Help-Trouble with NFriends-Stuck-Long

[vunil]

Wow, Marta.  Very thought-provoking.  I think what you say is true.

I have been trying to be conscious of all of these issues in the last couple of months (meaning I have really shifted who I spend time with-- but it has been worth it).  But one thing I noticed is that when my boundaries were really violated and I reacted to this, I got major cold FURY from some of my friends.  Absolute fury.  And from coworkers, too.  This was instructive, because I was utterly reasonable in both the judgment I was making and in the way I handled it (I do a lot of checking with well-adjusted people for advice on this!).  Just for an example, I had a get-together at my house last weekend and a couple of people came over early to get ready with me.  One woman started busily cleaning my desk-- looking at all of my personal papers and bills (when I first saw her at my desk, she had a medical bill in her hand and she was studying it), putting things in piles of her own design, etc.  I asked her to stop, please, there was no need to clean my desk and she didn't speak to me for the rest of the evening, except in brief monsyllables.  She glared at me throughout the party, angrily.  She is now ignoring me completely, for a couple of weeks.


Why did they get so mad?

Well, I must have been letting them violate my boundaries all the time before.  I didn't even realize it, or didn't realize I could notice it and stop it.

So why was I with someone who did this?  I think it feels like instant intimacy, as someone said earlier.  I think early in a friendship if there is a lot of overly personal discussion, advice, and expectation, that it feels comforting.  Really it is just boundary violation.  And the more subtle thing that happens is this bartering-- as if the N is saying to you "let me act this way with you and I'll give you real friendship and/or make you feel really special."  And maybe boundary-violation feels like parenting to those of us who didn't have parents in that sense-- feels like love.



But I like Marta's idea of looking at what we do, too.  One thing I think that I have done in the past is (1) let myself get "swept away" in N b.s., both in friends and with men-- I sort of like the grandiosity, the "we are so wonderful compared to others," the "we have this particularly fabulous friendship" stuff, and (2) make it pretty clear early on I will trade my boundaries for the chance at this kind of friendship. 


Now I really won't do either of these things.  The price I have to pay is having some N's really mad at me.  And that's the third thing I think it is easy to do (3) run away from conflict when all the N stuff starts coming out.  If we don't say "stop!" to the N behavior it just continues.  But saying "stop!" is tough for me, getting much easier, but not my favorite.  For a minute I even wanted to tell this woman it was ok to clean my desk!  I am proud that I didn't do that.

I will say it is liberating, though, learning to say no  

[vunil]

Such good observations!  Actually, it's funny, I didn't actually tell the woman not to clean my desk-- what I did was more subtle (maybe a look?  maybe I asked what she was up to?) but it clearly communicated because she stopped immediately. I was feeling badly that I wasn't more direct-- I sort of was, sort of wasn't.  My message was definitely to stop.  I will have to ponder whether what I did was better or worse than a direct statement.  She is furious and is avoiding me, but is that bad?  It isn't how I would act in her situation.  In fact, I would never be in her situation, but if I were my hope is that I would have a conversation about it.  So the fact that she is so angry is her problem, and a good indication for me of where things stand with us.

right?

Oh, one thing Bunny said I wanted to come back to-- when I decided to do some housecleaning of the N-ness in my life, I didn't stop being friends with many folks (some I did) but I shifted my energies to other people who are not N whom I don't know as well, and new people I picked out for their lack of N-ness. I expected to be lonely for awhile while I set up this new life (I am an extrovert, like to have lots of friends, so not having folks around would not be the usual deal for me).  I was ok with that.

Well, oddly enough, I have been less lonely.  When you make a void in your life, people fill it up!  It is astounding to witness.  Now I have more time and energy for other people and they are there for me.  AND here's the kicker-- non N people are better friends.  Big surprise, right?  But it is so refreshing to be around them, try to emulate them.  When I mixed friends in a recent event, I noticed how much calmer and happier my new friends are than my older friends.  Maybe that's me, too, calmer and happier.

One more Marta-type observation-- I think that my non N friends didn't like me so much before.  I think I had that same nervous whatever that made the N friends like me.  Now that I have shucked a lot of that I am easier to relate to, less needy, less shallow, less fidgety.

I like having the strength to look at my own behavior without defensivenes.  It's tough to do, and very useful.

