Divorce, Lawyers, Atty Fees

[dogbit]

Hello,

I have just learned about this site.  I am so impressed with all the posts and find them to be so supportive!  Briefly, I am still married to a narcissist who I call Mr. Entitlement.  Filed for divorce in January 2004 finally went to court January of this year.  Am now waiting for the Judge's ruling so I'm still in limbo and still very anxious.  All my children are technically adults so the divorce was over dividing assets, thank God.  Prior to the divorce, I requested and received a temporary order of protection which was granted but then denied since there was no physical abuse and no witnesses to the rages, paranoia, and verbal attacks on both myself and my one daughter who still lives at my home.  Actually, they all would have testified on my behalf as to his increasing irrational behaviour but I was afraid at the time that by doing that, they would forever cut off any contact with their Dad.  He has since done that on his own and refuses to communicate with them since he perceives all of us to be conspiring against him.  Sad to say, I would have probably stuck it out, but,  since he was drinking himself to death and because of his increasing health issues and not telling his doctor he was drinking,  I finally sought intervention because I thought he was going to die and he went crazy because I had finally "told".   I left the house with only the clean clothes on top of the dryer and have not been able to get back in except for two times:  1) Court order and 2) having a Sheriff's Deputy accompany me allowing me ten minutes to retrieve clothing.  Moral is:  Have an exit plan if at all possible

A question I have now is about attorney fees.  Mine are $24k mainly because Mr. E would not communicate with his lawyer who at one point threatened to withdraw because of Mr. E's lack of cooperation with his own attorney, did not  show up in court for a pre-trial conference, and produce documents about where all the money is.  My attorney had to spend time asking over and over again for interrogatories and finally had to depose him to get financial information which, even after going to court, he still has not produced.  His fees are $6k.  I have a lot of confidence in my attorney who has done this for a long time and is very well respected.  His attorney is saying that stbxh should not have to pay my attorney fees in part or in full becuase they are just too high.  Anyone have something like this happen to them?  I also am in a State that is 50/50 although equitable.  Thanks for any sharing and will continue to read here.  God bless all us!

[Anonymous]

Your post shows that we need more than just emotional support. Victims need to learn to begin collecting documents, saving abusive phone messages and keeping contemporaneous notes at a bare minimum, when abuse starts. I am in a very similar situation with my brother. I filed to partition our real eatate holdings and he has delayed and avoided hearings the same as your soon to be ex. He was sanctioned by the judge for missing one hearing. I personally am about to sue my lovely brother for defamation, breech of contract etc etc. I am also seeking attorney's fees for his intentional delays. When one party is disrupting things they almost always have much lower fees because it is much cheaper to have his attorney say "no" than it is to have your's force him to say "yes". They know how to work the system. If you stick to your guns and follow through to the end however you will probably win if you can afford to keep going. They want to bluff and bluster and outlast other people until its just too much trouble to fight anymore. That's the secret of their success. The dirty little secret they don't want out is if you don't quit they lose. Mainly because their true colors show eventually.
  If your attorney has a good reputation and meticulously documents the  time he wasted because of your N's delays you should have a good chance of getting some of your money back, especially if the judge has gotten fed up with his antics.
  I have a question. Perhaps it should be on a new thread. My N is my brother so I am unfamiliar with sharing children with one. Why do so many men and women divorcing an N who has wrecked their lives think it is important to ensure their kids maintain a relationship with a destructive nut? Most kids, regardless of their age, in my opinion are better off with zero contact with this kind of abuse whether its their father or mother. Am I missing something?

[dogbit]

have a question. Perhaps it should be on a new thread. My N is my brother so I am unfamiliar with sharing children with one. Why do so many men and women divorcing an N who has wrecked their lives think it is important to ensure their kids maintain a relationship with a destructive nut? Most kids, regardless of their age, in my opinion are better off with zero contact with this kind of abuse whether its their father or mother. Am I missing something?

