Author Topic: My story of dealing with narcissistic parents and how I got over it  (Read 8262 times)

the_evil_richie

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Re: My story of dealing with narcissistic parents and how I got over it
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2005, 07:17:44 AM »
Hi Sela,

  A personality is basically the conglomeration of everything a person feels, thinks and does, and a personality disorder is a long-term conglomeration of personality traits that deviate from social norms and which create distress.

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So.........that would mean.....when neuropathways are simply not there......they don't just appear, because a girlfriend's psychologist and family... come to understand what they decide are THE SYMPTOMS and APPLY a LABEL, to you and begin their own version of aversion therapy.

I've never seen a neuropathway and I doubt your friend has either - it's not something that you can dissect during an autopsy. The diagnostic criteria for personality disorders are not based upon brain autopsies, electroencephalogram data or mysterious "neuropathways" that only state-licensed psychiatrists possess the ability to comprehend, but I think I know what you mean when you say neuropathway. I think you mean the result of the long-term repetition of thoughts, feelings and behaviors that seem to neurologically embed themselves in the brain when they've occurred on a regular basis for an extended period - so much so that people stop speaking in terms of 'psycho' and begin speaking in terms of 'neuro' instead.

But you're right, my brain didn't change neurologically the moment that my girlfriend's psychologist and family decided to apply a label to me, and that's probably why I didn't say that it did, but strangely you seem to want board readers to think that I did apply that logic and am ever-so-confused and befuddled in my little world of tryin' to feel all better. Why do you think that is?

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I realize, you say you are NOW not an N......BUT....what I am painstakingly pointing out to you...is that according to the above information, you could not have ever been one....because YOU DO seem to feel empathy and have deep regret for your actions

There are all kinds of conflicting ideas about whether or not personalities are malleable and capable of changing after a certain point. Some psychologists think that a person's brain siezes and you stay the same person after age 30 or so, other psychologists think that you can change who you are at the very core until it's time to start picking social security checks. Who and what I am at the core has changed completely, and it was the result of long-term social isolation, lots of exercise and learning how to think about why people do and feel what they do. Yes, I was a narcissist, and in some ways I still am a narcissist, but I'm not a pathological narcissist.

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N's don't feel empathy....nor show regret because they aren't aware/can't admit that they've injured because they can't feel for their victims....those signals don't get to their brains....there's no pathway there

That may be the case for some psychopaths, but it isn't case in my family. The narcissists that I know, my old SELF included make "leaps of logic" that allows one to circumvent having to feel empathy (or perhaps push a thought down what might be described by your friend as an "empathy neuropathway"). In both my mother and father's case, it has become clear time and time again that they are well-aware of what they're doing, and well-aware of the negative impact that they're having, but that they make the "leap of logic" from the fact that they're doing something harmful, abusive and perhaps overtly violent to the idea that they're only violent and abusive because they're "teaching" me to be "good" because I am inherently "bad" somehow.

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Do you see what I'm saying or why?  If you think you were an N and are now cured of it......you are a medical miracle....because as far as I know......NDP is not curable.  It doesn't go away, Richie.  The neuro pathyways are not there.

 They're absent.  And nothing but magic or a miracle....can make them be there.

Reading about the narcissist sometimes feels like reading a book that was written specifically for me, as though it were describing what it was like to be me when I was a teenager. There is absolutely no doubt that I was a pathological narcissist, but again, those narcissistic feelings, thoughts and tendencies are gone. I feel like I've been about a thousand different people since my early 20's, I've been through so many phases.

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any plans to leave their house yet?

Yes, many plans and options - I'm going to be fine. :)

Portia

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Re: My story of dealing with narcissistic parents and how I got over it
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2005, 08:19:05 AM »
Hi Richie and Sela this is one of my favourite subjects!  :D

Richie, I’m interested in this because of my parents. The question of whether or not severely personality disordered people can change their minds (their brain functioning) will possibly be of interest to many members here (because we might hold out a glimmer of hope that our narcissistic parents/partners/siblings/friends will change – which is probably somewhat of a diversion from looking at our own problems). Hope you see my point?

Richie you said:
But you're right, my brain didn't change neurologically the moment that my girlfriend's psychologist and family decided to apply a label to me,
 :idea: How do you know that your brain didn’t change?  I’ve been reading some of this particular site (although you could find others pretty easily on the subject – I liked the positive outlook on this one). I’ve bolded some parts myself….

http://www.uta.edu/psychology/faculty/levine/saopaulopaper83001.htm

Effects of Experience on the Brain
Babies do not have fully developed brains when they are born. If they did, they would not be able to fit through the birth canal. So the human brain must instead continue to develop outside the mother's womb for many years after the baby is born.

