Responding to abuse

[Bliz]

I have fallen into that trap also>  That you are responsible for your own feelings, as far as your reaction to abuse.  I think in some ways it is a bunch of hooey.  There seems to be validity in the extent of your reaction  as far as how bad you allow yourself to feel after someone has abused you.  My opinion only.  

I think on one level I always know it is them and their stuff but still the whole experience is not pleasant.  I did feel empowered the last time my Narbro raged at me about how the work was divided.  I raged back and I will tell you it felt good.  Things really did change after that as far as the work assignments.  Now he is letting us work it out ourselves, which is a far better solution.  That doesnt mean he will never rage again but in that instance, standing up, worked.

It is so difficult to not feel bad though even when you are standing up for yourself.  I didnt feel bad this time and cant even tell you exactly why. Maybe because I got many things out that had been building for some time.  

AS woman, and I dont mean to single us out or make any male pain less valid, I think we are conditioned to make nice and not respond, even to abuse.  WE are somewhat trained to lose our voices. I look at the emotions of small children and it is so pure, healthy and simple.  You are upset you cry and you really get into it. Head onto hands, pouting in a corner, throwing yourself on the ground, whatever.  Then it is over and sometmes they are laughing hysterically in no time at all.  

"Depression is the damning of the river of emotions." Gosh, if we could only get back to the free rein of a childs emotions, I think we would all feel a ton better and be healthier.  Of course that is not always appropriate but it seems so healthy and easy.

Many of us, including myself, do take the abuse so personally and keep thinking we are doing somerthing to cause it.  I am thinking that now about the other thread and the money.  I suppose our only path to freedom is trying to continue to vent, emote, feel, heal, as we try to find new ways to live our lives.  Sometimes I wonder when the heck will I figure it all out?  On my deathbed?

[Lara]

Hi Everyone,
What an interesting thread this is! A couple of things in your latest post here, Daylily, particularly struck me. (And forgive me for using my own antiquated method of quoting!)

First, when you wrote:
'I don't think most abuse is about wanting to make the object feel something bad but about the subject wanting to feel something good,'

If you are right Daylily, that might explain why my ex continues to send me loving/nostalgic messages, every 2 or 3 months on average. The latest one came by post a week ago, asking me if I remembered a particularly happy day we had spent together.(Of course I didn't reply.) I had been wondering what the rationale was behind this, and doing what Longtire has mentioned.ie doubting if our r/ship was abusive or if it was 'just me.' If abuse can be about the abuser wanting to feel sth good, my ex could be sending these apparently warm thoughts in order to do that.Sort of 'Remember how happy I made you?' I don't know.

Second, when you wrote that the abuser sometimes seems :
'almost incapable of really grasping that they have a choice'
it reminded me of a time when I was in so much pain that I plucked up my courage and asked my ex to change an aspect of his behaviour that was really hurting me. After I had told him what I felt, he looked at me, smiled and said, 'You really feel that don't you?Your face is red and you are breathing very fast!' So instead of responding to my request, it was as if he was making a scientific observation.

I'm really glad you're here Daylily. This place is so helpful.

Happy Saturday everyone,
Sincerely,
Lara.

[longtire]

So much good stuff....

"Depression is the damning of the river of emotions." Gosh, if we could only get back to the free rein of a childs emotions, I think we would all feel a ton better and be healthier. Of course that is not always appropriate but it seems so healthy and easy.

This is a great description of depression.  It is my goal too, to get back to feeling things like a child or at least like I have in the past.  I think the fear is that we will react like children from those feelings, but I don't think so.  The more in touch and the more I really feel and acknowledge my feelings, the less pressure I feel to react.  Then I can pause and decide what I want and choose how to respond to the feelings.  In any case, the first step is to be aware of the feelings, which has been difficult for me in the past because my river was self-dammed (or damned?).

For me, there's a third hand:  One of the consequences of long-term psychological abuse is that it can become internalized.  And as you start to recognize the abuse, being a logical adult who wants a certain amount of self-determination, you also realize that "nobody can force me to feel anything."  So you conclude that it has to be your fault, that you are somehow defective in not being stronger, in allowing the abusive behavior to penetrate.  Dr. Phil (yes, I read one of his books) wrote that one of the fundamental truths of life is that we teach people how to treat us.  I would say that, over time, abusers teach us how to treat ourselves.  And in this culture of self-empowerment, where everything is a choice, the feeling that somehow you've surrendered your power can induce a whole lot of guilt and confusion.