That's a very good question and I can answer it in the context that my kids are currently 21 year old twins and an older sister who just turned 23.  My concerns were that if I said my stbx was a good guy and we are just incompatible would be crazy-making for all.  They saw and heard what they saw and heard and they know who their father is.  If I followed that path, they would think I was a doormat or looney tunes!  If I remained silent about everything, I was afraid they, in their future relationships, would learn that to remain silent is the way to handle problematic relationships in their future lives.  If I totally lost it, and ranted and raved about what a bad person he was/is, then they would have felt compelled to take care of me (not even an option for me since I had to take care of a narcissistic Mom and that took quite a toll on my future interactions with any sort of commited relationship to anyone.   So I asked my therapist what to do.  And her advice was to share facts not speculation or angst or just emotional venting.   I have followed that advice not because "I" feel he deserves a relationship with his children but because I want to keep their options open for the future.  If I share the truth with them, I feel I give them the power to form their own relationship with him on their terms.   My kids all encouraged and supported me to leave him but the bottom line is that they are grieving the loss of a father and have some hope, as we all did, of retrieving a relationship with him no matter how impossible that probably will be.  I need to let them know that I will not stand in the way of that while still sharing the actual events that led to the seperation.  He was equally abusive to them and If I share the facts, I'm trying to let them know it is OK to accept the facts and still grieve.  I'm trying to hold the door open for their sake even though the prognosis is poor.  They deserve the time to work it out on their own.  

It is very different for parents of under-age kids who are involved in custody and child support issues.  Then, the scrutiny on who the better parent can be brutal.  The posturing on all parts reaches tragic proportions as I have read in many posts.  One has to be much more careful in their communication with the kids since one statement and or action no matter how innocent can influence a judge.  I find it very sad that the "better" parent has to be so defensive about their relationship with the children because whatever they say and do no matter how well-intentioned can be used against them in court.  And a narcissist can spend hours, days, months ruminating on how to make the better parent appear psychotic while the better/best parent is overwhelmed by taking care of their children, earning a living, and dealing with the legal and financial issues of bringing up their kids to be healthy and happy.  It is not fair but perhaps BB's like this one can give people advice and support to get through it.  

On a personal level, I was astounded when my kids finally told me when they reached the age of 20+/- that they didn't know how I had put up with it....And my Sister-in-law finally told me the same thing when I spoke to her recently....In my arrogance, I always thought I was putting a lid on everything.  Meaning, I could cover up everything and make our family seem normal.  In lieu of putting my kids in daycare for 10 hours a day(I had thought of leaving when they were quite young)  so I could support them and me, I chose to remain.  The jury is still out on this one.  So for the meantime, I share facts with them.  Those with under-age childen have a much harder path to take.  My heart goes out to them.  I wasn't able to take that leap especially since I had two special needs kids.  By the way, they are all doing just great now.  I am so glad I have them.

In short, the age of kids, the financial constraints, the decision as to how strong you are to deal with a difficult husband/wife all play a part in how long you persevere.  And, narcissists don't mellow with age.  Which is why some of these marriages go on so long....Early on you can deal with it....as they age, they only get worse.

Hope this answers your question to some degree.  And, I think maybe this should be a topic!  There's a combination of those with custody issues and those of us without but we still have kids who are subject to the damages of many years of tryng to cope. [/b]

[mudpuppy]

Thanks for a little enlightenment. That is a very sensible course with older kids. But like you, I wonder about young kids when there is so much risk of damage. If I was married to one of these wackos I think I would do whatever I could to keep them seperated as much as possible.
Sorry about hijacking your thread. It was supposed to be about lawyers and court.

[mudpuppy]

Incidentally in case you didn't guess the first post was from me. I just forgot to log in.

