What we want here

[Portia]

This relates to Confused2’s thread: “I have access to my N's personal email”. I don’t want to put it there, because it’s become more general as I wrote it. I also don’t want to clog up that thread with this pondering stuff. If you want to reply please do, but also if I get 0 replies, I don’t mind. I have asked for others’ thoughts, but maybe you don’t have time or you’re not interested in which case that’s okay with me. I just want to talk and order and sift and try and make sense. I’ll probably reply myself when I’ve changed my mind a few times.

This is coming in from posts on pages 3 and 4 of that thread.

Different styles, different skills, doesn’t make any of them less useful than the others? Advice and problem-solving are probably good for lawyers - and do you want to pay lawyers for acknowledgement time? Not me! I’d just want the advice, straight and to the point, in some situations.

Acknowledging feelings, validating as it’s called. What does it mean?

Is it listening to someone’s hurt and saying what – that must really hurt?

If so, what do we get from this exchange? The sense that we are being listened to and that the person agrees with our viewpoint? Or that they sympathise (feel pity for us)? Or that they are asking us ‘am I right, does that hurt?’.

For me acknowledgment is the sense that someone is trying to understand my experience. But I don’t feel that everyone sees it like that. I get the feeling that validation for some is acceptance – having their thoughts and feelings accepted as okay. I suppose for me it was being given permission to feel the way I did. That’s not the same as acceptance. Permission is about my world, changing my internal world. Acceptance is about being part of a group. Introverts and extroverts have different needs perhaps.

I don’t say: "it’s okay to behave like that" - unless I really believe that it is okay from what I know about a person. I’m not going to betray my own ideas about life in order to help someone else feel accepted (e.g. it’s okay to ignore some crime because you’re feeling depressed). No way! That threatens my psychological survival. I will listen but I might not accept your behaviour. I guess that means that although I will listen, I will not accept you unless you change. Or unless you change my way of thinking in the course of our talking.

I think these below are two ways of relating. I’d really like to hear what others here think. I wonder if I’m missing something.

I’m listening to you, I’m trying to understand your thoughts and feelings, whatever they are (that does not mean that I agree with you).

I hear you and have thought and felt similar things and can perhaps share the way you think and feel (this means that we are similar).

Similar experiences can make the leap of empathy easier. It takes more time and effort to understand someone if their situation is very different to your own. And we ain’t paid to be here!

Interpreting what someone wants is difficult too. Do they want quick, practical advice or do they want to talk things through? Sometimes I just don’t know.

We’re all different. We’re ALL here I think because we want to connect with others and some of have a want/need to help others too (not wanting to help others probably has it’s good points too because in not helping deliberately, well, maybe it does help!). Even if we come here and shout or criticise or disrupt or question or say absolutist things…..it’s all experience and the more we learn, the better. I think.

Here’s something I’ve started to think. I try not to make observations about other people here, or about groups of people here (if indeed there are any groups, which seems unlikely). I try not to talk about people. Instead I will try and talk to them. (Unless I want to deliberately try to provoke them, in which case I will talk about them! The provoking is to try to get a reaction, to get some engagement. It doesn’t usually work.)

On the other hand telling someone to their face "you're an idiot" doesn't help much either. Maybe we could ask "Are you an idiot?" instead ha ha ha ha! JOKE I can't stand all this seriousness! ha ha haha! Sorry. Hic! Being serious doesn't mean we live longer, it just seems like it.

Talking about is almost always pointing a finger, making groups of ‘us’ and ‘them’.  Even talking about the Board itself is talking about, because what is the board but people? I might be with the board (I’m part of it, the group) or against the board (I’m not part of it, a loner): both are daft positions and if you got this far, I won’t bore any more by saying why I think that. I just bored myself out and can feel the words disappearing up my own orifices (ouch).

[Learn]

Hi Portia,

I think you have brought up a great thread.  What do we want here?  My first thought is that we want our voices to be heard and accepted.  We want others to understand where we are at and how we got there.  And I think we want helpful advice on how to move forward.  We don't want to be devalued.