One of the problems of recovering from, or disengaging from, an abusive relationship is that distorted view of reality.  You have to question everything, you have to be willing to stop yourself all the time and say, "But is this really true?"  One of the incredibly interesting and valuable things about your long thread, Longtire, is that it documents that regaining of trust in your own perceptions.

Yes, I have had all of this in spades.  I never used to question myself the way I do now.  I just went with my feelings, right or wrong.  Certainly I had a weakness from my parents of weak self-esteem.  My wife took that and very slowly pried that gap wider and wider without my awareness until something broke.  Now that break and gap are healing, and I expect it all to be stronger than it ever was before.  It is just painful in the middle of the healing process.

I honestly don't believe abusers can be "educated" or "helped" out of abuse--mostly because they don't see the objects of their abuse as full human beings, capable of a worthwhile opinion or reaction.  I have to say that I don't think most abuse is about wanting to make the object feel something bad (pain, shame, etc.), but about the subject wanting to feel something good (power, superiority, etc.).  The abuser does it because it fulfills a need that is stronger than the desire for a normal two-way relationship.  Abusers prey on the weaknesses of their victims because it gives them something to fill the cracks in their own self-images.  I turn you into sand, and use the mortar to patch myself.  Therefore, I have to say I think the whole idea of staying in an abusive relationship because you think you can change the individual is...sadly mistaken.

Good point about the abuser really wanting to feel better rather than make others feel worse.  I do see that in abuse or control, though.  These people control and feel better about themselves by making others feel worse.  That is in contrast to feeling their unpleasant feelings and working to grow in those areas so they don't feel that bad any longer.  In the end an abuser does use the target and does end up projecting their negative stuff on the target so they don't have to be aware of it or ever deal with it.

Disengaging is not weakness.  It all depends, I think, on whether you see something attractive enough in the "core" of your abuser to make you want to stay, and whether you think that elements will ever be accessible enough to tip the balance of the abuser's behavior toward healthy--or, at the least, leaving you alone.  Personally, I think all you can do is disengage.  The real choice lies in determining how muchdistance to put between yourself and your abuser.  States?  Continents?  The width of a bedframe?  It all depends on what you think the response will be when you finally say, "I value myself too highly to allow you to treat me this way.  I want you in my life only if you will see me as I am and treat me with respect."  Sometimes I think most abusers are incapable of really grasping that last part--that they have a choice, too.  Abusers are so often desperately afraid of abandonment and feel more or less driven to do what they do.  It's really a sad dynamic.

I like your scale for distance:  states, continents. I know right now that being in the same house with my wife is too close.  I think across town will be OK, but I'll find out shortly.  I agree it is a sad situation.  None of this needed to happen to get my attention.  She had that from me, but I realize in hindsight that she couldn't tell it.  She is like an emotionally blind person, and can't tell whether I am 12 inches or 12 miles away.  Since she can't see me, she blames me for not being in view.  She was never out to hurt me, she literally didn't know when I was there or not.  When my response didn't have the desired "effect" on her because it couldn't get through the blindness, she blamed me for not having any feelings, being too distant, being too angry, being emotionally broken in some way she could never describe, etc.  It was never actually about me, she would have to see and hear me first for that to be the case.  It was always about how she felt and she didn't realize that it was her.  (Neither did I.)  That makes perfect sense taking into account her relationship with her mother growing up.

I've rambled on far too long, I know, but I just want to say one final thing on the issue of "warning" other people.  It depends.  You have a daughter, and I think you have a responsibility to try to get your daughter to understand what you've learned about her mother.  That's so very hard to do without seeming mean or bitter.  And don't ask me how it's done; I have no idea.  I think just being there to comfort her when the inevitable hurt happens is a big part of it.  I don't know if your wife has transferred any of her abuse to your daughter, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if she did.

I try to educate my daughter to stand up for herself and teach her healthy ways to do that.  I never mention my wife's behavior directly to her.  I agree with others here that she has her own relationship to her mother and it is up to her to decide how that goes.  I will just make sure she is able to take care of herself, with her mother and with others.