[Brigid]

I am in the middle of the divorce battle too.  He filed for divorce on 12/1/03 and we just passed our 4th pre-trial hearing on 2/16.  Our next date is 4/7.  He would have liked to settle things early on, but wouldn't provide the necessary financial documentation to make that happen.  He didn't even file his 2003 income taxes until 10/15/04.  Once he did, I found out how much more money he had made in 2003  than he had in 2001 or 02.  Based on initial documents my attorney requested, he has made even more in 2004.  He and his father are in business together and they are colluding to hide income and assets every way possible.  I have not worked outside the home for 20 years, so am dependant on him for support.  My attorney fees are racking up and I am having to use savings to pay them.  I have paid for him to go to court 4 times with no end result.  We have had to hire a forensic accountant (a wise move if you are dealing with someone who has the ability to hide income) to analyze all the financial documentation, so I have to pay his hourly fees as well.  

I try not to think about what it is costing me and look at it as an insurance policy for my future and the kids' futures.  I will make sure that each and every financial thing is spelled out in detail in the final decree or he will take advantage of the situation.  I know now that he cannot be trusted to ever do the right thing.  I have asked my attorney about having my H pay my attorney fees.  He says we can ask, but don't count on it, at least not 100%.

I hope this gives you some sense of what others of us are dealing with.  I, too, live in a marital property state.

On the other issue of the children and their N father, mine are 16 and 20.  Thankfully, their father is currently pretty checked out of their lives except for the cursory visit now and then.  I think he feels that he will easily be able to sway them back into his life when he is ready to do that.  Right now they are in the way of his social life and he can't be bothered.  He thinks he can just turn on the charm and they'll curl back into the fold.  I think they're smarter than that and they are beginning to see him as I do now that the facade has disappeared.  Time will tell, but they are doing great without him in their lives.

Brigid

[Anonymous]

My attorney fees are racking up and I am having to use savings to pay them. I have paid for him to go to court 4 times with no end result. We have had to hire a forensic accountant (a wise move if you are dealing with someone who has the ability to hide income) to analyze all the financial documentation, so I have to pay his hourly fees as well.

I try not to think about what it is costing me and look at it as an insurance policy for my future and the kids' futures. I will make sure that each and every financial thing is spelled out in detail in the final decree or he will take advantage of the situation. I know now that he cannot be trusted to ever do the right thing. I have asked my attorney about having my H pay my attorney fees. He says we can ask, but don't count on it, at least not 100%.

I hope this gives you some sense of what others of us are dealing with. I, too, live in a marital property state.

Thanks, Brigid....It's nice knowing I'm not alone.  I've thought of a forensic accountant but all the money is in IRA's which is pretty well documented and in lines of credit which are also fairly well documented.  There are some real estate assets that are "fuzzy" and a privately held hedge fund that does not jive with the numbers the fund produces to the numbers the IRA account in which it is supposed to be deposited produces.   I have to thank my attorney for spotting these irregularities because in the beginning stages of the divorce, I couldn't even remember how to start the car!  and getting out of bed was an IQ Test each morning.  But I am getting educated.  I now know what a 72t is, margin accounts, lines of credit, etc.  My attorney did mention that we may have to appeal the terms of the divorce settlement and at that point, we may have to have an accountant come in.  She also told me that she could not guarantee a 100% repayment on my fees to her.  She also, God bless her, has let my account go basically unpaid to the tune of $24K so she must have some optimism I am going to get a fair shake out of this.  She's a very competent, fair, and respected attorney and has been doing this for a long time and has never promised me anything other than half.   Which is all I ever asked for but Mr. Entitlement has different ideas!  Now, for just a little black humour here, since he is living across the street from me, everytime I hear the ambulance siren, I find myself hopeful!  sorry....just venting...

[dogbit]

But like you, I wonder about young kids when there is so much risk of damage. If I was married to one of these wackos I think I would do whatever I could to keep them seperated as much as possible.