We all do have different ways of providing this for each other.  I don't think there is one right way.  Some posters have a very direct style.  Some posters are less direct and more poetic.  Some posters are unsure of themselves.  Still, most of the contributors are trying to empathise with each other's voices and provide support and advice to move each other forward.    

I’m listening to you, I’m trying to understand your thoughts and feelings, whatever they are (that does not mean that I agree with you).

I think this means that you are accepting the person and that person's voice.  Still, you may not accept that person's behavior.  What is wrong with that?  I think there is a difference between not accepting a behavior and actually judging the person acting.  Often, I can understand very well why a person is acting poorly and I have compassion for that person.  Still, I am not helpful to that person if I enable that person to continue to act that way.  I may be helpful if I offer that person an alternative viewpoint.

Thanks Portia for the opportunity to express my thoughts.

Learning

[Stars]

Good Morning Moon,

Wow!  Someone just left their gym bag in front of my locker, again.

a Star

[Anonymous]

Good Morning Moon,

Wow! Someone just left their gym bag in front of my locker, again.

a Star

What does this mean? Anyone know?

[Anonymous]

Your pondering didn't bore me so I'm going to add a bit of what I think, ok?

It is interesting to consider:
 

Acknowledging feelings, validating as it’s called. What does it mean?

For me, acknowledging feelings is probably my truest response, in reference to the title of this thread, and what that means to me is letting people know that their feelings are valid.  I mean, after all, the whole N thing totally devalues our feelings, or attempts to eliminate them, confuse or distort them, which has to be a big part of, if not mainly, what makes us feel voiceless in the first place, right?  It seems that way for me, anyway.  So possibly what I need most is simply to be told that my feelings do first--exhist and second--have value and that alone might help to bring me away from the harm I've endured and possibly even help me to begin a journey of healing?

So ofcourse next I  want to heal from those hurts.  So what does that mean?  What helps me to heal?  What helps people heal?

If I think of a festering wound then I want to clean it with a soothing solution first thing.  Wash away the yucky stuff.  Then, leave the wound open to the air for a little while, give it a chance to just breathe, without any interference from irritating fabric.  But that can't go on forever because people have to live and move about so I know I must, after awhile, protect the wound.  It might be good to put an antibiotic substance on it and cover it gently with clean gauze and plan to check on it again soon.  If I keep doing this, it will likely heal.

So are emotional wounds much different?  Isn't that what we are all suffering from?  Do we not need our wounds flushed out and exposed to breathe?  Then covered with preventitive medicine and a clean dressing?
Checked on periodically until they close up and grow well?

This would feel good and help me to heal, I think.

For me acknowledgment is the sense that someone is trying to understand my experience

For me too.  Also, that that person expresses that desire but it goes a bit further for me.  It also means, to me, being told that whatever I feel because of my experience, is ok, is understandable, is acceptable because I am entitled to my feelings.  They are valid and they are real for me and I have every right to feel whatever it is I feel.

The flushing part is just spewing those feelings out.  It's clensing.
The antibiotic medicine is the hope that is spread over it all, the encouragement that others give me to let me know that my wound (s) will heal and things will get better. That I don't have to let them fester.   Also, letting me know that I can come back here and have my wounds flushed as many times as I need to and that I will not be alone because there are others who are trying to understand and help me in that clensing.
The gauze is/are the new ideas that might be suggested, different perspectives I might consider, choices I might have not thought about, advice that comes from another person's heart in an effort to help me.

I don’t say: "it’s okay to behave like that" - unless I really believe that it is okay

Neither do I but I do say:  "It's okay to feel".

It's how we act on what we feel that makes all the difference, isn't it?
Do we want to repeat what we've experienced from those who have caused our wounds or do we want to learn how not to do that?
I'm sure that is a silly question.

We’re ALL here I think because we want to connect with others

I agree with you and then some.

Even if we come here and shout or criticise or disrupt or question or say absolutist things…..it’s all experience and the more we learn, the better. I think.

