Author Topic: Language  (Read 2502 times)

October

  • Guest
Language
« on: June 04, 2005, 07:01:58 PM »
In my experience I have found that Ns do not use language the way the rest of us do.  I am not sure how well I can explain this, but using my mum as an example, when my daughter was small, my mum used to call her baby bottle a 'pipe'.  I asked if this was a Yorkshire dialect word, and she said no.  She did not know why she called it that, she just did.  So I asked in that case if she could use the same word I did, so that C would not be confused.  I don't believe in confusing children.   :)

What she does is not exagerration, quite.  It is using a word in the wrong place, with the wrong context, and pretending that it is right, when it is not.  It appears to be a deliberate distortion of words, in order to confuse or muddle or feel superior, because she understands, and nobody else does.  But this is completely contrary to the purpose of language, whether written or spoken, imo.

When I studied language we were taught that the norm is for everyone to speak the truth all the time (which came as a surprise  :) ).  If this were not the case, lies wouldn't work.   :?   The fact that lies do work means that the norm is for language to be truthful, and to convey a sense which is meaningful to the person using it.

I am not sure Ns use language in this way.  Language is a means to an end for them, rather than a vehicle for truth.  The end is superiority, and the means is whatever they can use.

I suppose what I am saying is that when I see people here using what appears to be a distorted vocabulary or presentation, it makes me suspicious. :oops:   I wonder what it is about language conventions that are not good enough, or sufficient for them.  I don't mean poetry; I mean using archaic or non standard linguistic forms for no apparent reason.   :?

But maybe it is just me.   :oops:

mum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1036
Language
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2005, 08:15:05 PM »
Well said, October. And an interesting thought.  My ex makes words up and if you are not in his little "club" of knowing the word (he does this with his sibling and his friends) he makes a mocking game out of your not knowing.  It's pretty twisted adn immature. He thinks it's funny to frustrate others.

dogbit

  • Guest
Language
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2005, 11:09:53 PM »
Is it sort of like Bill Clinton asking the question of what "is" means?  My experience with my husband was that in every conversation, he would turn it back on me or others to force us to to keep re-defining what we were asking so he never had to answer a question.

jophil

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Crazy speech
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2005, 02:07:07 AM »
My N father used speech and conversation as a way of trapping or snaring us into a position which allowed him to resort to belittling and humiliating tactics.
For example - I would enquire of him what he was trying to convey after he made a statement or a demand of us.
Me ," What do you mean?"
He (pompously)," I think that you know what I mean".
Me , "I do not understand".
He ," Yes you do , you might like to think about it a bit more in future before you speak"...... ( it often got sillier or nastier after that)

Yeah,yeah, I know how F******G crazy it sounds but that was how it was for me as a child.

Anonymous

  • Guest
Language
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2005, 02:51:35 AM »
quote from another N web site that I think is right on the money (at least w/ the N's that I know):

They don't understand the meaning of what people say and they don't grasp the meaning of the written word either -- because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words. (Discussions with narcissists can be really weird and disconcerting; they seem to think that using some of the same words means that they are following a line of conversation or reasoning. Thus, they will go off on tangents and irrelevancies, apparently in the blithe delusion that they understand what others are talking about.) And, frankly, they don't hear all the words, either. They can pay attention only to stuff that has them in it. This is not merely a bad habit -- it's a cognitive deficiency.

sleepyhead

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
Language
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2005, 03:56:11 AM »
Ahaaa!

Quote
They don't understand the meaning of what people say and they don't grasp the meaning of the written word either -- because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words.

I often wondered how my mother cold read so many books, and still not be able to even fake reacting like a normal person... I guess she just didn't get what they were saying at all... Not the subtext or the emotional content anyway.
Rip it to shreds and let it go - Garbage

wildrain

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
Language
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2005, 06:34:36 AM »
Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:09 pm    Post subject:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it sort of like Bill Clinton asking the question of what "is" means? My experience with my husband was that in every conversation, he would turn it back on me or others to force us to to keep re-defining what we were asking so he never had to answer a question.