Excellent point.  My husband was never home and when he was he absented himself by drinking and going to bed by 7PM or so.  I was basically a single parent and thought he had little affect/influence on them.  But as they became much older, I found that they felt they had no father since, even though he was home every night, he was unavailable.  I think now that considering the alternative of 10 hours of day care so I could go to work to support them, I chose the lesser of two evils.  They're all doing well now...some emotional baggage but nothing I don't think can be ultra-damaging to them in their future lives.  Now, if he came home raging, verbally or physically abusive, or just plain acting crazy, I would have been out of there in a heart beat.  I guess it's all a matter of degree.  Sad to say, I was glad he drank....meant he went to bed earlier.  And I could be the parent in the family.  Meaning, I didn't have to spend time and energy keeping him happy instead of attending to my kids.  Gosh, this sounds so sad in retrospect but at the time it seemed to be a plan.

[Meadow-11]

I agree that children should not be exposed to someones poisoning behaviour.  I am going through a highly conflictual divorce.  I have three children ages 8 (almost 9), 14 and 17.  The youngest is a girl, and my two older ones are boys.  My middle child does not live with me.  His father enticed him to live with him with expensive toys such as his own computer and video systems and games.  Also, my middle son shared with me that his dad is lonely and needs him to be with him.    Where I live the  Judges in general do not understand or know about Parental Alienation Syndrome and my ex continuely brings the children into the middle and uses them as pawns.  In a conversation with my lawyer last week he shared that if I go ahead with a Bi-lateral assessment he must warn me that they can back fire and that one of his  cases the judge awarded full custody to the parent that was NOT alienating.  
A year and half later the child who turned 13 jumped the bus and went to the parent who was continueing to poison the children against the other parent.  Because of her age no one could force her to come back home.  The parent who was NOT alienating still is in debt with a 40 thousand legal bill and the Alienating Parent was able to get the eldest child anyway.  N's don't give up.  I know mine is very clever and I think has a high IQ and seems to know how to beat the system.  I have lived a life of horror in the abuse and even though we separated a year ago nothing financially has been settled because he continues to partake in crazy-making and using the legal system as a joke.  I would love to see his lawyer fire him.  But I do not know if they do that here.  Mean while I come here and read and try to gather strength.  
Thank you for listening.......for now I need to recover from the effects of living in abuse before I have the strength to move forward.  This limbo state is actually healing.  I am having time to process and sift and sort as to what is true and what I have lived in.  
Meadow

[miaxo]

dogbit,

If you are able to get your attorney fees paid for please let me know what your strategy was in doing so.  

I know in my County the judges are not likely to award that to either side.  I asked for it and it was clear that X N had lied in his orignial motions but still I had to pay my own fees.  From August 2004 to present I have paid over 4500.00 and I am waiting on the last bill which will be costly because my attorney had to go to court for a few hours.

It is really a shame that Judges don't crack down on this more.  I feel it would help deter people from filing and trying to use the courts as weapons which my X N is notorious for doing.

mudpuppy,
The courts aren't willing to terminate a parent's right to see his/her children. Moms like me have to be so very careful in HOW we present our case against N since courts are labeling negative comments against the noncustodial parent as PAS (parent alienation syndrome).  

 I do document EVERYTHING and and I do WORRY so much when they are with him but I don't have a choice in the matter. At this moment I am awaiting their return from their weekend visitation.  Not only do I worry but my entire family worries when the kids are with him...especially my Mom who is the most devoted G-Mom anyone would want to meet.  My attorney has advised me that SOLE custody doesn't come easy and that I have a long road ahead of me.  PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE comes to mind in my mission to eventually get SOLE custody. I pray this will happen sooner rather than later.  

All I can do in the meantime is provide a safe, loving, and nurturing home for my children.  I don't speak negatively against their Dad to them but I will tell them when something he says or does is inappropriate.  I want them to know what *normal* is and I think they know already.
My house is home for them while Dad's house is a pit stop or a place they visit from time to time.