Psychologists have long told us that parents, other caregivers, and peers all have considerable influence on how a child develops. But we are also learning from neuroscience how deeply this influence affects brain structure and biochemistry.

The behavioral physiologist Donald Hebb (1949) proposed that such effects of experience could be mediated by a change at the synapse (connection) between two neurons (brain cells) if the two neurons are electrically active at about the same time. But most neurophysiologists resisted the idea of a change at the synapse until it was demonstrated by electrical recordings from single neurons. The first such demonstration was published in 1965 and occurred in California sea slug. The first such observation in a mammal was published in 1973 and occurred in the hippocampus, a memory encoding area, of the rabbit (Bliss & Lømo, 1973).

Because of such findings, most neuroscientists now agree that day-to-day events can cause changes in the chemistry of neural transmitters at some synapses. The exact biochemical mechanisms for these changes are not yet well worked out. Results are coming quickly, however, both from biochemical studies of neural transmitters and from imaging that indicates which regions of the brain are metabolically active in the presence of specific stimuli.

Such results suggest that if there is a pattern of stimulation, such as a pattern of caring or abusive treatment of a child, there would be lasting effects on synapses. And studies of chronically abused children confirm this supposition.

Humans and other animals possess an elaborate biological system for coping with stress. Responses in different parts of the brain, the endocrine glands, the immune system, and the cardiovascular system are coordinated to produce characteristic biochemical changes in response to unpleasant or potentially threatening environmental events. This interconnected system serves useful functions in evolution: it prepares the body for either fighting the stressful event or withdrawing from it.

Under normal circumstances, when the stressful events cease, the stress-based profile disappears and the body recovers its normal biochemical configuration. When the stresses are too severe or persistent, however, as with children who are physically or sexually abused repeatedly***, the recovery cannot take place fast enough to keep up with the new stresses that occur. In this case, the biochemical configuration often changes permanently, with lasting damage to the personality.
…………………………………………….

So when we engage in uncaring behavior, we may be trapped in a compulsive pattern, or not know we have an alternative. This means the availability of an alternative can lead to a readjustment, regulated by the prefrontal cortex, of the set points for reward that the uncaring behavior disrupted. This suggests that uncaring behavior is reversible when there is sufficient social support.
……………………….
While some criminals may be deficient in brain pathways involved in empathy, this may not be the majority of criminals. And even those who do have brain damage often have acquired it through childhood abuse or head injury. It is even less likely that brain damage accounts for the behavior of people who are part of a destructive system, such as Nazi officials or executives of polluting corporations.
...............................

*** my asterisks - I wonder if severe emotional abuse could also be included here? Who knows.

Big subject. No black and white answers I guess but it seems as though those neuroscientists can see neural connections lighting up - or not - and can make some inferences based on their research. Anyone got anything more recent on this?

Hope I'm not hijacking your thread Richie. I'm just not sure how much other interest there might be in this subject. It's a bit errrr out there I guess.

Portia

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Re: My story of dealing with narcissistic parents and how I got over it
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2005, 08:40:47 AM »
Richie:

In both my mother and father's case, it has become clear time and time again that they are well-aware of what they're doing, and well-aware of the negative impact that they're having, but that they make the "leap of logic" from the fact that they're doing something harmful, abusive and perhaps overtly violent to the idea that they're only violent and abusive because they're "teaching" me to be "good" because I am inherently "bad" somehow.

Projecting all their split-off crap onto you. They’re violent and abusive because that’s all they know. Only people who were abused will become adult abusers. How many criminals come from genuinely loving homes?

Many, many people truly believe that children are born sinful, wicked and wilful and that these traits have to driven out of them by physical and emotional ‘training’. “My father used to beat me six times a day and it never did me any harm” – type of people. They truly cannot see past their own abusive childhoods. Why? Because they’re time and time again protecting their internal images of their parents. Parents are good; ergo I must be bad. My parents beat me, therefore beating is good. I will be good and beat my children. (My children are bad because all children are bad – just like I was: I must have been bad because my loving parents beat me…..etc etc.)

Richie it’s the hardest thing in the world to admit that our parents didn’t love us, couldn’t love us. You’ve done that. Many people don’t do it. People like your parents.

We were all babies once. That doesn’t mean we *should* forgive our parents (an explanation is not an excuse). It’s just saying that for every abuser there is an explanation and if we understand that, we understand why it still goes on.