Very interesting discussion, Longtire.  Sorry for the length of this reply; I just feel pretty strongly about some of these issues and have thought about them at length.

Obviously.

[Brigid]

There is so much to digest and respond to about this discussion, that I'm not sure where to start.

I guess I will previce by saying that if it were not for my therapist explaining to me what I was dealing with in my husband, I probably would never have been able to come to that conclusion on my own.  Right up until the day he left, I was still under the impression that the facade he portrayed was the real guy and so much of why he was leaving was my fault.  I would have continued to justify his behaviors and think that we could work together to save our marriage and eventually things would be fine.  His n behavior was hidden by his charm and his manipulation of me very insidious.  I almost would have preferred someone like my first n husband who was outwardly controlling and nasty like my father, because then you have a sense of what you are up against.  Even though you lose so much of yourself dealing with all that negativity and anger, you can see (or at least I could) that it was not a healthy relationship and one I needed to remove myself from.



Daylily wrote:

One of the consequences of long-term psychological abuse is that it can become internalized. And as you start to recognize the abuse, being a logical adult who wants a certain amount of self-determination, you also realize that "nobody can force me to feel anything." So you conclude that it has to be your fault, that you are somehow defective in not being stronger, in allowing the abusive behavior to penetrate. Dr. Phil (yes, I read one of his books) wrote that one of the fundamental truths of life is that we teach people how to treat us.

I totally agree with this.  And I think my H understood this about me.  He learned how to live his life the way he wanted, and as long as I stayed blind to it, he could continue doing whatever he wanted to do.  He saw the blind faith and trust I had and totally took advantage of that.  I taught him that I accepted his lies as truths and never questioned anything.  However, I think that as his hidden behaviors escalated, even he couldn't continue living that lie anymore and had to run away.

Bliz wrote:

Many of us, including myself, do take the abuse so personally and keep thinking we are doing somerthing to cause it. I am thinking that now about the other thread and the money. I suppose our only path to freedom is trying to continue to vent, emote, feel, heal, as we try to find new ways to live our lives.

I also agree with this.  I do take the abuse personally.  But the hardest part is that I did not see it as abuse.  I saw it as what I deserved.  That I wasn't good enough to have a full, complete, equal relationship.  I must always settle for just scraps of love because I was not worthy of anything more.  That is the message that is buried deep.  That is what needs to heal so that I do not allow another incomplete relationship to exist in my romantic life or even in my world of friends, for that matter.  I don't need one-sided relationships anymore.  They are too draining and cause pieces of me to keep falling off.

I do not have any of the abusers left in my life anymore.  They are all gone now and I am starting with a clean slate.  How I move forward will be the test of the value of my many hours of therapy and the many hours of reflection and introspection.  Being able to trust myself and my judgments of others I allow into my life will be my biggest challenge.  A lot of that must come from the deeper faith I have developed during this time and the unconditional love I have allowed myself to feel from God.  All good things I think and beliefs that will see me through this next phase of my life.

Brigid

[dogbit]

I've rambled on far too long, I know, but I just want to say one final thing on the issue of "warning" other people. It depends. You have a daughter, and I think you have a responsibility to try to get your daughter to understand what you've learned about her mother. That's so very hard to do without seeming mean or bitter. And don't ask me how it's done; I have no idea. I think just being there to comfort her when the inevitable hurt happens is a big part of it. I don't know if your wife has transferred any of her abuse to your daughter, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if she did.

If this is helpful or not...I talked to my T about what to say to my kids and she suggested just stating facts about the abuse is not the same as "bad-mouthing" the abuser.  Facts meaning if he hits you and you are crying then you can say I'm crying because I've been hit.  An extreme example, granted, but succinct.  I think kids really know who their parents are but may not have the language or the maturity to articulate it but they KNOW.  The crazy-making is when you might say you are crying just because you feel down that day and then the kids might think it's their fault.

[vunil as guest]

Helpful thread...

Something in the last few posts made me think of another wrinkle in all this, one that has been really a big part of my growth the last couple of months.  I'm not sure I can properly articulate it, but it's something like this:  I think if you grew up with abuse and/or personality disorders (I had N parents, and my mom and sister were also borderline), then you gather people around you who are abusive and/or nutty in some profound ways.  So, suppose one of them starts acting badly toward you, such as your boyfriend.  Now, you start to wonder what is up, if you are wrong to be so upset, if he is really being mean to you, etc.