Mia

[mum]

Meadow: Welcome.  You are with friends here.  I am in a similar situation and know people who are in ones much more like yours.  It is hard.  It can change. My ex won in his bid to prevent me from moving with my children, even though he is frequently out of the country for 6-9 months at a time (with little visits in between).
We had been divorced for 8 years and he is remarried.  
My children are mostly with me, and do great when he is not around, but when he is, he is very possessive of his time with them and they admit to being afraid of him, feeling sorry for him, whatever he happens to be manipulating them with at the time.  Add to that, the fact that however flawed, he is their father.
I was very afraid throughout the trial.  I met a former colleague who was accused by her scumbag lawyer ex of PAS (the syndrome of which you speak). She was devestated.  Her story scared the hell out of me, as did the multitude of others you can read about all the time.
I visited the website thelizlibrary.org frequently.  There is a lot of information on this horrible state of things for custodial mothers....it was informative, and I do recommend it (to my lawyer!) but after a while, I realized that it kept my focus on what was negative and going wrong.

I am actually thankful I lost my case, because I HAD to figure out why things kept going "wrong" for me in my life.  I came to realize I created it.  First by marrying him and having kids with him, second by staying scared of him and most importantly, by focusing on how "awful" HE made things for me.  I had to change some core beliefs about myself first(I was not worthy, pain is BAD, I have to give it all away to be a good person).

It was a long hard road, and still is, but I am happy on this road.  I know how to let go of that negative/scary stuff and focus on what I want.  I know I am creating it every moment.  He will not change.  I have,  and continue to.  He does not have power over me.  I have power.  I chose to stay with my kids. I did that. I choose to be happy no matter what.  I choose to be the light for my children. He doesn't get to tell me how to feel.

Since I have changed, my children are much happier with me at my home.  They want to be around the happy parent, the one who isn't miserable.  The one who can find happiness no matter what the circumstances.  They need to learn that somewhere.  N's want us to take their pain.  They get very upset when we don't and they have to deal with it.  When they get us upset, it alleviates some of their pain for them.
THIS for me is the hardest.  He could drop off the face of the earth for all I care, but he USES our children to punish me.  I understand easily, how not caring about what he does removes his power....but I have to care what he does to my kids!!!  Thus, we are stuck with these parasites forever.  But it doesn't have to be bleak.  If you can find ways to see what is good, and learn from/laugh at what isn't...you can heal.
This message board has been such a place for me quite frequently.

Seek ways to find happiness within.  You will then be able to create what you want out of life , instead of focusing on what you don't want. You get what you focus on, or thoughts become things.  Operative concept for me, was how to embrace and subsequently let go of  the negative without squashing, denying or ignoring it.  Ask for help form people, from the universe/god.  You will get it.
I have been right where you are, lots of us have.  It can be done.
I wish you light.

[dogbit]

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:53 pm    Post subject:    

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dogbit,

If you are able to get your attorney fees paid for please let me know what your strategy was in doing so.

I think I already know what the strategy will be and I think I talked about it in an earlier post.  My attorney is $200/hr and I believe his is $175/hr.  I never call my attorney unless I have a very specific question and only when absolutely necessary.  So the fees for her have been mostly to try to dredge information out of my husband which is still not forthcoming even though we have gone to court.  The fact that his fees are 1/4 of mine shows how much time we have spent just trying to find out where the money is but it also demonstrates how little he has responded to his own attorney.  I suspect that this will be a factor in reimbursing me for my fees but the bottom line, is that everything will be split 50/50 so his procrastination is costing us both money.  Apparently, it is worth it to him.  I'll try to let you know on this same thread.  Take care

[mudpuppy]

To Mia,
I sympathize with the plight of all parents like you who are trying to protect their kids in the screwed up judicial system. However I was mainly addressing the posts I've seen from people who actually seem to want their kids to continue contact with an N parent because they seem to think complete seperation would be more harmful than letting the kids around a damaging nut. It seems kind of like a vicarious Stockholm Syndrome. Or maybe their N just isn't as bad as some others. All I know is my daughter isn't getting within a country mile of my brother as long as I have anything to say about it.