musings on children/freedom

[mum]

I just had to bring this over, from a link on Vaknin that Hoppy suggested on the "what helps" area....

Children of Narcissists
Narcisstic parents typically look to the child to meet their needs. This expectation is harmful to the child's overall mental health, which carries into adulthood. It is very similar to children raised in alcoholic homes. These homes appear "normal and healthy" to the outside world. It is often the children who suffer, and suffer alone. In homes such as these, the child's job is to make sure the parent's needs are being filled. In doing such, their identity, not to mention their "true feelings" are stuffed deep within them. They know something isn't right, but the family looks so perfect on the outside, that often it is the child who is blamed. Hence, children from these homes are often overlooked because the adult narcissist will make sure things "look good" on the outside. Children will not really understand what their feelings are, because the true expression of feelings is discouraged in a house run by a narcisstic parent. Often the child struggles alone.

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This is EXACTLY what is going on for my children with their father....not that I have any great idea on what to do about it....but it's good to see it in print.
Beyond focusing on what good we can do for our sweethearts struggling with this, I am at a loss. But here is my latest thinking:

I am done fighting him. I am done fighting my teenagers battles with dad for them. I have already spent about two years salary defending myself and my children's interests in courts for years and I want to hang up the boxing gloves and walk out of the ring. And then the true fighting will begin, between children and father. The courts do not allow me to speak for them, he does not allow me to speak for them, and they are routinely silenced or twisted in knots when they speak up for themselves to him... and so, are again silenced. ( you see the cycle, no?: then they cry to me, I fight the next battle for them, it becomes me and him again,,,,etc)

 I am convinced my exN's main focus in life is to "punish" ME for leaving his cheating arse, and the children are the weapons.
The most freeing thought I had today (after yet another $250 conversation with my lawyer) was that  I should just walk away and let him pay whatever child support he wants, and go ahead and let him manipulate the visitation and the children's wishes regarding it to meet his convenience....oh, and also allow him to "make up" his visitation time lost while he flies around the world (that's the latest addition to his demands).
What's the worst that could happen? That the kids have to duke it out with dad, and finally see what my involvement only clouds?: That he is so very selfish and lacking in empathy, and that he indeed manipulates what they say to meet his own needs.

How bad could that be for a kid to find out? They will see that if they are afraid to speak up for themselves then they take whatever their own silence on the matter produces (which is not physical abuse or anything, just not being heard, over and over and more time at dad's whether they want it or not, their schedules and time bending to dad's convenience, etc.)

What if I didn't care so much? What if I let these young people deal with the real dad? I am realizing the longer I am an intermediary, the longer he gets to fight with me.  Who will he fight if I agree to everything he wants? Maybe agree and just say: put in a clause that allows the children to get what they want, and a legal way for them to speak and be heard....if he argues with that, well then, he is a bigger fool than I thought.

What if I walk away and let my kids OWN their relationship with their very tricky, subliminal abuser, who they just happen to love because he is their father (add a dose of guilt into that definition of love, too).

What if?

[Hopalong]

Hey Mum,
Wrote you a long reply around 3 am and hit the wrong button. Anyway, the gist of it was that you've done a triumphant job getting them up to teenage-hood. As long as the visitation doesn't get so frequent that you worry about him harming them more than he already does (like, if the time doubled so your influence wasn't there for them as strongly)---as long as that doesn't happen, don't you think they may be ready if they're teeenagers? If they don't get to the place where they learn stand up to him themselves, for themselves, it can be harder to differentiate later.

I know on another recent thread there was a lot of debate about the delicate task of talking to a young child about a parent's narcisissm. I really do wish there were a good book about it for little kids.

But teenagers can read anything. I was wondering if you'd read the book, Why Is It Always About You? --- that's a clear straightforward book about Nism, that might not overwhelm them. (I'd avoid Vaknin, myself, for adolescents...he's basically a horror writer and I think takes some fairly sadistic pleasure in what he writes.) You could just leave a copy in the liviing room, another in the kitchen, etc.

If they ask about it you could say, I just think this is a helpful book, I like reading this kind of thing.

What do you think?

Hopalong

[Sela as guest]

Hi Mum:

I hear your frustration and how worn out you are feeling.  No wonder.  Years eh?  Fighting in court.  Has it helped at all?  I hope you got some things you wanted over all this time.

I should just walk away and let him pay whatever child support he wants, and go ahead and let him manipulate the visitation and the children's wishes regarding it to meet his convenience....oh, and also allow him to "make up" his visitation time lost while he flies around the world ...

Provided.......you could manage if you ever end up on your own again (not to sound pessimistic about your current relationship.  Just to check every possibility, to be safe.  I love to think of the worst possible thing that can happen eh. ).