[miss piggy]

Hello,

I also hate confrontations, and hate having to face the aftermath of saying no. I am just learning that there are ways to protect my boundaries, other than saying outright, please don’t clean my desk! I might say, can we please go to the kitchen, and give a displeased look to the woman who’s cleaning my desk! I am learning to use these subtle ways,

Wow.  This brought up so many memories for me.  I hate confrontations too, just because as a child of an N I have trouble holding my ground.  Wilting flower v. bulldozer.  Yay for you for calling this woman on it.  Yes, there are two ways to go, the subtle way (redirecting her to the kitchen) in which you have to be on your toes, able to think on your feet, walk on eggshells, etc., and the direct way (which, frankly, is OK too.)  She was probably angry because she lost face.  But too bad.  She was way over the line and got caught.  This is HER problem.  Isn't just so typical of us to worry about THEIR reaction vs. protecting our boundaries.  Maybe you weren't, but I would be.

After a lot of therapy, I was finally able to see through such situations.  My D was asked by the biggest jerk of her class if he could see her report card. The policy in our house regardless of how they do is grades are private.  So she said, no.  Instant knee jerk reaction: You're mean!     When she told me this, I laughed.  Yes, you're mean because you wouldn't let him have his way with YOUR report card.  What made him think he had a right to see your report card?  Is he your friend, I asked sarcastically (directed at him, not her).  

I'm proud that I am trying to teach my kids they have rights.  I was never taught this, and that's why MY boundaries can be fuzzy.

For a more public version of saying no, I recall reading about Joan Kennedy and how she was continually bulldozed by her N mother.  And then bulldozed into marrying Teddy (she wanted to call it off when she realized what she was getting into).  Finally, during the separation or maybe even after the divorce!  the K family expected her to campaign for him (something she of course had done in the past, was proud of, and had gotten NO recognition or appreciation for from the family, esp. Teddy)...and she said no.  She sat there at a meeting while everyone tried to bulldoze her again, cajole her, intimidate her.  She finally learned to stand her ground.  

I think the moral of the story is, when people around me are getting upset, I am probably protecting a boundary.  If I cave to win their approval, I will probably damage myself and regret it later.

Reading about this woman rummaging through your personal information really makes me angry.  Esp the part about her getting upset with you.  She was probably thinking about retaliating against you for having the gall to kick her rear.  Phooey!

Last thing:

Be who you are and don't worry about the people who won't like it. There will always be fellow travelers.

Thank you Bunny!!!  I had a meeting yesterday with a small group of women I like very much, but they make me self-conscious.  I remembered this line and was able to relax and go with the flow.  Que sera sera type of feeling.  This board is really helpful.

MP

PS, Marta, just read your post that went up while writing mine...

I will have to ponder whether what I did was better or worse than a direct statement. 

No, you don't have to ponder this.  You have rights, you knew it and she knew it.  Don't let her anger and reaction cause you to doubt yourself in anyway.  She is probably regarding you as a threat now, because you have some pretty good "dirt" on her behavior and you might tip off her other "friends".   I liked reading about your "housecleaning".  I am going to give this some thought myself.  Hugs, MP

[bunny]

When I learned about boundaries, and decided I wanted them, my mantra was, "No one f---s with me. I take no crap from now on. No exceptions."  This didn't lead to any aggressive confrontations. I just developed a vibe that told people not to mess with me. They knew I would enforce my boundaries and not cross theirs. It was like a new world. I started commanding respect from people. I dislike confrontations and avoid them whenever I can. But if I have to confront, I will, and the person will know my displeasure even if I say very few words. My goal is to send this message: "Do not f--- with me." That's all I want them to know.

bunny

[vunil]

I have said those words in my head a lot in the last 8 months or so-- I thought it was the pregnancy!  It is a funny thing to say in one's mind-- I call it my inner Clint Eastwood.  It probably does narrow the eyes in just the right way so that they do get a little scared.  I don't always remember to feel that way, though-- it does sometimes compete with other less healthy voices like "what are you thinking," "what are you wanting" and less commonly these days, thank god, "how can I make you like me?"

But isn't that weird that I had the same words in my mind? It's not exactly the buddha's mantra but for women who have been trampled on it's probably a good thing to say in one's mind now and again.

Most of us on this list could benefit from saying this in our minds a little more. It can be our secret motto.

