Are you Pretty?

[Brigid]

Plucky (that's you, right?),

I was hardly ever touched by my father.  My mother hugged me in my adult years when I would return home after being gone for months at a time.  Neither of them ever told me they loved me.  My x hardly ever touched me--I got the obligatory kiss hello when he came home each day, but no hugs to go with it and it carried no feeling of genuineness (is that a word?).  Like you, if it weren't for my kids, I would never get hugged.  Although, I do make a point of hugging my girlfriends whenever possible.

I actually did have an affair in my first marriage.  I was 24 years old, very unhappy in my marriage and an older, married man (he was 36--not so old to me now ) showed an interest in me.  I have never considered doing anything like that since and certainly do not recommend it as a way to get love and attention.  I have seen the devastation and destruction it caused when my x announced his affair--not just to me and the kids, but to all of his family and our friends.  It is a no win situation and relationships that start with an affair have a less than 1 percent chance of survival.  

I would recommend either trying to fix the relationship you do have, if that is possible, or end it and move on to eventually seek something more satisfying.  Both options are very difficult for all concerned, but not doing something will destroy you slowly, but surely.

I wish you well.

Brigid

[mum]

I understand your question was probably rhetorical and not specific, but:
Affairs are messy, painful and IMO a real life example of a total loss of faith.
I have one thing to be thankful for in my affair ridden marriage (besides the kids)....that I was not the one belittling and disrespecting myself and others by having the affairs.
I believe the affairs my ex had (and probably still does) simply fuel his horrible self concept at the root of his narcissism.
I would always tell someone to get out of a relationship before starting another one.  (If you think you have problems now......)

[Plucky Guest2]

Thanks Brigid,
I think you have talked me in off the ledge.  I don't have time to have an affair anyway, and look at me!  Who would take me.

Since my husband is not ready to acknowledge that we have major problems much less work on them, I have started to think about a plan to leave.

I do have major obstacles, but I'm Plucky, right?  I can find a way over them.

If anyone has advice on how to minimize the negative effect on my kids, aged 4 and 6, please come forward.

Plucky Guest2

[Plucky Guest2]

I understand your question was probably rhetorical and not specific, but:

Not really.....I mean I was just feeling out a temporary solution to my loneliness and desire to have physical contact.  But it sounds like the ugliness will much overshadow any possible benefit.

Thanks Mum for exposing the seamy underbelly of affairs.

BTW where is daylily?

[mum]

If anyone has advice on how to minimize the negative effect on my kids, aged 4 and 6, please come forward.

Have you considered marriage counseling?  It may be worth a try.  I say this without enthusiasm, as both my ex's were not the least bit interested in "working" on staying together, but didn't want a divorce, either (why should they, they had cake and ate it too). But it may be worth something to you....I know my sister and her husband went and it truly saved something wonderful.

If you do decide to divorce:

Try and remember that your children deserve a healthy example of love in their lives.  This is what kept me centered.  I used to say, "I stayed in the marriage for the kids....then I left the marriage...for the kids".  My children (my son was 8, my daughter was 4) did not want to be "divorced", what kid would, but as they grow up in a healthier emotional environment, I have seen with time, that they do indeed deserve at  least one happy parent.  
It is not your children's marriage, it is yours, so it can't be their decision, but it is your duty to show them how to do life in a healthy way.

My children were young, but I think at any age, taking the responsibility OUT of their hands is essential.  I would get them counseling, perhaps.  My children's school had a counseling group for "changing families" and that helped them see and talk to other kids going through the same thing.  It helped with the message that I was trying to reassure them about : this has NOTHING to do with you.  It's not your fault, it's an adult situation, not to worry.  We both love you the same as always.  I used to say to my kids: you are so lucky, to have two homes where you are loved best of all (although it may not be true at dad's....I was the one who made sure they at least heard this).

Also, and boy this is tough, no matter what you feel about their dad, .....they have half his DNA.  He is a full half of who they are, and to insult him or bad mouth him is a punch in the stomach of your children, personally.
This is something I need to remember ALL the time, as my ex is a bully and a pretty horrible person.........but he is thier current dad, and my EX
husband.
They have the right to come to terms with thier father and have thier own relationship with him, unfettered by my opinion. Unless there is overt abuse (and unfortunatley, emotional abuse is impossible to get the courts to consider) it's pretty important to "support" thier loving their dad.  If your ex is a real a** like mine, they will figure that out in time, without your help.
If they get your opinion (your dad is a jerk!) YOU will be seen, instantly, as someone who is not as safe as you once were, and it will come back to bite you!

