a big lie always

[amethyst]

Moira,
I am so happy for you that you are cutting this creep of!!!!!! What a predator! That is so enraging how some of those men in AA are---- they may think they are recovered but I think preying on culnerable women is sometimes  worse even than hitting the bottle at least in my opinion!!!!!!! I think it's great that you can relish this victory and refuse to take his crap anymoe,
Love,
Bloopsy

(((Moira)))  Good on you Moira for finding all women's meetings, getting support, and working with other women to watch out for the newcomers.

(((Bloopsy))) Most guys with genuine long-term sobriety and recovery are straight arrows...and are feminists, because one of the things we learn in 12 Step is to be truly respectful of others. That means not engaging in sexually usive or abusive relationships. We don't see much homophobia, racism, or classism either. It's just not condoned. We see few of the predatory types in 12 Step programs. They may come in, often under court order, with their little sheets of paper that we have to sign for their probation officers....but the true N's and APD's don't last long because they have NO idea how to work the steps....and no desire to, either. To do a "searching and thorough moral inventory" is beyond them. Not everyone that is court ordered to AA fails to make it, but most do not stick around. Unfortunately, we also get the occasional female predator too....so it is not just the guys, but like the guys, they don't stick around.

[Bloopsy]

I don't mean to say that there are a lot of predators in AA or anything or to knock the program at all--- maybe it is the area I live in ( New York City ) or something----- but there are actually a lot of guys here to watch out for who will pretend to be helping you/talking the program with you, and they are not doing it to help you or to help themselves spiritually, but to win your trust and become "The Helpful Father" or whatever, so that they can have their benefits whenever they can get them.  I know that there are plenty of men on the other side of the spectrum too. One of the best shares I ever heard at AA was  from a man who is a former sexual predator talking about how he uses the program to help himself to think of/ treat women in a more respectful manner. But I have also seen how men target newcomers under the premise that they do not have their feelings yet or that they are vulnerable, and this goes on all the time around where I go to meetings.  There will be a swarm of men around a newcomer, and they are not trying to hlp her. I'm not trying to put men down and I know there are also a lot of respectful men in AA too and predatory women, but I know what I have seen and it really does go on and is an issue. Some of the men/women may be sober in terms of substances but addicts in other areas, such as sex.From my experience of going to AA sometimes 5 times a day  when I needed to for the past year, many of the predatory men do stay around, maybe coming in and out, but they are there, and there is always a woman who is vulnerable and will need to watch her back, and it is a lot safer in my opinion for her to be watching her back and not thinking that just because she is in AA that she will not be used. At one of the meetings there was a man who was a rapist, and he is in prison now, but he stayed around long enough to rape at least 2-3 women, and his method of hitting on them, which he used on me but I was luckily not having any of it, was to offer them AA coins and buy them coffee and congradulate them on their day count only to lure them into a secluded church and rape them.. AA welcomes everyone, and he would not be turned away and that is good, but with that in mind I think it is a good idea to be careful.

[Bloopsy]

 Dear Amethyst,
I admit that i am a little bit upset. I feel that I have been to many 12 step groups especially in the last few years, and that what I have seen there is very real and valid. I admit to feeling very invalidated and confused. I understand that maybe the 12 step groups that you go to are different than the ones I do, or maybe in a different area or something, but I feel that my experience of 12 step groups is also valid  along with yours. I would not have the strong opinions that i do and  which I expressed in my note to Moira if they were not based in reality, and am not making it up in my head. Maybe when I say "predator", I don't mean that they are always a full blooded predator, but rather someone who is willing to take advantage of a situation for their own benefit sexually or otherwise, with a callous regard for the person that they are involving themselves with and in the service of a somewhat dubious end..
Bloopsy

[amethyst]

I don't mean to say that there are a lot of predators in AA or anything or to knock the program at all--- maybe it is the area I live in ( New York City ) or something----- but there are actually a lot of guys here to watch out for who will pretend to be helping you/talking the program with you, and they are not doing it to help you or to help themselves spiritually, but to win your trust and become "The Helpful Father" or whatever, so that they can have their benefits whenever they can get them.  I know that there are plenty of men on the other side of the spectrum too. One of the best shares I ever heard at AA was  from a man who is a former sexual predator talking about how he uses the program to help himself to think of/ treat women in a more respectful manner. But I have also seen how men target newcomers under the premise that they do not have their feelings yet or that they are vulnerable, and this goes on all the time around where I go to meetings.  There will be a swarm of men around a newcomer, and they are not trying to hlp her. I'm not trying to put men down and I know there are also a lot of respectful men in AA too and predatory women, but I know what I have seen and it really does go on and is an issue. Some of the men/women may be sober in terms of substances but addicts in other areas, such as sex.From my experience of going to AA sometimes 5 times a day  when I needed to for the past year, many of the predatory men do stay around, maybe coming in and out, but they are there, and there is always a woman who is vulnerable and will need to watch her back, and it is a lot safer in my opinion for her to be watching her back and not thinking that just because she is in AA that she will not be used. At one of the meetings there was a man who was a rapist, and he is in prison now, but he stayed around long enough to rape at least 2-3 women, and his method of hitting on them, which he used on me but I was luckily not having any of it, was to offer them AA coins and buy them coffee and congradulate them on their day count only to lure them into a secluded church and rape them.. AA welcomes everyone, and he would not be turned away and that is good, but with that in mind I think it is a good idea to be careful.

