Our internal 'guidance system'

[David P]

This post is mostly me thinking out loud.
Is seems to me that mostly I understand how the abuse from having N parents has damaged me as a whole person. For example. I do not have much confidence in my 'emotional judgements' By that I mean that when I feel 'something'towards another person, I immediately get to womndering if others would feel the same way. Sometimes I need to go check the situation with a bud and if he/she validates me or agrees that my feelings are 'right' then all is well. I have inherited a notion from my parents that every feeling/dream/wish/hope/desire/want and aspiration is either right or wrong and when I was a kid THEY appointed themselves the arbiter of the rightness or wrongness of all these things. I was never allowed to just 'own' my own emotional milestones on my own childhood  journey. Consequently I have a poor sense of entitlement and personal ownership of these things.
This campaign by my parents was purely a perverted need in them to control everything about me and my sibs. Another N trait -another disordered behavior which they defend fiercely to this day . Aren't N's skilled at rationalising their every move?

I am under no childish illusions that my parenst 'loved' me or 'did the best that they could'. They used me in a sick campaign of psychological warfare in which they( to their mind) win and their children always lose. I guess it is now painful but obvious that the N seeks to dominate others by emotional annihilation and, who better to engage, than the every present children.
I cannot recall even one sincere expression of spontaneous emotion by them ( unless it was seething anger).
Thats about anough for one post --
DP

[Marta]

when I feel 'something'towards another person, I immediately get to womndering if others would feel the same way.
Sometimes I need to go check the situation with a bud and if he/she validates me or agrees that my feelings are 'right' then all is well.

I used to do that for decades (not anymore.) The first question I always asked was, is what I am feeling "normal", how do others deal with this situation? My exT did not understand why I always asked this, and it'd drive him nuts. I always bounced my reactions off others, and it made me so dependent on other people.

Consequently I have a poor sense of entitlement and personal ownership of these things.

Bingo! It's like others were running my life instead of me, when it was I who had to live with the consequences. While I did suffer from the consequences, I couldn't really take ownership of the decisions because they weren't really mine.

You are asking the right questions David.

[mum]

Hi, David.I know your post was you thinking out loud... hope you don't mind another voice.  I'm sorry your parent's were such horrible "parents" ( that word should be reserved for better.....)

I thought for a long time that I was the only person on the planet who felt like my opinion doesn't matter at all.  I would make a decision, check and recheck for reactions from everyone involved or not involved and then scrap my whole (basically sound) decision making process and start all over....or do what someone else thought was a better idea....or do nothing at all and feel hopelessly inadequate.
I did not have N parents, but I was always the "sweet" girl, and that was greatly encouraged in a large family.  Throw in Catholic church doctrine and birth order and a few other pretty rotten social experiences and my little recipe for voicelessness was complete.  Ironic, as I had the biggest mouth as a kid....but only used it to say pleasing or funny things, or to scream, "notice me, damnit!"

A while back I told my therapist that formulating an opinion and sticking to it, without backtracking when it didn't please everyone else....was a huge step for me. She said "It's huge for most people". I am finding that is more true than I ever realized.  I mean just look at the board here. We all are finding our way back to being heard....and mostly we are really learning to listen to ourselves.

[Gail]

Yes, Yes, Yes!  I can totally relate to this topic.  I have made some very bad decisions based on what other people thought I should do.  And I have always lacked confidence in my internal guidance system.  I have even been known to ask,"Should I feel this way?"--taking a poll among friends and acquaintances for their opinions.    

Any display of emotion was frowned upon growing up--sadness, anger, fear, even joy or anticipation.  My parents were not "controlling"--I was free to make most of my own decisions, and really probably not given enough adult guidance.  The problem in my family was that I could not openly show what I felt.  So, I "learned" my feelings weren't valid.  In fact, a display of negative feelings was often treated as a character problem.  I was told I talked too much, was too high strung, and that my personality contributed to a painful inherited condition I had.   (Once I was slapped so hard my nose bled because I dared to say I didn't want to go to some sort of event my brother was in.  That was seen as extreme selfishness--another character flaw.)  None of those accusations were valid, but I internalized them.  And I didn't develop that very important protective mechanism--the ability to trust my feelings that something "wasn't quite right."  

Even now, I monitor pretty carefully how much I talk--always afraid I'm "talking too much" and boring people, and I try very hard not to be "selfish".  Oh, those habits get so ingrained.  It's hard to just "be" when so much of childhood was spent accommodating to someone else's skewed view of reality.

This is painful.  I thought I had worked out all this years ago, but obviously I haven't or I wouldn't have continued in some of the same harmful patterns of behavior.  And I dearly love my parent who hurt me this way.  She has changed a great deal over the years and I've been able to forgive her.  I don't want to be angry or resentful--just want to face and understand what happened so that I can be healthier in the future.

Gail
 

[David P]

Hi Gail, after reading your post I am confused a bit . If you think that what I am about to say is too harsh then tell me and I will melt it down some.