Or maybe if we are doing those things, we might simply be flushing our own hurts and if the rest of us recognize this, and try to understand, we might all do better at connecting?

Talking about is almost always pointing a finger

And doesn't it just cause more hurt?  Is that what we want here?

Just another guest, pondering with you.

[Stars]

Portia,

I know this my sound strange but...
As a performance car enthusiast, Porsche included, your post makes me think....

You offer the panoramic view of the Cayenne (SUV),
the stability and management of the 911 Cabriolet,
and the performance capability of the Carrera GT.

Thanks for the test drive.

[Portia]

Replies

Hiya Learning, I agree especially

I may be helpful if I offer that person an alternative viewpoint.

*just happy appreciating you*

Hiya Pondering Guest (is it okay to say that?).
Your feelings exist and have value. They do! I like that. Much much better than being told how you feel

My feelings are real for me. Yes. And my thoughts too. If my thoughts are ‘crazy’ and I’m not sure even if they are inside my head or not, they’re still real for me. I need someone to take them seriously.

I can come back here and have my wounds flushed as many times as I need to

yes very very important! It’s not a straight line from A (unhealthy) to B (healthy). And the journey is your own. Throw away the ‘How to’ books, or read them back to front, or upside down. Everyone does it differently. Pick and mix your choice of therapies. Do what feels right for you. Don’t do what anyone else tells you to do if it doesn’t feel right for you. Get religion if you want to – but do it on your own terms, no-one else’s.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result? What a mad world we have made.

Even if we come here and shout or criticise or disrupt or question or say absolutist things…..it’s all experience and the more we learn, the better. I think.

Or maybe if we are doing those things, we might simply be flushing our own hurts and if the rest of us recognize this, and try to understand, we might all do better at connecting?

I just wanted to repeat all that.

Hiya Stars. What’s with the gym bag? Curious! Ack blush blush I wish I was a Porsche but I’m just a wee Shakespearean lawyer. Test drive? Mmmmm, uh-huh. I’ve never driven one. I’d quite like to, just the once, for fun. The Carrera GT of course (in black) , serious playtime! But test drive…how’s about we open her up a bit on those German autobahns where the speed limits are…shucks, I have no idea. Ha ha. Blown it!

Thanks for the replies so far, hopeful P

Edit in

I put this on the 'Letter' thread of MyWifeandI's but I *think* I just changed my mind:

Empathy is not love. Love is valuing someone simply because they exist, regardless of what you get out of any relationship. “I love you simply because you are.” But we can have empathy for someone we do not love. Empathy is taking a leap of imagination into someone else’s world. You can attempt to empathise with murderers. It doesn’t mean you love them.

I'm not sure that real deep empathy isn't love. Maybe it is? Love as in the stuff that just flows outwards and doesn't expect in return? Tricky stuff.

[Anonymous]

Hiya Pondering Guest (is it okay to say that?).

Yes, it's ok.

If my thoughts are ‘crazy’ and I’m not sure even if they are inside my head or not, they’re still real for me. I need someone to take them seriously.

This is something that is not always easy to do.  If someone expresses a crazy thought, (and we might realize how real that thought is for that person), do we easily take that thought seriously?

I express: "I think I'm the man in the moon".

How easily can you take my crazy thought seriously?

The greatest example of self-control is to try not to insult the person's thinking (which can be tempting) but rather to somehow find a way to ask questions might help the person to clarify their thoughts.  Tricky.

Throw away the ‘How to’ books, or read them back to front, or upside down. Everyone does it differently. Pick and mix your choice of therapies. Do what feels right for you. Don’t do what anyone else tells you to do if it doesn’t feel right for you.

.

Is this advice?  My cousin built a cedar strip cannoe by following a "how to" book.  Cedar strip cannoe building is generally considered an art and a skill that takes years to develop.  He did a miraculous job of it, by following the directions in that book (ofcourse, he forgot to measure carefully and the cannoe wouldn't fit out of the basement window, when he was finished constructing it, so he had to dismantle a large wall to get the thing out of the basement.....heehee..genious!!).  Generally, this sounds like good advice you seem to be giving but where did this (quote below) come from?