This hit home! My N b/f never will answer a question and he will turn and loop in every direction to keep you unsure of what he is saying (then you cant rememeber what you are saying) He will keep making you repeat things because he "didnt hear what you were saying" he will NEVER remember what he said and he will lie if you put him on the spot with proof. (Or say"You didnt understand and you are "confused") When i first met him I was amused at his way of talking,now i cant even bare to get into a discussion with him because I know where it will lead He will talk for hours and never let you speak (His favorite line is "IM TALKING" as if i didnt know that! My favorite line is" He is talking and cant shut up"!))
If you get them in a corner they will just keep talking to wear you down but never once will they address what YOU said. (They are never wrong) Some of these grinding sessions have lasted all night.  ( brain washing) and if you try and escape there are threats with "If you leave you will never walk through this door again"
I also noticed that there is little understanding when others are speaking and constantly everyone is being asked to repeat  I use to think he was deaf now i know he is a classic N
wildrain
(still trying to escape and getting closer to the door)
Lotus

Cadbury

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
Language
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2005, 06:45:18 AM »
My god Wildrain - I had to read your post several times to check you weren't with my ex! Even now it amazes me when I hear other people's experiences that are exact replicas of my own. Some days I wonder if my ex had a whole string of us at one time the similarities are so striking!

I have experienced what I call a "narcissistic head f**k". It is exactly that moment where you completely lose track of the point of the conversation at all. The point where the N has twisted everything around and left you feeling totally lost and doubting your own sanity. Then when you get a grip and go back to them and say "No, hang on, what I was saying was ...." You are met with "Are we going over this AGAIN?!!". No mention of the fact that "we" didn't go over anything.

Wildrain - I don't know how long you've been a member here, but I left my ex in October and it is still going on now, so if you need to talk to someone then I am free, you can PM me or yahoo etc. I know exactly what you're going through, believe me! If I can help I will.

everyone else - I once had a discussion about the meaning of a certain word (can't remember what it was now). In the end after having an argument the size of which could only happen with an N who has been doubted, I got the dictionary out. I read out the definition (I was RIGHT!!) and he said "see, exactly what I said". I was left with my mouth hanging open in disbelief. The weird thing was he totally believed that what I had read out was what he had been saying! He had been saying the opposite! So, I suppose it could easily be an N trait. Hearing what they want to hear to fit in with their view of themselves and the world.

October

  • Guest
Language
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2005, 01:53:34 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous


 because so much of the meaning of anything we say depends on context and affect, narcissists (lacking empathy and thus lacking both context and affect) hear only the words.


I think this is getting close to the heart of the issue.  I am not sure that Ns lack affect though, I think they are stuffed full of it.  The trouble is, they have so much of their own, that there is no room for anyone else's.

I am half N/psychopath because I have blunted affect.  I deal with this (as far as it is possible to do so) by acting 'as if' (because I was not always like this, and I remember).  But it means that I focus on words, and not on the emotional connections, perhaps more than I would like to have to.  It is like being a robot sometimes.   :oops:  

I am trying to think of a way to explain what N behaviour with language is like.  It feels like someone who stuffs themselves with icecream all day, then goes to a dinner party, feeling rather sick.  No matter what is served, no matter how delicious, they are always going to feel rather sick, and not be interested in any food on the table.  They will not understand hunger in anyone else at the table, and will pretty well inevitably ruin the evening for everyone.  (It is hard to understand hunger when you are stuffed with icecream and feeling nauseous. :lol: )

Any discussion of food is likely to return very quickly to ice cream; fine for them, rather uncomfortable for everyone else.   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Anyone sensible would either not go, or else would not overeat first.  With the N, they can't help the immediate gratification part, nor can they admit that what they have done is wrong, or that other people might have an alternative perspective.

In effect, they want us either to cancel the dinner party and starve until they are better, or else to sit guiltily picking at our steak and chips, while they regale us with tales of icecream they have known, and how much better it is than anything else.

N affect is so stuffed with their own needs that there is no room for even noticing that anyone else has any needs at all, let alone any that differ from the N.  

In terms of language, there is no perception that the variant they have is not the standard one, because the centre of the universe has to contain the standard.  Anything else has to be peripheral and therefore subordinate.  So if we all say 'bottle' and they say 'pipe', we are the ones who are wrong.

