife, or that there's guilt in there somewhere (because he's fallen in love again) and he's trying to block it out.  And I don't mean by that that he's using you as a distraction and his feelings aren't real, just more that his feelings for you are probably (must be) triggering feelings for his late wife and the pain of losing her - and possibly pain from that first marriage that perhaps is still lurking in there somewhere.  We all know how keeping busy stops us from dealing with painful feelings.  Hopefully his therapy sessions will start helping him to make headway with that somewhere (and maybe offloading to a therapist will slow down what he talks to you about as well).  He's very lucky to have you as a port in the storm at the moment; I suspect someone less self assured and focused would have either thrown in the towel by now or rushed along to keep up with him - neither of which I think would be very sensible.  I hope things settle a bit for you and he starts seeing his T soon xx

lighter:
Oh Lordy, Hops:

If this T, and you can't find a way to get M calmed down.... I don't know how long you can remain steady.

It's impossible to know if this very need state is M's constant, or if it's a temporary way of being.

If this is how he was during both marriages... he's unlikely to change, IME.

I'm up to my elbows in gators right now, but will come back and post more tomorrow.  I hope.

Sorry things are slipping sideways, Hops.  I'm hoping this is just a bobble.

Lighter

sKePTiKal:
Tupp, I'm starting to think you have the best natural ability of all of us here, to be able to counsel others. Your intuition about him feeling guilty or trying to make amends for something in the past could be spot on. It IS something that people who've lost a spouse experience and it manifests in different ways.

Hops, that belief in the magic of those 3 words to make everything OK, in all situations unequivocably is something I've known too in Mike. Sometimes, it does work. But more often, I think women prefer being SHOWN that love in actions and behaviors... than simply another reiteration of the promised commitment. Words are just words, after all. And since we all lie to ourselves at one time or another - or indulge in pretending - the incantation is always less than satisfying to our different ways of knowing the world. But, in my experience with guys and their foibles, I think many times the incantation is made in hopes of being shown that love to themselves... as much as wanting the opportunity to proceed showing it to you. (It's a more concrete transaction that way for them - or some of them. And no, I don't have the words right yet about this.)

I have seen a pattern in people who demonstrate their anxiety with a tsunami of words (wonder how I caught on to that... LOL). Variations about the reasons why are sure to exist. But what Lighter said about the wall of words is a bullseye. People around the talker, get caught up in the stream... feedback and interaction from the audience, reassures the talker that they're worthy of attention and having an impact; that they are "real"... even as the wall of words hides their feelings of insecurity about their self-worth. They're good at talking; they're less good just being quiet and still feeling comfortable in their own skin. The motivation is to prove... worthiness. IE, worthiness is conditional and dependent on being able to express themselves, be understood, and even praised... by external sources. It's a form of lack of self-confidence. Professor-itis, indeed. As many faculty as I've known over the years, as the relationships endured and deepened, this was something that many of them had in common. Part of my job was helping them feel confident in their abilities to manage technology.

So, that's identifying a possible problem. Solutions or Rx's... are to reassure the person that it's perfectly safe to relax with you. Maybe choose a time to "practice" just being together silently. Start with short time frames, or the antsyness will get unbearable... LOL. While it's important to communicate your boundaries and need for time alone, it's also necessary to emphasize the wish to share time together. Above & beyond, what you normally would do perhaps. This might help dampen any fears of abandonment. (and it doesn't always help; in this case, I don't think M knows any other way to manage his feelings, and perhaps hasn't even untangled them yet; when he's shown how I'm sure he'll try his best to master it before he realizes that isn't even totally necessary all the time)

Maybe set aside some time during the week to play a little game. Something to occupy monkey-mind, like checkers or cards... while just being together. That might reveal some new information. And it also gives you both practice not being focused so much on each other but still being very much together.

And.... I'm getting way too far out in the weeds again. Be patient, Hops. Your sense of things is strong and wise. You're a little ahead of M, in the process of getting to know each other - the warts & all phase. And if he's going to devote some time to inner work on his own, he'll need the privacy to deal with it. It's temporary, as we know. But I have a feeling he's going to need a lot of the same kind of compassionate support and intuition that we practice around here, too. For awhile. You both will see the relationship from a new perspective, down the road a ways. And you can't predict that perspective from where you are now - travelling together. Hang in there; M will appreciate that later.

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