I got on my little soap box, sorry.  Just remember, they only need one good parent.
Take care......keep your loving intention.

[mum]

I was also thinking about your not feeling pretty. I knew a couple once, where the woman was not pretty, by almost any "standard", but this man loved her soooooo very much, and as a result of his love, she was confident and within seconds of meeting her, her facial irregularities dissapeared and the beauty of her as a person took over.  Everyone would instantly forget that at first glance, she was "odd" looking.
I did not feel pretty with my first husband.  I used to, before him, and he robbed that from me daily.  Told me I was useless, boring, in so many ways. I was floored when we divorced and suddenly I felt attractive again.  I wonder if this "lack" in your marriage isn't a huge contibutor to your defining yourself as unnattractive.......

[Plucky Guest2]

Thank you mum for spending time helping me.  All the people here are my lifeline.

Have you considered marriage counseling?

We did go last year.  Once the T peeled back the onion a bit she recommended separate Ts for us and H was not going along.  We limped on for a few sessions but then ended it.  I think our T was angry that we had not followed her recommendation and drove us away.

I know my sister and her husband went and it truly saved something wonderful.

We've never actually had anything wonderful.  My husband pressed me into marriage when I was depressed and needed support after I fell apart when my father died.  I've always felt like our relationship was built on a lie and he has never wanted to listen to my concerns about it.

If you do decide to divorce:
Try and remember that your children deserve a healthy example of love in their lives.

I know they do.  But I am certainly not qualified to even recognize that, much less guarantee it to my children.    I would love to know that we will have that in our lives but it is a crap shoot.  All I can do is try to eliminate the bad examples.  I do know how to make real friends, and I want to do that.  It is hard to do it in my current state. And my husband hinders me.  Did you somehow know that you would find healthy love somewhere?

I would get them counseling, perhaps...

Thanks, these are all good suggestions.

Also, and boy this is tough, no matter what you feel about their dad, .....they have half his DNA

.
Good point.  I also need to figure out the relationship with the inlaws,  That will be tough.  One thing my mother did right, was to avoid badmouthing my dad too much.  One thign she did wrong was to expose me too much to the toxic inlaws.

I was also thinking about your not feeling pretty...I did not feel pretty with my first husband. I used to, before him, and he robbed that from me daily. Told me I was useless, boring, in so many ways. I was floored when we divorced and suddenly I felt attractive again. I wonder if this "lack" in your marriage isn't a huge contributor to your defining yourself as unnattractive.......

You are right.  Knowing that somehow does not help me much to feel better, though.  My husband says, if I ask him, that he thinks I am pretty.  But he never notices if I change something (the kids do).  He never looks at me or touches me in an affectionate way.  Needless to say, sex has been forgotten in this house.  Unless asked, he never comments on my appearance.  I am always so envious when I see the looks other men give their wives.    And as time goes on and age takes its toll, I don't even bother any more trying to look good.  I just want to be functional and not stand out.

I was already prepared for this role by my mom who always had to be the pretty one.   As a child I was an ugly duckling.   When I finally started to bloom as a teen, she made many disparaging comments and told me I was trying to dress like a slut. I was not - in fact I was very self conscious of my new body, but had no idea how to dress it suddenly differently or what I really looked like to others.  Then when I was raped it seemed to punish me for how I looked.  Her statements seemed to be true, and I deserved it.  So now one side of me wants to continue to be invisible, and one side wants attention and knows looks are a way to get it, and one side of me just wants love before I die.

Thank you for reading this.    Even if you are just reading and not responding, it is attention for me and honestly I crave that attention.

Plucky Guest2

[Brigid]

Plucky,

Then when I was raped it seemed to punish me for how I looked. Her statements seemed to be true, and I deserved it.

You know now that this isn't true, right?  I was sexually assaulted when I was 9 years old and I never really knew how deeply it had affected me until I had a daughter who became that age.  I was never able to tell any adult at the time and for years thought that I just deserved it.  No human being deserves to be treated so disrespectfully and with such evil intent, much less a child or adolescent.  Have you sought counseling for this experience?  I would hope so.