[Sallying Forth]

So why was I with someone who did this?  I think it feels like instant intimacy, as someone said earlier.  I think early in a friendship if there is a lot of overly personal discussion, advice, and expectation, that it feels comforting.  Really it is just boundary violation.  And the more subtle thing that happens is this bartering-- as if the N is saying to you "let me act this way with you and I'll give you real friendship and/or make you feel really special."  And maybe boundary-violation feels like parenting to those of us who didn't have parents in that sense-- feels like love.

But I like Marta's idea of looking at what we do, too.  One thing I think that I have done in the past is (1) let myself get "swept away" in N b.s., both in friends and with men-- I sort of like the grandiosity, the "we are so wonderful compared to others," the "we have this particularly fabulous friendship" stuff, and (2) make it pretty clear early on I will trade my boundaries for the chance at this kind of friendship.

Whoa! This is how it HAS been in most of my friendships.

The N starts off the relationship with intimate personal discussion usually revealing something to me she would never do with anyone. At least that is what she says. Of course this must translate to me as you are so great or wonderful or comforting to me compared to others. That I believe is the bait. Then the person turns the table from this point to control the relationship and become the "mother." Although they occasionally use the bait to hook me into the relationship, keeping me in their game. And I, of course, want close intimacy so I am baited and hooked and then share my stuff which only gives them more bait to hook me.

Thanks Marta and Vunil, great insights.

[bunny]

How did you develop the vibe? What is your vibe like? red, green or purple, smooth or rough?  What obstacles did you face during this process? What was the fallout? Can you elaborate? What did you do with folks who kept transgressing your boundaries, inspite of the vibe, who were not necessarily Ns ?

The vibe was just a decision that I carried out. I don't recall facing many obstacles because this vibe tends to discourage that. People who transgress my boundaries get blocked, often by my ignoring them or just being a closed book.



One of my problems is that I often want the other person, provided it is not an N, to see my view point when I am enforcing a boundary.

I understand wishing the other person would hear the explanation but they won't. It works better to explain nothing and just show people through your behavior.

bunny

[amethyst]

This is all great stuff.

I know it is very important to look at behavior and clean it up. I know that I used to be passive-aggressive and miss deadlines and committments because I was such a people pleaser that I said yes to everything. Of course I was totally overwhelmed and angry and resentful underneath, which led to either being snippy or depressed. Then I would wonder why people got angry at me!! That's one of the first things I straightened out many years ago. I am real good at saying no.

Bunny, you are right. There is something about explaining when you make a reasonable statement or request that weakens it. My therapist taught me that. It took me a long time to get comfortable with it. I thought I had to justify everything.

I just have to learn not to get hooked in and to develop a don't f*** with me attitude.

I did a lot more thinking about my friend....and after doing some reading, have decided she is more of a borderline with some N characteristics. She can be very generous and caring at times, but it has been a long time since I have seen that side of her.  She is not somebody that is evil...so I have gotten over my anger to a great degree. I just cannot talk to her while she is so needy...that's the bottom line, and it may take years for her to get past being so needy.  She needs to learn to grow a healthy adult and reparent herself, which is a monumental task. There is a tremendous amount of trauma in her past that she has not dealt with. We're not talking about a little PTSD, here. I identified with her because I used to be so much like her.

Anyway, she emailed me, apologized, does not want to lose the friendship, appeared to accept responsibility. I wrote her and told her that I am not willing to talk because we will fall back into the same old patterns...and I owned my responsibility for not strictly setting boundaries. Supposedly she is starting therapy next month and I told her that she needs to replace my very non-therapeutic ear with that of the therapist, who will listen to her and assign her tasks. I told her that by continuing to talk to her, I was enabling her to stay in the same old crap and also victimising myself. I told her we can keep in touch with email, but the business relationship is over, too. She also said she is having panic attacks, which I believe, but hopefully therapy will help her with those; her panic is a sign that she needs to change, which is what I told her. Since it is difficult, at least at this point in her life, for her to stay still and composed long enough to put together a coherent email, I don't think I will hear from her frequently. I feel good because I feel I have left it in the most loving fashion possible while protecting myself. My hubby calls it black belt Al-anon. 

As far as that woman who got mad that you caught her looking at your personal papers, Vunil, I think she is feeling  lots of false pride and anger that is covering up the guilt underneath.