A question about gentics and Narcissism

[mattiedread]

On this website the creator has posted "A Note About Narcissism and Genetics" in which he states:

"The only study I am aware of that examined genetics and narcissism suggested that 64% of the variation was accounted for by genetics (Livesley WJ, Jang KL, Jackson DN and Vernon PA, Am J Psychiatry 1993 150(12):1826-1831). "

The entire note is posted here:
http://www.voicelessness.com/narcissismgenetics.html

Taking this 'suggested statistic' one step further (possibly incorrectly), one might assume that 64% of the children of N's turn out to be Ns. (I'm making many unsubstantial assumptions here, but, for reasons that are pertinent to this post/me).

I'm curious if anyone else on this board has had a similar experience to mine which mirrors this statistic/assumption. I have two siblings (3 children in the family), both of whom are Ns. Our mother is also an N; to the Nth degree. I am not narcissistic (although not without certain behaviors that seem to be common amongst those who are raised in an N environment).

I've read dozens of threads on this board and others over the past two years and very few of them even allude to this phenomenon. Moreover, I've yet to find one specific to this topic. (If someone knows of one, please point it out).

I'm quite curious as to the nature of your experiences if you grew up in this type of environment where the parent(s) and a sibling or two were N's.

I'd like to compare notes. I'd also like to create a discussion about the above linked passage on N and genetics... how did your family's Nacissism evolve? Did outside people who frequented the environment (such as a sibling's spouse) ignore, participate, acknowledge etc.

Anyone who has shared a similar environment, please reply. In my life, I've met one other person (while on vacation) who shared this environment. She had a mother and a brother who were both N's and the similarities between our 'nurturing' was shockingly similar.

Thanks,
Mattiedread

[Anonymous]

Hi Mattiedread:

This seems true in my family.  I have two siblings who act n-like.   So did my father.  I remember, as a child, really feeling like I must have been adopted and they just wouldn't tell me.  I remember asking my mother, many times, if I was adopted, but she always said that I wasn't.  I felt so weird, like I didn't belong at all.

Now, as an adult, I realize, I don't belong because I do think differently, and act differently.  I don't relate to the cruel way they behave.  I don't feel the overwhelming jealously that they have expressed.  I don't lie (at least I try my hardest not to), and I don't belittle or degrade others.  I see so much in the way they are that is not the way I am that I really feel like we could be from different families.

I know my siblings suffered abuse in childhood too but I've always thought that it must be genetics that causes some people to behave like their abusers and others to go the opposite way.  Maybe so?  Maybe not?

GFN

[catlover]

Hi Mattiedread,

I think you have some interesting questions, but first I want to point out that saying "64% of N is due to genetics" is not at all the same as saying "2/3 of N offspring will be Ns."  Instead, it is saying that for a given N individual, on average their N traits will be 64% "caused" by genetics and 36% "caused" by environment.  Now, if you were to say that "if one parent is an N, then the offspring will have a 64% chance of being Ns," THAT would be the same as saying "2/3 of N offspring will be Ns," but that's not what was said.

Anyways, I think it's kind of silly to say something is "64% caused by genetics," because, as Dr. Grossman points out, genetic traits often require environmental "triggers" to express themselves.  So if someone has the genetic trait but no trigger, they won't express the trait.... So how much is really "caused" by the trigger and how much by genetics?  You might say it was 100% the trigger because the traits wouldn't have expressed themselves if it weren't for the trigger...

It seems to me that being raised by an N might create N children because my understanding is that N is created by extremely poor parenting, which leads to the extreme insecurity of Ns.  On the other hand, being raised by an N also has the tendency to make one hypersensitive to others' feelings and dismissive of one's own, because that's one way to adapt to living with the N.  And, that's sort of the "opposite" of being an N.  (And it's how I turned out.)

It is also possible that someone is not an N, but has some of the outward appearance of being one because they have taken on some of the "beliefs" of the N, such as that "other people are not as "special" as us."  