Ok, so you go to your friends and tell them all about it and your friends... tell you it is all your fault, you are being too sensitive, he is a great catch, no relationships are perfect, etc.  So then your fears are confirmed, you say "I knew it!" and go back to him.  I actually had a friend tell me, when my boyfriend was an hour and a half late for my birthday party (he was supposed to have shown up early to help get ready and bring supplies) that I should be careful not to be angry with him, because she herself was often late and part of why she was so late was that it made her angry to think of the person waiting for her having expectations of her!  She said it wasn't fair for me to expect anything of him-- he was his own person.  Two of my other friends said "good point!"  Which to their crazy little minds it was, I guess.

I stayed confused for years because I chose friends (and attracted friends) who were as broken as I was...  they talked me into staying with the worst men you could imagine.

Yipes!  Thank heavens for therapy.  It helped me realize what good feedback looks like, and also when I saw the therapists' reactions to my friends' comments, it gave me some perspective.  It also helped me listen to my own little voice, quiet as she was for so long.

Lately I have been severely pruning my friendships, and spending a lot of effort nurturing relationships with well-adjusted people with great relationships, and trying to end relationships with borderlines (who seem to be attractive to me, lucky me) and narcissists.  The irony is the latter groups cling much harder to the friendships and won't let me go.  Trying to shake a borderline friend is truly a nightmare.  But I am really enjoying my "role model" friends and their sane advice and perspectives.

Including you guys

Sorry, this was long-winded.  But it is a piece of the puzzle, I think.

[Stormchild Guesting]

I actually had a friend tell me, when my boyfriend was an hour and a half late for my birthday party (he was supposed to have shown up early to help get ready and bring supplies) that I should be careful not to be angry with him, because she herself was often late and part of why she was so late was that it made her angry to think of the person waiting for her having expectations of her!  She said it wasn't fair for me to expect anything of him-- he was his own person.  Two of my other friends said "good point!"  Which to their crazy little minds it was, I guess.

Good Lord Vunil! These b****es actually retaliate in advance of an event they are imagining will happen in the future -- as a direct consequence of their own offensive behavior in the present!

Borderlines, hell. This is so far over the border it's speaking another language and needs a passport.    

[vunil as guest]

Storm, you are so funny!

I am reading "walking on eggshells" now, finally, and boy is it helpful.  Longtire, did you ever read it?  Your wife might have some of those traits, too (I can't say for sure).  She does seem to have trouble with cause and effect (e.g., spend all the money, have no money).

I need to read the "letting people go" thread, though, because the most borderline folks are the least able to let go of a friendship.  Yesterday one of them called me and regaled me with her latest crazy idea (she wants to have expensive elective medical treatment but can't hold down a job and has no medical insurance or way to pay for it-- what do I think she should do?  I said don't have the treatment.  She yelled at me that I didn't understand-- she WANTS to have it!  Keep in mind it is completely elective.).  This voice inside of me yelled "this is utter bullshit.  Get off the phone with this woman."  And eventually I did.

But the point is,  I didn't for a long time before, do years before.

Luckily I do have normal friends, and now I am appreciating them more.  I can't believe I took advice from these nutty people!  Cringe-worthy     Embarrassing    

It definitely kept me thinking that abuse was my fault.  After all, they told me so...

[Stormchild Guesting]

Luckily I do have normal friends, and now I am appreciating them more.  I can't believe I took advice from these nutty people!  Cringe-worthy     Embarrassing    

It definitely kept me thinking that abuse was my fault.  After all, they told me so...

Hey Vunil... nothing embarrassing or cringeworthy here. Do you know how hard it is to overcome denial about this stuff? Yes you do. Do you know how terrifying it is to realize that now that you know what kind of behavior is wrong and hurtful to accept you have no idea how to reject it and seek out positive helpful behavior instead? Yes you do. Did you get past that and manage to start finding positive helpful people? Yes you did.

You're way ahead of me in that department. I've managed to get most of the hurters and nutters out of my life one way or another, and I'm putting up interior walls between myself and the ones I can't simply be rid of, using a lot of helpful info from folks here. But somehow, good  people ain't exactly been pouring into my life to fill the vacuum.