I lived in a loveless (although I did not know it) marriage for too many years and accepted the excuses of why we had no intimacy without seeking the real truth.  Don't be the fool that I was.  You have a right to be loved and cared for and have a complete and fullfilling relationship.  If you love him, give it everything you have to try to save it.  Therapy can work wonders, if both parties are willing.  In my case, I was the only willing party and it does take two.  Also, don't discount the affect the rape may be having on your relationship.

I hold you in my prayers.

Blessings,

Brigid

[mum as guest]

Did you somehow know that you would find healthy love somewhere?

Hi, Plucky....yes I did.  I saw it growing up.  I also had it in a former fiance, that I left.  He is now my current fiance again. I am really blessed.

I think I was and am incredibly fortunate, and I am grateful every single day.....however, I have seen others overcome many obstacles to finding healthy love (and you certainly have more than your share!) just by believing they deserve it.  Considering your past, which by the way, I am very sorry for....((((()))))))) I think it will take time and work, but you seem to be already doing the work.
You sound very focused on that.  

I know that healing can only begin with intention.  Honestly, that's the seed, and you have already planted it.  Keep feeding that intention, and it will grow.  I read in your posts, that your already have planted it and it is beginning to develop.  Ok, so you are at a tough part now, just pushing the dirt off....but you are still under that ground, getting ready to break through.  Stay focused, you deserve love.  

I used to say this mantra (I made up) to myself when I was divorcing my first husband: "I am strong, I am beautiful, I am worthy of my dreams."

Consider something like that.....it was like Popeye's spinach for me!!!!

[Stormchild]

Pretty old
Pretty tired
Pretty poor
Pretty well fed up with my job
Pretty grateful to have a job in spite of being fed up with it
Pretty relieved to still have some of my loved ones with me
Pretty worried about things going on at work
Pretty hopeful about a few things I've discovered recently that may lead to something good, for a change,
and
Pretty much out of time to post, for now.

Yeah, looks as though that's about as pretty as it gets

[Plucky G2]

Hi everyone.  Thank you for listening.  Yuo have no idea how much it helps me.  Thanks for your 'pretty poem' Stormy.

I lived in a loveless (although I did not know it) marriage for too many years and accepted the excuses of why we had no intimacy without seeking the real truth. Don't be the fool that I was.

Thank you for saying this. In my case, the lack of intimacy is so obvious and has been for so long, that if I was not very very concerned about the impact on the kids, I would have gone already.  

You have a right to be loved and cared for and have a complete and fullfilling relationship.

Thank you for saying this.  It is like a fairy tale that I want to be true but deep down cannot believe it yet.  I will just keep trying to give myself that message until one day I will truly believe it.

If you love him, give it everything you have to try to save it.

I do not love him.  The him that I thought I was marrying turned out to be a lie.  I have been struggling wth this for sometime.  I just don't feel any love.  Part of it is that I just feel dead inside.  The other part is that I feel such anger and betrayal.  And I just don't even know who he is.  He has lied so much.  And he does not even like me, as much as he protests.  His behavior is very clear.  He has told me, "I love 60% of you but I wish the other 40% would disappear."

Also, don't discount the affect the rape may be having on your relationship.

You're right.  It does have an effect.  He would have wanted me to just get rid of the effect somehow without bothering him.   From my point of view, he knew I had issues when we started (I was depressed, on meds, and in therapy), and he pressed and pressed me to get married, saying that he loved me so much.  He had seen me at my worst.  I thought maybe he really did love me and it felt like a relief to be accepted with all my warts.  Soon he talked me off my meds, with disastrous results, and shushed me up about my problems.  Voiceless again.

I hold you in my prayers.

Thank you Brigid.

[Brigid]

Plucky,

 

And I just don't even know who he is. He has lied so much.

I completely understand this.  Unfortunately, I didn't see it until after he left me and for a very brief time was somewhat honest about himself.  I don't know what I would have done had I learned the truth earlier.  It's easy to say that I would have bailed out and saved myself from any further hurt, betrayal, dysfunction, emptiness, etc., etc.  But I don't know that for sure.   I would hope that now, with many hours of good therapy behind me, that I would not have settled for what I had, but it has taken a lot of work to get to the point where I feel I deserve that.