As has been said, if anyone stops a conversation and starts to demand definitions of other people, communication is pretty well always going to break down.  It is a smokescreen, to deflect attention away from whatever subject it was getting close to.

So, is communication ever possible with an N?  Probably not, unless we are talking about them and their needs and wishes.   :?

But we still don't quite give up trying ...

Mati

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 121
Language
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2005, 03:04:51 PM »
My ex claims the right to use words according to his own definition of them, and will not accept mine, even if the dictionary backs me up. It is all part of his sense of entitlement and refusal to conform.

write

  • Guest
He thinks it's funny to frustrate others.
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2005, 03:37:26 PM »
He thinks it's funny to frustrate others.

that's it- the whole pattern of n-ism is to frustrate others in order to gratify self.

longtire

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 564
Language
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2005, 08:08:33 PM »
Quote from: wildrain
This hit home! My N b/f never will answer a question and he will turn and loop in every direction to keep you unsure of what he is saying (then you cant rememeber what you are saying) He will keep making you repeat things because he "didnt hear what you were saying" he will NEVER remember what he said and he will lie if you put him on the spot with proof. (Or say"You didnt understand and you are "confused")

Quote from: Cadbury
I have experienced what I call a "narcissistic head f**k". It is exactly that moment where you completely lose track of the point of the conversation at all. The point where the N has twisted everything around and left you feeling totally lost and doubting your own sanity. Then when you get a grip and go back to them and say "No, hang on, what I was saying was ...." You are met with "Are we going over this AGAIN?!!". No mention of the fact that "we" didn't go over anything.


I think I married the sister of these brothers.  :twisted:  She also makes up words that sound "similar" to the right word, and then refused to go back to using the English words.  Fortunately, I didn't translate for other people too many times  :oops: and just let her take the consequences of speaking her own language.  It is so good to post here today all the things I am not missing by being in my own house. :D
longtire

- The only thing that was ever really wrong with me was that I used to think there was something wrong with *me*.  :)

mum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1036
Language
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2005, 11:45:30 AM »
Reading these posts brought back horrible memories for me....but it's completely validating to know I am not the nutty one (always suspected I was not).
My first ex would start a rant and if I tried to respond would yell "DON'T INTERRUPT ME!!  I AM TALKING HERE!!"
I would try to explain that a conversation is an exchange of ideas and in normal ones, people pause to let the other person have a say....to which he would say: "I DIDN'T PAUSE, I TOOK A BREATH!!!!!"
I would always walk away feeling crazy, not sure what exactly this was about (except that I was afraid and better stay away or do what he says).
He also had a habit of telling me what I had done or he had told me, when in actuality, it was some other woman he did that with, or told that to.  Keep in mind, he drank a lot, too.  But he was adamant (to put it mildly) that what he remembers was FACT and I was crazy!!!! If I stood my ground, he would laugh at me and find another way to hurt me later in the day.  Also, he would tell me that my FEELINGS were WRONG.
 

It didn't fit, though, because in all my other relationships, conversations went fine, and I didn't feel crazy at all.  Nobody thought every little thing was my fault and I had healthy talks all the time.

I started realizing my second husband was another nutjob, when, during arguements, the same point was made over and over and over, as if what I said was never said at all. A lot of that "smokescreening" someone else described.   Any uncomfortable discussion (how he treated my children) ended in "F*** YOU!" and he would storm out of the house to go get drunk... oh, but at a chi-chi artist type bar, so it looked "classy".

I don't have these types of "conversations" anymore.  I just realized that. I have disagreements, and heated discussions, but nobody ignores me, or doesn't listen, and I feel on even footing with others.  What a relief!

dad knew pretty well

  • Guest
but despite that n mom turned it around on him to better..
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2005, 11:51:49 AM »
..break his spirit

how mom twisted language and thought
dad wrote as notes to himself
in order to discuss this topic of twisting language with mom

the problem often with narcissist when you
bring what u hope to be helpful insight
they take the part that builds their point
to tear down yours

uh not that we dont all do that in some ways at times perhaps
but the sheer sublime abilities of that
are truely awe inspiringly awful....