Question about narcissism

[Gail]

Can anyone explain to me why some people who are raised by narcissistic and/or abusive parents become narcissistic and abusive themselves, while others become overly empathetic?

I think about X BF and myself.  His response to being raised by an N-mom was to become determined that no one would ever "control" him--made the conscious decision never to marry, never to have children, never to let anyone "tell him what to do."  He could very clearly communicate how painful his childhood was and how wrong it is for parents to treat children the way he was treated.  Yet, he is very judgmental, critical, and controlling himself, but doesn't see it!  If he had children, I am pretty sure he would have been a very critical father and one who tried to control his children "for their own good".  I might be misjudging him, but he made quite a few negative comments about mine even though he had absolutely no involvement in their lives, only meeting them briefly.

My response to my upbringing was the opposite.  I became a people pleaser, overly concerned with meeting other people's needs, and unsure of my own judgment.  I would defer to others opinions, even when making serious, life changing decisions.  I'm embarrassed to say that I even married my first husband, after deciding not to, because the woman giving my wedding shower was upset about the possibility of having to cancel it.  (In my defense, I was very young, but still...)

I'm just trying to understand why the different reactions--one person becoming very unempathetic and one becoming overly empathetic.

Gail

[David P]

Gail, I think that the answer to you question is this- the children of N parents either imitate the N's behavior and subsequently abuse others, or adopt an overly empathic relationship with others.
Maybe the imitators are relating to the N at some level and decide to be like them because that way 'power' lies. N's always appear to get more cookies than their victims.

The empathic group decides to be as different as they can and vigilantly guard other people feelings and welfare against hurt and harm. This group probably providesus  with T's, counselors ,teachers and nurses etc.
Just my thoughts out loud -

DP

[Brigid]

Gail,
I often wonder about this too.  When I look at how different my brother and I are as to how we responded to our upbringing--he wants nothing to do with people and relationships and I thrive on those relationships and would be lost without them.  My xh, also raised by a very n father, is very different from my brother and I and from his own 3 siblings.  I can only surmise that it has a lot to do with the innate personality of each individual and how they process the experiences of their lives.  Those of us with children (and you have a bunch), know that even when they are raised in a very happy and healthy environment, are very different individuals who march to their own drummer.

Just my 2 cents.

Brigid

[Awen]

Gail,

Wow, someone else that got married in spite of their better judgement in order not to disappoint... in my case it was relatives rather than a friend, but no real difference.  I went to the alter with the words of my higher power or intuition ringing in my head "this is the worst mistake you will ever make" - yet I dared not walk away and hurt anyone. (other than myself).

 and all these years I denied any self-abuse, seeing as I didn't cut, do drugs/alcohol, etc.  wonder if I fooled anypne but myself there?


David P. I bet you are right on the money!

[mudpuppy]

Hi Gail,

I would guess they are just different sides of the same coin of survival. Any kid in an abusive home is going to seek a method to survive the abuse.
Either you survive by joining the team and engaging in the abuse yourself, which causes the abuse by higher ups of the individual who has joined the team to stop (as long as he continues to be a loyal member of the team.)
Or you survive by trying to please your abusers which often stops the abuse temporarily but in the long run encourages it.
People that do the first sell their soul for survival.
People that do the second invite a lifetime of abuse, for a temporary respite from their crazy families.

The terrible thing is it just little kids not even realizing the choices they are making; they're just trying to survive.

My main question is what is it about the wiring of people's brains that makes it so hard to unlearn these behaviors as adults?

mud

[Gail]

The empathic group decides to be as different as they can and vigilantly guard other people feelings and welfare against hurt and harm. This group probably providesus  with T's, counselors ,teachers and nurses etc.
Just my thoughts out loud -

DP

I could really relate to this.  I consciously tried very hard to be different from my Nparent.  I was embarrassed by how seemingly mean she could be to others and felt it was a reflection on me.  So, I was as "nice" as I could be to everyone.  Of course, that made me less than an authentic person. 

One of the cruelest things my XH ever said to me was that I was just like my N parent when I protested his actions.  He knew how badly I had been hurt by her, so this was a very low blow.  After that, I knew I would never, ever go back to him.   X BF did something similar.  When I told him something he was doing was hurtful, he said I was "critical"  and "controlling."  (This was a guy who constantly put me down and habitually found fault with choices I made.) 