Get religion if you want to – but do it on your own terms, no-one else’s.

Still pondering.

[Portia]

Questions!  

How easily can you take my crazy thought seriously?

It depends on how seriously you take your thought. If you take it seriously, so will I. It also depends on whether your thought causes you suffering and you want the suffering to stop. If you’re happy with your thoughts and you don’t give other people a problem, and they don’t give you a problem, hey, what’s wrong with crazy thoughts?

Can I take a real example I’ve heard about from a friend who meets with the person? He says: “I have no face.”

I know very little about this man but I asked: “what does he see when looks in a mirror?” my friend said “nothing”. I don't know what that means. Okay, let’s talk to the man who thinks he has no face.....

“I have no face.” I don’t know what he’d say, but I might ask:
What do you mean? What does ‘face’ mean?

Why do you think you haven’t got a face? (who knows where this may lead.)

Can you imagine what having a face would feel like? (ditto)

What haven’t you got? Have you got eyes (nose/cheeks/ears/hair/chin/neck)? Where does your hair stop? What’s next to it? What do you feel when you touch here? Where do you feel it? In your fingers? Anywhere else?

Here’s a photograph of us together. Tell me what you see. Tell me what you think and feel about what you see.

Here’s a mirror. (as above).

Feel my face. Now feel where your face might be. What do you feel? What’s similar, what’s different?

It’s sad to think about isn’t it? That this chap is suffering and basically he relies on social services. Etc etc.

where did this (quote below) come from?
Quote:
Get religion if you want to – but do it on your own terms, no-one else’s.

From my head! How you read it depends on what you mean by ‘religion’. I think I mean believing that there is more to life than life; perhaps another life, another state of ‘being’ beyond death. But is that what you wanted to know?

[Anonymous]

Hi Portia.

If you’re happy with your thoughts and you don’t give other people a problem, and they don’t give you a problem, hey, what’s wrong with crazy thoughts?

What an interesting way of looking at it!  I like it.

But wait!  The man who thinks he has no face would have to be unhappy with that crazy thought for you to ask all those questions right ? (because I assume his thinking he has no face is not giving any one else a problem).   I have to admit, I might be tempted to ask a lot of things just out of curiosity.  That is a sad story and a scary state to be in.

From my head! How you read it depends on what you mean by ‘religion’. I think I mean believing that there is more to life than life; perhaps another life, another state of ‘being’ beyond death. But is that what you wanted to know?

I think what I wanted to know was how this came to mind, since I had posted about flushing out wounds as often as needed, and you had agreed about this being very important and then this statement came on the end of your advice.  I guess I was just wondering how you connected this idea with it all.

Have you decided on what you want here (as per the title of this thread)?

Still pondering

[Portia]

Hi Pondering Guest, I’m posted-out for today but wanted to come back to you.

If you’re happy with your thoughts and you don’t give other people a problem, and they don’t give you a problem, hey, what’s wrong with crazy thoughts?

What an interesting way of looking at it! I like it.

It’s strange isn’t it. I used to think that everyone thought like that. It’s only in the last few years I’ve realised we don’t necessarily even think in similar ways. And that’s what the above is about, a kind of variation on “live and let live”. If there isn’t a problem, why try to impose our views on other people or try to change their way of thinking? Of course it depends on how we define a ‘problem’! Big discussion item. Huge one.

The answer of course is all the ‘bad’ reasons we try to influence or impose on others: greed for money and/or power, destructive selfishness, irrational fear, unhealthy shame….etc etc.

The man who thinks he has no face would have to be unhappy with that crazy thought for you to ask all those questions right ?

He voluntarily attends a mental health facility so I guess he has problems that he suffers with. I say guess. Attending a mental health facility doesn’t necessarily equal suffering? He might like the company. Maybe he doesn’t see it as a problem? I went off into fantasy land with the questions of course. I just imagined back there what I might say if he was suffering. But I was just imagining. I think about it, after just that short conversation.  