You could spend........5, 6, 7? more years battling back and forth in court?  That would cost how much?
Would you end up ahead financially?

I just don't understand courts.  Why is it such a big deal to make people take responsibility for their children financially?  Why do parents have to fight so hard to try to get what their children need and would otherwise get.....if the marriage were intact?  It is dispicable!!  A sin!!  I'm so sorry that you've had to do this, over and over, for so long and especially.....have not been served justice for your kids.  It's really shameful that the courts can't do better than that.  Always......the undertone of trying to be fair to both parties.  Fair my arse!!   The only ones that get fair deal are the lawyers!  They retire on what kids should be using to further their education.....or for some........for the necessities of their young lives!

What's the worst that could happen? That the kids have to duke it out with dad, and finally see what my involvement only clouds?: That he is so very selfish and lacking in empathy, and that he indeed manipulates what they say to meet his own needs.

How bad could that be for a kid to find out?

It will probably cause some hurt.  But you are not responsible for his behaviour and can't keep "cloud" ing it forever.  My bet is....they already realize some truth but aren't saying so.  

They will see that if they are afraid to speak up for themselves then they take whatever their own silence on the matter produces (which is not physical abuse or anything, just not being heard, over and over and more time at dad's whether they want it or not, their schedules and time bending to dad's convenience, etc.)

If he forces them to visit when they have other things to do that they are really looking forward to, if he refuses to adjust...his...life/schedule sometimes to allow them to do the activities they enjoy, if they are not heard and have to miss out on that stuff......chances are high that they will resent him and it will drive them further away from him....emotionally.  When they are old enough that he has no power over visitation.....they may not want to see him much at all?   It might all come out in the wash.

What if I let these young people deal with the real dad?

No one will die.

Maybe agree and just say: put in a clause that allows the children to get what they want, and a legal way for them to speak and be heard....if he argues with that, well then, he is a bigger fool than I thought.

I'm not sure I understand this clause.  I don't know the law or much about legal stuff.  Ofcourse, if they wanted to use the clause.....wouldn't they need money to fight him themselves?  Or would you be back in the ball field because they're too young to do that?   I don't know.  I'm not sure about just giving him everything he wants either.   Is there a possible compromise?  Give him some of what he wants ....enough to get him to agree and shut the ________up for awhile???

What if I walk away and let my kids OWN their relationship with their very tricky, subliminal abuser, who they just happen to love because he is their father (add a dose of guilt into that definition of love, too).

It's not easy to keep going sometimes.  You must do what you must to maintain your sanity.  They will be hurt, no doubt, as they realize what their father truly is.......but they will survive.  They have you, waiting at home, to hug them and tell them you understand.  Rather than them crying to you and you trying to fix it with him......they will just be crying to you and you will listen, validate and encourage their feelings.  That's fine parenting.  You are a great mom Mum.

Beating your head against a brick wall can only go on so long.......before your head becomes mush.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((Mum)))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Sela

[Plucky]

What if I let these young people deal with the real dad?
No one will die.

Hi Mum,
I agree with this.  Also, it does not have to be so binary.  You don't have to 'walk away' but you can reduce the struggle.  I hear your exhaustion.  You are basically the only one fighting for what everyone should want and need.  it's not good for you to deplete yourself, not good for anyone.  So maybe just ease up for a while and see what happens.  If you don't fight back for a little while, it will not cement things forever.  You can always start up again after a little rest if things fall apart.

Your children are teens right?  and they have seen you fighting for their voice.  They can step into your shoes if you leave a space for them. 

And your H has to get the message that you are not the enemy, that things will be the same woth the children whether or not you are enforcing.
Good luck
Plucky

[mum]

thank you for the thoughtful replies.

Hopalong wrote:

But teenagers can read anything. I was wondering if you'd read the book, Why Is It Always About You? --- that's a clear straightforward book about Nism, that might not overwhelm them. (I'd avoid Vaknin, myself, for adolescents...he's basically a horror writer and I think takes some fairly sadistic pleasure in what he writes.) You could just leave a copy in the liviing room, another in the kitchen, etc.

Thanks, hoppy! I will look up this book tomorrow, and read it, and probably leave it around, like I do everything else...and they are used to seeing all kinds of stuff around the house....I don't know if they pick it up or not, though..........worth a try.

 

If they don't get to the place where they learn stand up to him themselves, for themselves, it can be harder to differentiate later.

I think this is absolutely right, Hoppy. I have been standing in the way of them learning the hard lesson, and I need to be out of that place now.

Bean wrote:

I must admit too, I'm a tad jealous, I never had someone around looking out for me!

Thanks for the kind words, Bean, but don't be jealous. That was your path....and it made you the articulate, loving person you are now. I need to remember this about my kids. Their dad is part of their path...and learning from him (how to stick up for themselves) is something I should not help them avoid.