I had an insight related to this.  I think that some N's consciously or sub-consciously know how badly N-ablers want to be thought of as nice, accommodating people.  So, they can control us by just suggesting that maybe we are mean or critical.  That pushes all the right buttons to get us back in line.

How to overcome this?  I guess the first step is self awareness--both of our own unhealthy patterns of behavior and also the awareness of others' ability to exploit them.

Gail

[miss piggy]

Hi Gail,

I think one reason why siblings can have different responses to an N parent is because their temperaments will be different, so their preferences for survival style will be different.  I also strongly feel that a certain amount of Nness (like temperament) comes preprogrammed compliments of Mother Nature and Charles Darwin.  Honestly I think ######## Ns are wired differently.  Some Ts will tell you its trauma and perhaps it is, but again, some traumatized individuals do not turn into psychopaths. 

I think my Nbro wanted to topple my Ndad in the worst way, two alpha dogs in the pit.  They're just born fighters.  My other bro is fully castrated.  I am disqualified from alpha status by my gender.    Although there again, my gender is one thing and my temperament is definitely skewed towards introspection.  I'm very uncomfortable in the role of dominator because I can see the pain in the other person's being. 

My two cents...MP

[Bloopsy]

 maybe it has to do with the roles that the child is put into in the family.

[CeeMee]

Gail,

What a great question and thank you for asking it.  I too have wondered about this issue when I came across an article with the help of folks on this board that talks about Co-dependents vs. Counterdependants.

Codependents
"People who depend on other people for their emotional gratification and the performance of Ego or daily functions. They are needy, demanding, and submissive. They fear abandonment, cling and display immature behaviours in their effort to maintain the "relationship" with their companion or mate upon whom they depend. No matter what abuse is inflicted upon them – they remain in the relationship. By eagerly becoming victims, codependents seek to control their abusers.
See also the definition of the Dependent Personality Disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-IV-TR, 2000).

Inverted Narcissist
"Also called "covert narcissist", this is a co-dependent who depends exclusively on narcissists (narcissist-co-dependent). If you are living with a narcissist, have a relationship with one, if you are married to one, if you are working with a narcissist, etc. – it does NOT mean that you are an inverted narcissist.
To "qualify" as an inverted narcissist, you must CRAVE to be in a relationship with a narcissist, regardless of any abuse inflicted on you by him/her. You must ACTIVELY seek relationships with narcissists and ONLY with narcissists, no matter what your (bitter and traumatic) past experience has been. You must feel EMPTY and UNHAPPY in relationships with ANY OTHER kind of person. Only then, and if you satisfy the other diagnostic criteria of a Dependent Personality Disorder, can you be safely labelled an "inverted narcissist"."

Counterdependents
"Most "classical" (overt) narcissists are counterdependent. Their emotions and needs are buried under "scar tissue" which had formed, coalesced, and hardened during years of one form of abuse or another. Grandiosity, a sense of entitlement, a lack of empathy, and overweening haughtiness usually hide gnawing insecurity and a fluctuating sense of self-worth.
Counterdependents are contumacious (reject and despise authority), fiercely independent, controlling, self-centered, and aggressive. They fear intimacy and are locked into cycles of hesitant approach followed by avoidance of commitment. They are "lone wolves" and bad team players.

Counterdependence is a reaction formation. The counterdependent dreads his own weaknesses. He seeks to overcome them by projecting an image of omnipotence, omniscience, success, self-sufficiency, and superiority.

Codependence is an important and integral part of narcissism. Narcissists are either counterdependent or codependent (Inverted)."

This was so enlightening and so true in my own family experience, I could not discount it.  I have tried to find more information on this without much luck.  As others have said in response to your question, I too believe that the route one takes in response to N parents will depend on the personality type.  Each of us finds a way to have our needs met.  Some fight fiercely for them to be met (those are the counterdependents) and others use submission and pleasing (inverted narc and co-dependents).

My interpretation of this article is my own.  Perhaps I've misunderstood something here. Please let me know what you think.

C

[CeeMee]

Here is the website and author of above information:

http://samvak.tripod.com/faq66.html

Sam Vaknin is the author.  He writes a lot on the subject of N.  I guess he's the N guru as there is very little else on the subject that I can find on the Internet.

[Bloopsy]

HI I was reading this article and it said that some people take out the "perpetrator" part of their personality that formed during abuse  on themselves and some take it out on others. It didn't say anything about why someone would sdo either thing, but also said that sociopathy develops from trauma and dissociation in the brain,I think from the prefrontal cortex or something.