My hat's off to you for getting some of that good stuff, in realspace. Or would be, if I was wearing a hat

[bunny]

Yesterday one of them called me and regaled me with her latest crazy idea (she wants to have expensive elective medical treatment but can't hold down a job and has no medical insurance or way to pay for it-- what do I think she should do?  I said don't have the treatment.  She yelled at me that I didn't understand-- she WANTS to have it!  Keep in mind it is completely elective.).  This voice inside of me yelled "this is utter bullshit.  Get off the phone with this woman."  And eventually I did.

You're on the right track!    Borderlines need limits set for them. Of course they hate it, but that's tough. The only things you can do even more effectively are to get off the phone the instant she yells at you (showing her it's unacceptable). If no yelling occurs, end the conversation after about two minutes. Don't worry, she'll find someone else to call. Talking to her about her surgery or anything else is a total waste of time. So you were right-on to say, "don't have the treatment." That was perfect!

bunny

[longtire]

Hi sister vunil!  Don't even think about putting yourself down in any way because of the behavior of these people. I think that you, like me, need to trust your own experience and your own judgements, thoughts, feelings, etc. rather than other peoples'.  No problem checking things out with other people, just make sure they are the right kind of caring other people.  It sounds like you are doing a great job of clearing the uncaring people out of your life.  Congratulations!

I also think that like me, you grew up with a damaged map of relationships that makes trusting our own stuff not a reflex.  We have to work at remembering and trusting our whispered true inner feelings.  Our true feelings, without the loads of crap that other people dumped on us throughout life.  The only thing I've found that works for me is to not only allow my feelings but welcome them in, give them more space than they can fill and wait until I am accepting and peaceful about them.  Then, it is usually obvious whether they are really my feelings or someone else's.  Then I can decide what I want and what I'm going to do to get what I want based on my feelings.  You know, it works, but it is hard work and I have to really take care of myself so that I can do this on a regular basis.

vunil, I am reading SWOE now.  I took a week off to concentrate on my own stuff.  I'm continuing to read it today.  I used to read these books to figure my wife out.  Now, I read them to find better ways to deal with her.  I have slowly come to believe that she is more BP than NP from what I have read so far.

[Lara]

I agree with you Longtire. We should trust our own feelings, and TRY not to over-ride the little voice of truth that speaks to us even as we are being brainwashed by manipulative people.
 I know that when I was getting more and more deeply involved with my ex, my rational mind was trying to tell me that something fishy was going on, but time and again I discounted it.

Sincerely,
Lara.

[vunil as guest]

thanks everyone!  Longtire, I started a thread about this so maybe it doesn't go here, but you said

I have slowly come to believe that she is more BP than NP from what I have read so far.

and I do know that something in a previous post about her did strike me that way.  It was something to do with money and how she was angry that she spent all of her money (even though she was the one that did it) and she wanted more from you or was mad at you about it or something.  Something like that... It just reminded me of several of my friends who are really smart and well-educated and capable and just don't work full time, don't have health insurance, don't save for retirement, and then complain all the time about aspects of all of this as if it just happened upon them like the rain.  I have spent a lot of time trying to get them motivated, trying to encourage them, commiserate with them, etc.  Then years went by and nothing changed, they always seemed angry with *me* because of what I had accomplished, and in the end it all seemed so weird and unfixable.

Which is, long-windedly, a way of saying your wife reminds me a bit, in your descriptions, of that.  No cause and effect links that make sense.

[d's mom]

this is just a really interesting topic and im glad you brought it up. i really dislike it when people tell me 'nobody can hurt me' without me 'choosing it'..

its just not true.. i can choose my reactions after the fact, but if someone hurts another, they will feel hurt.

like someone said - we're not the buddha - you cant control everything with your brain. pain hurts. some scientists are finally finding that emotional pain is just as real as physical pain. people just want to deny it becuase its 'invisible'.

i favor confronting, maybe once, and if you dont get a positive result, then leave if possible.

anna

[longtire]

Anna, your post is is a very good summary of what I take from this discussion.  I would only add that we are supposed to feel the pain in those situations so that we take action (confronting, leaving, etc.) to avoid them.  The problems come in when we don't "hear" the pain messages because we are distracted/denying or we misinterpret them.