Deciding on divorce (long)

[longtire]

Once again thank you all for your replies.  I am always amazed at the depth and care of people's posts here.  Excellent posts, every one.

I am feeling much, much better today.  Of course, despite the title, this thread is really about my relationship with God, not divorce.  I continued to pray about this last night after posting.  I thought about it this morning.  I had a session with my counselor today and did a lot of hard work.  Then, I went to church after work to find the message was on connecting to God.  I have made a lot of progress, with a lot left to go.  The good news is that things can get much better.

I don't have this sorted out yet by any means, but I did get a critical understanding in counseling today.  My experience of my family as a kid set the archetype for existence and relationship.  In other words, a very old/young part of my brain still thinks that because my parents were emotionally sterile, that I am as well.  That everyone is, the world is, the universe is and God is too.  That there is no real connection and the only way to get decent treatment is to suffer and work superhumanly hard to try to earn it.  So, none of this was coming from God at all.  In fact, all this crap, these lies, have been getting in the way of a real relationship with Him from the beginning.  I can't say I've got the relationship with Him down yet, but I can see how this basis for my life colored EVERYTHING, but isn't actually real.

I can at least see now that God in no way intended for this marriage to happen the way it has.  I don't believe he wants me to suffer or that he wants me to stay in something that is unhealthy for me for no good reason.  I might need to make some sacrifices at various times in my life, but I don't need to suffer pointlessly like I had.  I can have all the good to help balance the other out.  As October posted above and in the message tonight, God is not going to support something bad for me, even if I think it is supposed to be good.  He would not support a drug habit for me, why would he support a poisonous relationship for me.  I think that I've never really been close enough to know that his silence meant he did not approve.  I don't believe He ever intended this relationship and has been waiting for me to wake up and make better choices in my life.  So I am.

After all that, it wasn't about divorce or God or any other topics.  Of course, it is all about me and the screwed up messages I got as a kid.  The good news is that I can change my mind now and see things a different way.  Thank you all again for your support, your thoughts and prayers and your being here for me.  I shudder to think where I might be right now if I hadn't found this place.  Just another blessing!

[October]

The gift of free will He gave you is yours and He will be there for you, whether you make a good or bad choice re divorce.  He will forgive you if it ends up being a bad one, by chance. 

I think this comment slightly misses the point about free choice. 

If I give my daughter free choice about what to wear, and then think to myself 'Oh dear, she has chosen the wrong thing', no doubt showing that thought on my face, then that is not free choice.  That is at best dishonest, at worst an attempt to coerce her into mindreading in future; choose what you think I will like, to keep me happy.  Lots of Christians treat God this way, but it is not what he actually wants for us, imo.  It makes God into the ultimate Narcissist.

Free choice means that whatever C chooses, I am going to say, 'You look lovely!'  Because I allow her to be who she is, rather than expecting her to be me, or to support my ego by being or looking how I want  her to look.

When God gives us free will, I personally believe that he allows us to choose, without judging our choices.  We choose the direction and he goes with us, wherever that direction leads us, freely and without judging or saying 'I told you so.'  Life is about making mistakes; our own mistakes.  God is about being alongside us all the way.

There is no 'wrong' decision for Longtire to make, therefore.  The only wrong decision would be one made by someone else, or to keep someone else happy.

[Brigid]

October,

Life is about making mistakes; our own mistakes.  God is about being alongside us all the way.

I really like this statement.  A simple solution to a very complicated concept.

longtire,
I think you are on the right track now.  God is the only constant that can ever be in our lives.  All of us on this board know that all other aspects of life can change on a dime, including our own existence, so the only thing we can count on always being there is the presence of God in our lives.  Many times we don't think about that or look for it until we are in crisis (there are no atheists in foxholes).  Learning to be grateful for it each and every day is a process I am trying to incorporate into my life.  I am trying not to be complacent--not waiting for the next crisis--but actually being aware and thankful daily, no matter what kind of day I have had.  For someone who was not raised with faith, it has been a challenge, but I am getting better and as a result, my life gets better.

God bless on your journey.