My Nmother's history included frequent verbal, physical and sexual abuse from relatives.  It's pretty darn clear to me this abuse was a huge factor in her becoming an N.  

I have two much younger brothers who I don't think are Ns but definitely exhibit some N traits.  Since they are teenagers, however, it's hard to tell if their inconsiderateness is due to age or N.

Another possibility is that siblings who might appear to be N's in part because they "take the N's side" are still in massive denial about how they were parented, and must fight vigorously against anything which threatens their wall of denial.  I sometimes wonder if my brothers fit into this category (though they had it much easier than I did).

Well, thanks for the topic.  I'm interested in hearing what other people have to say about it.

[Brigid]

Mattiedread,
I am so new to all of this that I'm not sure I know enough to give you the information you seek, but I can give you some observations.

My N husband was raised by what I think is a very N father (as you said, to the nth degree).  His father is 86 and still very much involved in the business he started 46 years ago.  My husband works with him because neither of them can work for other people effectively.  My H has 3 siblings--1 sister and 2 brothers.  His oldest brother has never married, or had any relationships that I'm aware of in his 59 years of life.  He has a law degree, but chooses not to work and spends his life travelling, having fun and collecting a check from dad every month.  He seems to not be able to attach to anyone or anything.  The other 2 sibs would not appear to me to be NPD, but his sister certainly has some dysfunctional behavior.  Their dad was a serious alcoholic, so its hard to know where the dysfunctions come from.

I also think my father was an N.  I am definitely not an N (I have more empathy than is probably healthy), but do have characteristics of a child raised by one.  I have one sibling, a brother 10 years younger, who, like my oldest brother-in-law, has never married (he is 44) and has only had one relationship that I am aware of when he was 20.  We have no relationship with each other.  Both of my parents have passed away, but there were many years when I did not speak with either of them--especially my father.  He was also an alcoholic.

I have one child who is a birth child and the other is adopted.  My son is very much like me in personality so I don't think he has inherited the N traits, but its hard to know how much nurture is involved.  My H was never angry or mean so the kids did not have that to deal with like I did with my father.

I hope this provides some perspective.

Brigid

[mattiedread]

I should have just asked if anyone else grew up in that type of environment. I completely understand the assumptions I made. My interest is, of course, in finding people with similar experiences.

I too show exact opposite traits to my N family (espcially the honesty part, pre-meditated lying is extremely difficult for me even when the consequences are great... "Have you been drinking?"
"Yes."
"Step outside"

As far as GFNs reply is concerned, I too always had this 'adoptive feeling' where I knew I didn't fit in.

[Anonymous]

I think your topic is a good one Mattiedread.  I really believe some traits are inborn and no matter what environment the person grows up in, those traits will be obvious (possibly enhanced but never removed).
If a person really has a personality disorder, such as NPD, then that disorder might have a cause that includes some genetics?  Maybe certain traits are passed on in generations?

Two children can be taught that it is wrong to lie.  They can be coaxed to tell the truth and explanations given to them about why it is so important to be honest.  They can be made aware of the damage a lie can cause.  They can be encouraged to tell the truth and rewarded for it.  One grows up basically honest and has a tough time telling a lie.  The other, lies constantly, without showing signs of remorse, or seeming to understand or accept the consequences, even when caught in the act, throughout childhood, and on into adulthood.

The opposite is also true.  Two children can grow up in a place where there are great attempts to teach the children to lie.  It is the accepted thing to do.  Specific situations are always dealt with by lying and there is a great frequency of people lying.  One of the children becomes a profuse liar, on and into adulthood, while the other develops a great distaste for lying and is basically honest.

I know these situations to be true.

What causes this?  It must be something unchangable in the child?  The lying has not been encouraged in the environment but it continues anyway.  Why?  Where's the trigger?  The lying is accepted, in the other environment, but one child rejects it?  What for?  It's easier to go with the flow isn't it?  Why fight it?  What makes a person honest?

I think some people might be born with certain n tendancies and those can be made worse, but not eliminated, even with the correct treatment.
Physical traits are genetic.  So why not some of these other traits?

GFN