I think that is the key.  Learning that you deserve better and demanding it.  Easier said than done, I know.  But you are lightyears ahead of me in your awareness of what is happening (or not happening) in your marriage.  You will probably need some professional help (I can't remember if you are getting this) to help you work through this.

God bless,

Brigid

[Plucky G2]

I would hope that now, with many hours of good therapy behind me, that I would not have settled for what I had, but it has taken a lot of work to get to the point where I feel I deserve that.

Yes Brigid, I know exactly what you mean.  I hope you are firmly at that point.  I actually (unfortunately) do not think I am at the point of feeling I deserve a better relationship.   What is motivating me is that I want my children to witness a healthy marital relationship, or at least not to witness an unhealthy one.

Before I had children I felt that having them would make my life worth living.  And it has.    I came to a point where all the things that had made me happy, or kept me occupied rather, were no longer enough.    My real concerns were breaking through.  Now it is my duty (and my passion) to make sure they get the best I can give them.  I just don't understand people who put themselves before their children.  Maybe for me it is easier since I have little self to begin with in a way.  But I only have a few years to shape them forever!   How can I not do my best?

Ps thanks again for changing my life by helping me here when I had nowhere else to go.

[Brigid]

Plucky,

What is motivating me is that I want my children to witness a healthy marital relationship, or at least not to witness an unhealthy one.

This is an excellent motivation.  My therapist told me many times when I would be expressing sadness for my children over their family having come apart, that it is better for them in the long run to see their mother in a happy, fullfilling relationship, than in a marriage that is devoid of love, respect, and joy.  It is a mantra I have repeated many times over during the last 21 months.

Now it is my duty (and my passion) to make sure they get the best I can give them. I just don't understand people who put themselves before their children.

I absolutely agree.  My primary goal through the whole separation and divorce was to make sure the kids came through it as unscathed as possible.  I know that I will recover and eventually move on a make a new life, but as long as they live under my roof, they will always be the priority.  I've often said that my life truly began when I became a mother and that is where my identity and passion lies.  Maybe because they were the first two people in my life to whom I could give and receive unconditional love.

Ps thanks again for changing my life by helping me here when I had nowhere else to go.

You're very welcome.  We're all here to help each other and blessed to have found this group of friends around the dinner table.

Hugs,

Brigid

[Anonymous]

Hi all:

Been reading here but not posting.

From a few pages back, Plucky wrote:

I am storing up all the nice things you all say in my heart. They replace the holes left ...

Good for you, keep doing that!!  

I actually (unfortunately) do not think I am at the point of feeling I deserve a better relationship....

That unworthy feeling again?  Your mother told you not to dress like that and then it was your fault for the rape because you deserved it.....you weren't worthy of much better, right?

You've been N'd!!  Your mother lied!!  You didn't look like a slut at all!!  You looked like an adolescent, who was experimenting with clothing, and you might have benefitted by a loving, caring mother, who we'll pretend could have tried to ease you toward slightly more conservative tastes, by gently guiding you  (but the one you had probably envied your youth and beauty)!

Do you see what she did?  She stole your confidence!  She put you down with vile insults!  She (silly woman) didn't value you, or the good in you, or how lovely you were!!  Instead.......she tried to destroy it!

It wasn't your fault that you were raped!
It wasn't your fault that you were raped!
It wasn't!  It wasn't!!  It wasn't!!!!!!!!!

Rape is about control, not about what you were wearing or anything about what you do.
It's about seeking those who seem vunerable, ceasing opportunities and about overpowering people!
You did absolutely nothing to deserve being raped!!
Nothing!!!
Nothing!  Nothing!  Nothing!

As a matter of fact, your mother might own the responsibility of instilling a feeling of unworthiness in you.....for the pain you may still be feelings......the pain it seems like you are still feeling....due to her cruel and demeaning treatment of you!!

But......there is no chance of her doing that I bet!

You deserve to be treated with love and respect, kindness and caring!  You are worthy of love!!

You ARE worthy of love!
You are!!!

(((((((((((((Plucky)))))))))))))

Repeat after me.........I am worthy of love.
                                My abusers are responsible for their behaviour.
                                I deserve respect, kindness and caring.


Please store these words in a safe, easy to access place in your heart, and let them fill up all the holes left there by an empty mother!!!

GFN