(because I assume his thinking he has no face is not giving any one else a problem)

I wonder. Maybe it would if he talks about it all the time. If he tried to get a job in an office. It might give people a problem. Ha ha but would that be their problem and really they need help to see things differently? Possibly!

just out of curiosity

never just! Curiosity is great! Curiosity is playful and alive and wants to know for the sake of knowing. Curiosity is a fantastic asset. We’re told that curiosity is bad (killed the cat, mind your own business, don’t poke your nose in etc) – I wonder why? To keep things secret from inquisitive minds? Like who holds the wealth and power and why? ha ha. I love curiosity.

I guess I was just wondering how you connected this idea with it all.

Ah. Hmm. Well I was saying ‘do what you want to do’. And well, I don’t think organised religion helps people think for themselves so if you do want religion, please think for yourself. I guess religion is poking at my mind somewhere. I don’t know enough about why people are part of religious groups (I guess most are extroverts?) and it does interest me. Why do it. But maybe this isn’t the place. But I am curious as to why! But that’s not really relevant here. I could do with some reading matter.

What do I want here? That wasn’t the motivation for this thread. The motivation was to take something from the other thread and say what I thought. I guess one underlying motivation might have been that I saw a ‘fight’ starting, or I saw someone being mistreated as I thought and I wanted to step in and stop it. Daft huh? But then I got to thinking about the topic and became interested in what people do want. I think there’s an indication of some of my motivations? Thanks for the spark! P

[Portia]

Hey I just thought  all that stuff I just said about curiosity and religion? It just occurred to me that in some countries I would probably (definitely?) be imprisoned, tortured and/or killed for airing those thoughts. If you had to choose between freedom and security, which would you choose?

[Anonymous]

why try to impose our views on other people or try to change their way of thinking? Of course it depends on how we define a ‘problem’

The answer of course is all the ‘bad’ reasons we try to influence or impose on others:

See I'm thinking if I saw someone with "a problem", like thinking they have no face or believing they are the man in the moon, then I would hope that I would want to try to help the person,  not influence them for one of those "bad" reasons.  Maybe not everyone tries to influence others for "bad" reasons?  You did that, sort of, right?  Started a new thread to divert a fight? (thus having an influence on thinking by changing the subject, drawing interest, etc)???

We’re told that curiosity is bad

Have you been told this?  I don't remember being told this.  Something to be thankful for!  Whoever would say this to you?  Why for sure?  To keep you from learning, exploring, growing?  To keep secrets?  To have control over you?  Well...it seems it didn't work.  You value curiosity and seem curious enough.  So....something for you to be thankful for too!

I guess religion is poking at my mind somewhere.

I was wondering if that might be it.  And maybe many people find religion a big part of their healing?  And we were talking about healing, weren't we?

I think of organized religion (are there unorganized ones???) and faith as two different things.  The first is human made and quite fallible, subject to human behaviour (which is sometimes not so nice) and presented, adjusted and decided upon by humans.  Faith, on the other hand, I believe, is not human made, can't be corrupted and is subject to the being within which it resides but given as a gift.   I guess what I'm trying to say is that there will be good and bad in organized religions but there is only good in faith itself.  Who ever heard of bad faith?  So for me, my faith helps me heal.

I don’t know enough about why people are part of religious groups (I guess most are extroverts?) and it does interest me. Why do it. But maybe this isn’t the place. But I am curious as to why! But that’s not really relevant here.

It might be relevant if it were something you wanted to explore in order to help yourself heal.  To know why people belong to groups?  Wouldn't there be a zillion answers?  Why do you guess most are extroverts?

I saw someone being mistreated as I thought and I wanted to step in and stop it

That sounds like a kind thing to do not like a daft thing to do.
So did it work?

But then I got to thinking about the topic and became interested in what people do want.

Me too.  Do any of us even know what we want?  Maybe we do but I know I haven't actually sat down and made a list.  To guess what "most" people might want here...maybe to speak and be heard (have a voice and use it)??

It is interesting to think about and I like talking with you so thank you too for starting this thread (even and above your other motivations-heehee).

Keeping on Pondering