Sela wrote:

Maybe agree and just say: put in a clause that allows the children to get what they want, and a legal way for them to speak and be heard....if he argues with that, well then, he is a bigger fool than I thought.

\]I'm not sure I understand this clause.  I don't know the law or much about legal stuff.  Ofcourse, if they wanted to use the clause.....wouldn't they need money to fight him themselves?

 Basically, it would be something to the effect that if the children do not want to be with either parent during that parent's "time", the kids could email the other parent if one parent refuses the request...basically, it would give the kids some leverage and a paper trail of refusals, etc.  And you are right to some extent, in that if there is a pattern of him not listening to them, all of this would be admissable in court... and that may be enough to get him to listen....but it won't really stop him from manipulating them, and it won't guarantee they will USE this little bit of leverage, either. 

Why do parents have to fight so hard to try to get what their children need and would otherwise get.....if the marriage were intact?

Well put Sela. confounds me too.

You could spend........5, 6, 7? more years battling back and forth in court?  That would cost how much?
Would you end up ahead financially

No, Sela, I would not end up ahead. It's not as much money here as the attorneys make on even one day of trial, really. He has dual citizenship in another country now, (one his wife's father is from) and since he is self employed, the money is well hidden and very hard to find. I have now spent approaching two years worth of my yearly salary to fight this idiot, I am in debt up to my eyeballs and have spent every penny of inheritance that has come my way as well as refinanced my house twice and taken out a second mortgage.  I shouldn't complain, really, as I have been extremely fortunate in that I am able to manage okay, I just make it work and my kids are not lacking....but you are right, the attorneys are the only ones getting anything (and it's a lot). His attorney is particularly unscrupulous, doing anything he says (even if she knows it's foolish) just to soak him, so I know he has spent even more. Between us, I am sure we could have paid for four years of my son's very expensive choice of college, instead of waiting on pins and needles for the results of his audition....(thank God, the kids are talented and smart!)

I'm not sure about just giving him everything he wants either.   Is there a possible compromise?  Give him some of what he wants ....enough to get him to agree and shut the ________up for awhile???

It's funny you ask this: He wont compromise, EVER. Typical narcissist, he just wants to WIN> he just "replied" to my offer to withdraw my request for changing the parenting time, by adding more time to his schedule with them AND requesting that I allow him to make up whatever time he misses when he travels (which is his job, essentially). My first reaction was: FIGHT that stupid thing, and even my lawyer said, "I can't believe his attorney isn't advising him not to ask for that as it would be unconstitutional and unenforceable............."
BUT part of me now thinks, he just added that because he LOVES to fight. So what if I say: fine! whatever! THen my kids may finally get pissed at how he yanks them around and do something for themselves! 
And all he would be able to really get, even without going to court is WHAT? What does flexible make up time LOOK like: dad says jump and we all say how high? Jeez, Louise, even if that got through, judges actually LOOK at agreements and that is simply ridiculous.

What if I let these young people deal with the real dad?
No one will die.

exactly.

Plucky wrote:

it does not have to be so binary.  You don't have to 'walk away' but you can reduce the struggle.  I hear your exhaustion.  You are basically the only one fighting for what everyone should want and need.  it's not good for you to deplete yourself, not good for anyone.  So maybe just ease up for a while and see what happens.  If you don't fight back for a little while, it will not cement things forever.  You can always start up again after a little rest if things fall apart.
Your children are teens right?  and they have seen you fighting for their voice.  They can step into your shoes if you leave a space for them. 
And your H has to get the message that you are not the enemy, that things will be the same woth the children whether or not you are enforcing.

You are right, Plucky. I will tell them I will help them as best I can. But I see this continued "fight" as part of why it has taken my so long to move on with my life. I am spending so much of my energy in this negativity that I have little time left to concentrate on MY life, what I need to do to be happy. It's this struggle that has kept me stuck. If I no longer struggle and leave the "fight" in the hands of those who NEED it to learn (my kids) then I will do us all a favor.

I know that my overprotectiveness of my kids has prolonged this. He never REALLY looks all that bad, and I become the intermediary that he can attack over and over.  I have already lost a ton of money agreeing to a "temporary" reduction in child support while this is going on (9 months now) and as soon as my son turns 18, (soon) dad will cut off his child support, because he can. 
I don't think my kids realize this, but I am not sure why I would avoid letting them know if it comes up. It's as if I want them to believe he is a better person than he really is. Doesn't that make me and enabler in a way?