Brigid 

[mudpuppy]

Hi October,

Not trying to be a smart mouth, but if we take your argument to its logical conclusion regarding free will we end up with some pretty bizarre results.

For instance:
If your daughter exercises her free will by going out to the mall without a stitch of clothes on, are you really going to tell her she looks lovely and see her out the door?

Or perhaps my daughter decides to try some new makeup and ends up looking like Bozo the clown. Am I really being more honest if I tell her she looks lovely, than if I tell her she might want to check the mirror again?

There is no 'wrong' decision for Longtire to make, therefore.

If Longtire decides it would be morally wrong to divorce his wife, but also that he can't live with her, and so decides to push her off a bridge, is there really no wrong decision? (don't get any ideas long )

I don't see how either a parent or God using their free will to express their desired behavior interfere's with the concept of other's free will.
The concept of free will implies that there are good and bad choices. God wants us to make good choices and He has given us a guide to know what those choices are.
Now, will He leave us or forsake us if we make a bad choice? Absolutely not. If we harm ourselves He will comfort us, if we harm others He will forgive us. But He is most assuredly interested in influencing us into making the right choice. The free will is involved when we decide to do what we please anyway. He, like us as parents, has free will to show us His preferences, and everyone has free will to ignore them.
 Free will to me means we have the right to choose despite all the evidence to the contrary that our choice is bad. It doesn't mean freedom from that evidence.
Where would my free will go if I am not allowed to tell someone their freely made choice is about to harm them or someone else?
We are free of coercion, not influence.

mudpup

[sleepyhead]

Hi Longtire, good to read you again!

As usual, when I started reading this thread I thought of some things to say, but, also as usual, by the time I got to the end you had already figured them out by yourself (and much more too)...  I am so impressed by your never-ending capacity for making progress. Anyway, as you might now I'm not a believer (well, not a christian anyway, more of a pantheist, although I agree with Jesus' teachings... this is getting confusing, get back on track Sleepy!), but from where I stand it seems that there are so many different churches with so many different teachings, even within christianity, but surely what matters most is your own personal relationship with God? If God speaks to you, is not that so much purer and truer than anything a priest can say? And it seems to me that He said to you that it's ok to leave your wife... But what do I know of religious matters?!

Anyway, I'm really happy to hear that you found God again! And wathever you decide to do, my thoughts and best wishes are with you.

[longtire]

Just a quick note.  I realized a couple of other things through today.  That I think most of what God tells us in the bible in the form of rules or laws is really just warnings that if you do these things, you will suffer the negative consequences.  Don't do them and you will be happier.  I know there is more to it than that, but it struck me how much of it can be seen this way.  God saying don't do that or you will get hurt.

And like sleepyhead posted, the important thing is to have a direct relationship with God.  All the other religions and religious stuff is intended to make that easier, at least originally, but can actually get in the way if not kept in its place.  Relationships with others are good too, of course.

[Sallying Forth]

On Free Will -

I get a newsletter called The Berean Call. A very interesting article in there about a year talked about Free Will and morality. I agree with the authors and it gave me a new perspective on the Bible and the precepts and laws.

Every human being is born with the innate ability to know right from wrong. Every human being is born with Free Will. God cannot take away Free Will. It was freely given.

On a direct relationship with God -

A personal relationship with God is what helped survive the memories of the horrific things which happened to me. By personal, I mean that God lives inside me. He's not a distant, omnipotent, omnipresent God. Rather a personal, intimate, loving God.

The book Controlling People by Patricia Evans addresses the difference between a distant relationship with God and a personal relationship with God.

I know, for me, having God living inside me, knowing He is part of me, was a big step. Not necessarily in letting go and letting God, but in knowing He loved me so much He would lovingly care for me.

[October]

Hi October,

Not trying to be a smart mouth, but if we take your argument to its logical conclusion regarding free will we end up with some pretty bizarre results.
mudpup

I disagree. 

I am not going to go into detail on your examples, I think what I have already said is enough, but I don't want to get into angels dancing on pinheads.

God does not control by manipulation, whatever religions may suggest to the contrary.  Neither should we, imo.  That is all. 