Hi Bloopsy, I think that I am fortunate to live in a community where there is a really strong recovery movement with lots of established meetings and long term recovery. You are right about NYC...I did not know that is where you are located. In that case, I agree with your perceptions. The men are much more aggressive than anywhere else I have ever been. I have noticed lots of single iffy characters at AA when I visit NYC. Interestingly, the problem with that is much less on Long Island or out in Connecticut.  It may be the difference between single men and domesticated married suburban types. I tend to favor the domesticated meetings...lol, but travelling two hours to a meeting is not feasable.

It's very bizarre because another city that has great recovery and a big single population is Seattle. Maybe hitting on people is just less culturally acceptable there with all the people who are of Norwegian and Swedish extraction. 

There is a Friday night meeting here that is notorious for being a meet and meat market. It's a lead meeting and is attended by singles who spend more time checking eachother out than listening to the lead. Everyone is dressed as if they are ready to hit the bars. DH and I have been a few times when I badly needed a meeting, but we try to find something else when we can on that night. 

I am very much in favor of women's meetings. That avoids the problem of male predators. I have met a few female predators  at women's meetings, though. Part of that is due to my appearance...I look like Gertrude Stein, not withstanding some makeup and mild adornment. People often assume that I am a lesbian because I look more like the stereotype than not. It's just one of those things. I am no homophobe either, so until they get to know me, I can understand why the perception exists. That has made for some uncomfortable situations and misunderstandings, as well as some healthy laughter after the misunderstandings was resolved. (The laughter depended on whether the person was really recovering or was there desperately seeking someone to "love.") Anyway, I finally realized that if I share I am married when it comes my time to speak, there is no problem unless the person is just not listening...and I have run into only one of those folks.

[Bloopsy]

I admit that I really appreciate knowing that I can take care of myself even in the face of a male predator, and that listening to them talk helps to me to think of them less as the enemy and more as a person who may be playing an opposite role from the one I may have played. It helps me to see that they are weak and struggling human beings, and not all powerful big time men of the world.

[Moira]

Hi Bloopsy and all! Thanks for the support and comments. a remark about my ex N being a predator. He is not only a clinically diagnosed N but I believe wholeheartedly he is a sociopath. He will likely drop out of program at some point but the scary thing- and I know it's not my place to try and protect or even waste time obsessing about it( jeopardizes my recovery)- is he is waitlisted to go into another recovery program that is co-ed. Poor women! If he continues his current behaviour though I'm sure some woman will lodge a complaint and that constitutes immediate discharge. I spoke about this whole situation and my rage at a meeting the other night_ anonymously of course) and several of his recovery house guys who know me quite well were there. All of them came up to me after and asked who it was and said they'd be happy to "chat him up". I know they went back and discussed this with the N- not knowing that it's him- and I'm quite sure that would be enough to cause him to have a meltdown- pretty obvious then that it's him. Interestingly he called me 4 X last night and each time never left a message. so that says to me he wants to speak to me directly so he can have an enraged rightious "chat". I also did something likely inappropriate but I don't give a damn. Last night I called his shrink and left him a brief mssg. with my name and said I have had numerous complaints ( about your patient's) behaviour made by women. Now one woman is afraid of him. He is using the program as a hunting ground. Obviously due to ethics and confidentiality the shrink won't call me back to discuss. But he'll at least have heard the message. N usually sees him Thurs- after he goes on his usual pre appt. porn binge. No doubt that will guarantee a flurry of abusive calls and I'm positive he'll rant about it repeatedly in groups- " betrayal and lying" come to mind as volunteered topics! As I continue unhealthily relish my anger, I'm hoping he once again vilates anonymity and mentions my name but in many groups it will be obvious to everyone who he is talking about. I have no intention of responding at all in group or  outside it. In fact I'll speak about how well my life is going and great things are actually fallling out of the sky for me these days in all areas of my life. For the first time I actually am developing friendships with women and am really enjoying their company. I'm involved in all kinds of social activities. My new job is slowly sorting itself out and I'm working with 3 other RN's who are wonderful. I just found out last night that my parent's inheritance money is all set to be deposited into my bank this week, is more than i thought it would be and I'll finally have enough $ to buy a condo! I've severed all ties to the N and although still pretty damn angry am also feeling a weird sense of some kind of peace. I started doing meditation again last night and back into my practice of Wicca. And the really important thing- and amazing!- is that throughout all this, although I've had cravings to use, I haven't! I'm so happy and grateful for all of you here! Now been using this forum long enough that I'm having a sense of real community and family here! Wonderful! Hugs to all! Moira

[Bloopsy]

Go Moira go!!!!! It seems like being happy and doing your own thing is the best revenge anyway!