You say that your parents were not'controlling' and you were free to make your own decisions. THEN you go on to paint a picture of a childhood spent in an atmosphere, created by your parents, of rigid rules and rights and wrongs about 'how' you should feel most of the time. It seems that you were mostly told how to' be' in a way that was convenient for your parents and to hell with how and why you felt the way that you did. These kinds of parents have some really subtle but effective way of regulating childrens feelings - A look, a sneer, a raised eyebrow,a stern shake of the head. Tell me again how your parents behavior was NOT controlling?

David P.

[Gail]

I guess that's why I put the word controlling in quotes.  I meant that on the surface, especially as I got older, my activities weren't monitored, but I was not allowed to express my emotions or even to show them in subtle ways.  I can see that is a particularly damaging kind of controlling and I thank you for emphasizing that.  I think it's hard, even now, to admit how bad it really was. 

I know that my parents had pretty horrendous childhoods themselves and didn't know how to nurture a healthy emotional life in their own children.  My mother was quite heartbroken when she realized, when I was a young adult, how much I was hurt by events that happened to me when I was younger.  Since then, we have developed a pretty good relationship which I think is fairly miraculous and something that I am very grateful for.  Unfortunately, though, I was left with that people pleasing pattern and lack of confidence in my internal guidance. 

[bliz]

The biggest thing I remember about my childhood regarding emotions is that "strong" emotions werent tolerated.  You were supposed to go around with a vacant smile, I suppose.  Unfortunately that meant I did not know how to handle stong emotions, even joy.  If I felt myself getting emotional I put a clamp on my feelings.  My parents are still like that but through years of therapy and other support I can now mostly feel all my emotions and express them.  It's  a wonderful thing.  I believe I thought that strong emotins would kill me, but found out later they would free me.

[Sallying Forth]

I cannot recall even one sincere expression of spontaneous emotion by them ( unless it was seething anger).

I used to describe my Nfather's emotional depth in this way - he was flat as a picture on the wall.

He cried one time, when the family cat died.

He had many tirades especially whenver he saw us children acting and behaving like normal children, like watching cartoons on television Saturday mornings. That would send him into temper tantrum where he would go around singing about our laziness. It was all said in Yiddish and only recently did I figure out they were swear words.

[mudpuppy]

Hi Gail,

Even now, I monitor pretty carefully how much I talk--always afraid I'm "talking too much" and boring people

Why is it so common that the people who have something interesting to say are like you, always afraid they're talking too much, while the most God awful bores can talk the hind leg off a mule?

Which suggests a maxim; The biggest bores are people who talk incessantly about themselves. Narcissists have nothing to talk about other than themselves. Consequently Narcissists are the biggest bores on the planet.

When you get down to it, while they're infuriating and can be alternately charming or just plain mean, has anybody here met a Narcissist who in the end wasn't just an utterly tedious, stupefyingly boring galoot, blabbing endlessly about themselves?

mudpup

[vunil]

Hi, David--

I have had this second-guessing my whole life.  Even now, when I have pretty well conquered the worst of it, I have times when my intuition shouts something super-strongly and I still ignore it.  I just don't always trust myself.  I know why, too, because I've been observing my relationship with my parents and trying to remember what it was like in childhood.  Basically, I think if your family doesn't respect your point of view and/or contradicts/argues with you a lot when you do state what you want, you grow up without trusting your intuition because you are taught not to push for your own desires.  I get the impression your father was like this-- in what you say about him there doesn't seem to have been room for other points of view besides his.  And I think if we don't get to try out our opinions to see which ones work and which don't we never get to hone our intuition the way some folks do.

It is so weird when you realize that the N who is so confident has NO IDEA what he is talking about.  Then you have to go back and re-evaluate-- maybe you were right all along!  Maybe you do have the ability to see what is true.

It's a journey, for sure...

[onlyrenting]

David and V, This I believe is soooooooo the bottom line about being the N-supply.

I have found myself angry at times at my N-mother.
She too had been raised by a very bad N-mother and very N-father.
As an adult I know she was defective her self and shed her hurt to me.

Now I see how my ex is just a fool. My N-mother told me he was a fool, but she always told me my opinion was not valued and for me to have taken her advise would have played into more her her Nness.
I did not value her view of me or anyone else in my life that she wanted to control. I just rebeled and wanted to be right for once. I was wrong and feel fooled by a fool. How depressing to think such people exist.

I believed he was always more worldly, more well read, more everything I was not. With N-mother made me believe I was always out in left field about my thoughts and belief system. This belief of myself was her view of me, made me perfect prey for another N.  I was young and pist off and hated that this wonderful N wanted to be with me. I was unlovable by my N-mother  and now wanted by someone who could relate to my disapointed life at home. We wanted to save each other from our N-parents.

I do believe when people get together and think it's love, the roots of pain are often from the same origin.
Both of our roots of pain were from our mothers. This causes a bond that can be very deep and will blind all other reason.  I then believed from my faulty belief system all the red flags were to be ignored,  were not red flags but some other color not ever wanting to hurt me..........I often felt after running away from home, I would never do that again and would stay and put up with whatever. My sisters always stayed so I guess I was overreacting and would stay where I was and feel lucky.

As an adult sorting the facts about N's , leaves me glad I left all the Ns in my life and will move on with confidence that I was right about all the red flags, I thought were not.

OR