Please refrain from untoward imagery relating to my daughter.

Thank you.

[October]

That I think most of what God tells us in the bible in the form of rules or laws is really just warnings that if you do these things, you will suffer the negative consequences.  Don't do them and you will be happier.  I know there is more to it than that, but it struck me how much of it can be seen this way.  God saying don't do that or you will get hurt.

A lot of the rules in the Bible do not come from God but from man.  The warnings of negative consequences are human too, imo.  Patriarchal societies are built on threats, and the Bible was written in the context of patriarchy.

God is not about making threats.  God is love, mercy and compassion.  Anything that differs from those qualities is not of God, but of man, imho.

This may be too simplistic for some people, but it is what I believe.

[mudpuppy]

I give up.

mud

[mum]

Hi, Longtire.  I have been away (still am) but took a moment at someone's computer.  I apologize in advance if I have not read the whole thread thoroughly, but I wanted you to know that I am thinking of you and sending you lots of strength and love.
 It occurs to me that you are dealing with a  lot of fear and deciding who will win. (you or the fear).  That you are facing it at all means you have already won, regardless of the outcome.  All this talk of God is marvelous, and I feel that disconnection from the devine causes us lots of suffering.... but the bottom line (for me) is that nothing will rescue us from ourselves, and that surrendering to the idea that along with being mindful (you certainly are) we must at some point let go of feeling we have to know everything and have everything figured out. It can't be done, we are human. 
Bless you, longtire.  Go with your loving intention and, frankly, stop looking for a life preserver....you have everything you need within yourself to do what is right.  Have faith.

[longtire]

mum, yes I face the fear now.  I don't fear, but I dread facing it.  If it hasn't killed me by now, then it's never going to kill me unless I let it.

I got the book Hinds' Feet on High Place and read about a third of it this morning, interspersed with prayer, meditation, and guided imagery.  It is already starting to help me see more clearly.  I think I overdid it though.  I'm exhausted with a headache this afternoon.  Still, I don't regret doing this work now.  I got a fortune cookie the other day right after therapy.  It said, "It is better to do things late, than never at all."

I wanted to share this.  Seeds of Light.  We are all reallly just light, but as soon as we come into the world, we start to form hard, opaque seed shells around our true selves to "protect" ourselves.  The shells keep other people from seeing that we are really light, just as theirs keeps us from seeing them as light.  Also, our own shells keep us from seeing others' light as well.  Since no one can see others clearly, we end up stepping on each other's toes without even realizing it.  The things is, we don't need the shells in the first place.  If the seeds inside never get out then the shell only hurts, not helps.  The shells are lies.  Lies that are not who we are.  The shells whisper in our ears that we need them, but the truth is we would all be far better off without them.  I don't mean to suggest that many people don't need "shells" to protect them from others who hurt them, especially as children.  I mean that as adults, as human beings, we don't need these shells for ourselves.  They only hurt us.

My shell has distorted my view of who I am, what I am, and everything else about existence.  The lies I was told were that nobody can possibly care about others.  That I didn't have any value.  That other people had the reight to define and judge me because there was nothing inherent in my existence.  That I didn't have any value or deserve good treatment because there was nothing special about me.  That last is true in a way, I'm no more or less special than anyone else, but I deserve good things just because I'm here.  Lies within the lies and only the lies justify themselves, nothing else does.

I'm not willing to give those lies any credibility any more.  I finally see them for what they are.  They are not me.  I am light.  We all are.  I trust that the path will show me where to go from here.  I'm pulling up the stakes of my old life and moving into new territory.  mum, you are right.  I have everything I need in order to do and be what is right and intended.  I always have, but couldn't see it through the lies before.  What an awesome and exhausting week! 

[Portia]

Hi Longtire. Just read this thread. Haven’t read other’s replies so sorry if I’m repeating. Saw this very early:

After 16 years of refusing to go get help (I had offered many, many times) she suggested a marriage weekend. I agreed because I wanted to be able to tell my daughter that I had tried EVERYTHING.