Did your parents really know what they were doing to you? Does a five year-old really know what he/she is doing? I don’t think it’s a leap of logic being made. I think it’s simply repetition compulsion and acting out. You are different. You are not like your parents. You’ve grown up, they haven’t. That’s what I think anyway.

Portia

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Re: My story of dealing with narcissistic parents and how I got over it
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2005, 08:58:21 AM »
Okay last one, I just read about Friday. Good grief. I hope you get a smart shrink, otherwise, I don’t know! Why isn’t your father going too? Is this a family session or just a mother-son thing? What is her/their objective with this session?

Maybe you should ask that first and get the objective clarified – for the shrink and you. Lady(ies) and gentleman(men), what’s the practical purpose of this meeting?

Suppose it’s for you and her to ‘get along better’.

All you need to say is: “Okay, I got a bit emotional recently and did some shouting in the yard. I’m much better now and it won’t happen again. In fact I’m planning to live elsewhere, it’s about time I left the parental home. I need my privacy and my own place.”

You come across as reasonable and sane. What can she say? If the shrink wants you to talk about the details, you can refuse. I guess she’ll do all the talking. And I’d let her talk. The more she says, the more apparent her agenda will be, if she’s got one.

the counseling session may just be a way for her and my father to glean information about how to make sure that they'll be able to get away with what they did

Why shouldn’t they “get away with what they did”? I don’t understand?

Sela

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Re: My story of dealing with narcissistic parents and how I got over it
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2005, 09:33:24 AM »
Hi again Richie:

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... strangely you seem to want board readers to think....

Actually, Richie, that's not what I want at all.  I was trying to share what I've learned with you.

I guess there is all kinds of information out there about this stuff and depending on what a person comes across and what makes sparks fly for us, each will find answers that help us understand our own experience.  I'm glad what you've learned has helped you.  That's the most important thingy anyway. :D

(and I was truly kidding around about the feet thing.....I'm wondering if maybe it didn't come across that way?  If so, I'm very sorry.  I have certain expertise in the.... putting of feet in mouth department  :oops: :oops:and so I picked up on the reference to feet...and tried to joke about it.  I like to kid around a lot but I sure did not mean any insult, just in case it seemed like that) :D.

I like Portia's response to you about Friday much better than mine.   I hope it goes well  and some good comes of it, if at all possible.  Let us know how it goes, if you want to.

I'm glad you have plans to leave there and options.  That's great!  Good for you Richie!!

 :D Sela

wally

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Re: My story of dealing with narcissistic parents and how I got over it
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2005, 02:24:30 AM »
Hi Ritchie,

New to the recordings, just listening to the part 2 recordings.  Your father successfully assimilated two out of three of his family.  In my opinion you were never an option for assimilation for fear that your being a male, held the potential for his dominance to be bucked (physically) one day.  Your potential dominance apparently existed in his mind since day one for you.  If he could not assimilate you for competition reasons(you instinctively fought back with "I didn't do anything wrong".......he ran because he was discovered), well then he had better to do the next best thing, defeat you, banish you from yourself, physically make you fear him in hopes to ingrain fear forever, therefore never losing dominance even when you would don your manhood.  You were and are such a threat that the elaborate conscripton of your bio-M and bio-S worked out perfectly for him.  his dirty work was and is at work 24/7 and even if he was not there it is masterfully orchestrated remotely through his omnipotence, and omniscience over them (bio-M and bio-S).
     My biggest question and I think that others have indicated this in prior post's is why are you still there?  Obviously you are at a stage now that you can tip the scales, and potentially could play their own sickness against them.  To hear your leathered amusement at times on the recordings is beautiful, because it reeks of healthy.  Healthy can turn unhealthy with the wrong motives.  I hope that you don't make more life with them than you need to at this point.  I would not want anyone telling me what they think I should be doing with my N mom, so I will kindly slap myself for half of what I am saying here.  What you have done has helped me, I went for a walk tonight.  I want to go on another one tomorrow.

I can't for the life of me remember much anything but fragments from k-8th grade.  I don't even remember my mother much, and I lived with her.  Perhaps it will come back and answer some of the pain.  Luckily in the mean time I have a wonderful wife and children.  Hope all is well for you.  You have navigated thus far even while you sit on the hole of the asp, so why wouldn't you be able to come out the better man anyways.  I guess your just ready to dance now, and hey whats wrong with one last dance.

Not trying to provoke just observing, scold me if you must.

Wally



"If I fake it, then I don't have it"
---Bill Murray in "What about Bob"