Here is the bottom line, though. I am leaving this place in about 6 months. If he does not legally oppose my taking my daughter with me, then my daughter will be fine about the move (she told me this, repeatedly). But he will most likely oppose (even though he travels the world all the time) and put my daughter in the awful postion of deciding where she will live: with me, who stays in one spot, with a better job, my husband, my extended family, her brother at college, etc.,, OR with step mom, essentially, because dad goes away all the time, but in the same city but new school district from where she is now.....
I see this is just a precurser for the BIG fight on my poor daughter's door step.
So all this other stuff seems like a total waste of time and money at this point, and a big pot of Nstew cooked up to distract from the real issue....his losing control over me and my life. The option of my staying here alone without my husband,my family, and a way to get ahead financially is no longer available. And that is what fuels his fire. But I'm taking my ball and going home.

[Healing&Hopeful]

I'm not sure about just giving him everything he wants either.   Is there a possible compromise?  Give him some of what he wants ....enough to get him to agree and shut the ________up for awhile???

It's funny you ask this: He wont compromise, EVER. Typical narcissist, he just wants to WIN> he just "replied" to my offer to withdraw my request for changing the parenting time, by adding more time to his schedule with them AND requesting that I allow him to make up whatever time he misses when he travels (which is his job, essentially). My first reaction was: FIGHT that stupid thing, and even my lawyer said, "I can't believe his attorney isn't advising him not to ask for that as it would be unconstitutional and unenforceable............."
BUT part of me now thinks, he just added that because he LOVES to fight. So what if I say: fine! whatever! THen my kids may finally get pissed at how he yanks them around and do something for themselves! 
And all he would be able to really get, even without going to court is WHAT? What does flexible make up time LOOK like: dad says jump and we all say how high? Jeez, Louise, even if that got through, judges actually LOOK at agreements and that is simply ridiculous.

Hi Mum

I think you are doing an awesome job.  I'm not sure it's because he loves to fight.... it's possibly because he always has to be right, at whatever costs.  It is with my N dad anyhow.

My guess is your kids do kind of know that something is not right.... they probably don't understand it all, but why shouldn't they have the say so if they don't want to visit him?

H&H xx

[Brigid]

Hey mum,
I think you would be making a very wise decision to back off and let your kids find out who their father really is.  I do agree that the wording in the final decree should include "taking into consideration the desires of the child(ren)."  I did this for my daughter (she was 16 when the divorce was finalized), so that she would not be forced to spend any more time with her father than she chose (my son was over 18, so he can do whatever he wants).

Based on all that I have read about your ex, the fight is what he enjoys.  If you take away the fight, you will be castrating him and leaving him to his own devices.  I have done this with my ex, and I do not intervene in any way with the relationship he has with our children.  As time goes on, they spend less and less time with him, even though he lays on heavy guilt trips.  They are totally getting it now--what a child he is, how irresponsible he is, and that they cannot depend on him for anything.

Now that they are getting more comfortable being around my bf, they can see what a good dad is suppose to be like (my bf is a fabulous dad and his 4 kids adore him), and what a good relationship is suppose to look like.  I know that your new hubby is wonderful too and when they see you two together, they understand what real love is.

The move will be the tough part and I feel badly for your daughter that she will be pulled apart because of it.  But you need to be where your support and love is so that you can truly be happy.  You've done a great job as a mom and you have a right to be where you have peace and tranquility.  Hopefully, your choice to back off from fighting the battles will allow your kids to find their voices and learn to fight the battle with their dad until they can finally make the adult decision as to how he fits into their lives.

Sending peace and light,

Brigid

[mum]

Thank you H & H and Brigid, for your support and insights. I think I will use those exact words, Brigid. What would he have to bring me to court over then? That he doesn't want the children's desires included (love to see his money hungry lawyer tell him that's a good idea to tell a judge....)?  Seriously, I just don't know what else he can do.
I won't spell it out, but the latest OSC he filed with the court (to make sure the visitation thing is NOT dropped) is so packed with lies and all out fabrications that it is hard not to either want to throw things or just laugh like a crazy woman! ALL of it could be dismantled by me with contrary emails, etc, proving he is just making stuff up, but WHY do I want to continue spending my energy and money proving a crazy man is crazy? It's just not where I want my energy.
I realize I am not so attached to "being right" as he is....if I were I could never let this crap go by, and that's what he wishes for, I guess. Big surprise coming his way.

Today I saw the dissapointment my kids feel in the "arrangements" made to make up time while a**h*** was in Europe last week: my son came home after three days at a workshop, 2 gigs and a rehearsal (hadn't really seen him for more than 5 minutes in 4 days) and says: "hi, Mom" (hugs, all happy) and then "oh, no, I just realized I have to go to Dad's" (complete body language change). I didn't say anything (like, I told you to think about what you REALLY want before saying "whatever" to your dad's requests.....) and just gave him a kiss and said, "see you tomorrow".
OH, well....I can't be the buffer anymore. It doesn't work.
Thanks again for the encouragement and helpful sharing.