Why?
Your daughter’s happiness and mental balance does not depend on your trying everything to save your marriage. Fact.
Your daughter will not judge you through her mother’s eyes.
You are the parent: she is the child. She has her own life and though your life affects her, she is not emotionally judging you – yet...!
What matters to her is what happens to her – not you or her mother.

Imagine your parents saying what you said above, about you. Can you?

Sorry Longtire if this is hurtful. Is it?


About you, and marriage and God (and you know my thoughts), so:

Were you and your wife ever really married? If you review the marriage vows, was there ever a time you were truly married (in the eyes of God if you like)?

I doubt it. A true marriage isn’t about legal documents. It’s about two people deeply caring for each other. It didn’t happen, it was a legal joining, made by men. Did God tell you to get married? If not, why should He tell you to divorce?  Too rational maybe!

I don't want to hurt this renewed relationship any worse that I already have.

Can you hurt God’s feelings? Can you hurt God?
You know that you will not die for doing what you want to do. You would have as a tiny child. But now you can care for yourself. And you don’t need anyone’s permission to do that.

I'm afraid that if I wait, I'll find out that God wants me to stay in this marriage after all.

What a cruel God you would have. What a cruel father/Father?

Glad to see you Longtire and so glad you’re feeling and thinking as you are. Just the way you are! (((Longtire)))

[longtire]

Portia, keep reading to see the conclusions that I've come to since then.  I start with the things I ridiculously think/believe/feel at that moment and then talk my way through, challenging every aspect of my stuff.  By the time I'm done, I can hardly comprehend that I used to believe the original things.  Still, I can go back over the events of my life and see what lead me to those early beliefs.  It is not until recently that I have had enough peace and acceptance in my life to feel safe taking on these things all at once this way.  That I've felt safe enough to dive all the way to the bottom, or at least as far as I can reach, and work my way back up.

I no longer believe that I am hopeless or that things are hopeless for me.  I have been able to change things about myself that I thought were permanent, inseperable parts of me.  I can see now that all the good things that used to only happen to other people can easily happen for me.  I am no better or worse than any other person.  I can choose all the good that anyone else has, or better yet, I can choose all the good that means the most to me.

I'm taking a break from Hinds' Feet today to rest up.  I did a lot yesterday and it left me feeling like I was run over by a truck several times.  I feel much better today and am taking care of things around my house.

[vunil]

Hi, Longtire--

Long time no reply  

This echoes what some others have said, but I think that the reflection of god we get through the bible or wherever is just a reflection, with the same possibilities for distortion that all reflections have.  You don't really have to figure out what god wants by reading the bible or anything else.  You can just ask.  He (or she or whatever) will let you know.

And I think the reason for rules is so that folks who are more motivated by momentary impulses will have a sense of guidance.  So, the idea of not getting divorced really means "take seriously the vow that you made."  It's the vow and your word that are sacred, not the marriage per se.  I think that you have honored your vow and your word.  You have weighed them against everything else.  And try not to underweigh some of the things that god wants for you-- to be the best you can be, to be at peace, to create a family that is warm and loving and not filled with the kind of anxiety you've had.  I think it's great to want to sacrifice for others, but in this case who would you be helping?  No one.  So, how does that advance a spiritual cause?

My favorite joke is that one about the guy who is drowning.  He asks god to help him.  A boat comes and offers to take the guy to shore, and he says "no, I prayed, and god will come."  Then a helicopter comes, same thing.  Then a talking whale comes and offers him a ride to shore.  No, thanks, he says, god will come.  So the guy drowns.  He goes to heaven.  God is there and he asks him why he let him drown.  God (who has a voice just like Mel Brooks) says "let you drown?  what do you want?  I sent a boat, I send a helicopter, I sent a whale!"

It's fine to be a martyr.  But it's important to be a martyr TO something if you choose that route   In this case, everyone wins (it seems) if you follow what your heart is telling you to do.  If there is some reason you truly don't believe that, or are not sure what your heart is telling you, then maybe there is something still to be worked out in couple's therapy, to see what you are saving.  Is there something worth sacrificing for? 

Hang in there.