Emotional Vampires

[tejaspear]

It see it pretty much the same way. Actually there seem to be many examples of folks who have done great works for masses of human beings but were inept or even hurtful in their personal primary relationships. I am certainly grateful to them for the good changes they have made.

My take on it is this: if they can do good for the world that's great. Meanwhile people who are susceptible to being hurt by them on a personal level will need to make boundaries, recover, and sometimes just cut them off.

It's kind of nice in a way to realize that some people, even though unable to give love to those they might obviously should give it to can have a good effect on a scale that helps a lot of people they never met.

It kind of reminds me to hate the disease (such as N or codependence), not the person. After all, there are plenty of N folk in history who did things that effected masses of people in very destructive ways.

As someone who has been too vulnerable to N's and codependents of N's in my personal life, I know I'm someone who needs to have a boundary for myself to keep an arm's distance from such people, that is, avoid having close personal relationships with them, even when what they are doing may very well help others -- for my own sanity and self-protection.

[Hopalong]

Hear, hear. That's clarity.

Hops

[Marta]

SImply because Eleanor's children felt neglected doesn't mean that she was an N. She may just not have had motherly instinct, or may be an abused child herself, or may have gotten so caught up in issues larger than herself that she neglecged the little ones. Even Gandhi's eldest son felt very neglected, turned against his father, visited hookers, and died of STD. Having rewad his autobiography, I am very certain that Gandhi was not an N.

The way I understand it, narcissism is always coupled with a decided destructive tendency and enjoyment from twisted acts. Take how Ns operate within the confines of their microcosm, their homes. They may give gifts, but not the ones their kids want or need. How can they operate any differently at larger, social level, actually engaging in acts which are much needed by the poor rather than the ones they think are needed?

Marta

[tejaspear]

Thanks for your thoughts, Marta!

Yes, I realized after posting that that I was erring to characterize all those examples as N. And it is true, no doubt at all, that those people were treated poorly by their own parents, etc. -- but then of course the same is true for an N (that they have had a childhood trauma, but which was possibly or even probably worse than most).

I have seen in myself and in others a desire, need -- even demand -- that our heroes, whether they be political, social or whatever, be exemplary not only in the role they play or played that makes them a hero, but also in all the other areas of their lives. I'm saying maybe this is unrealistic. Maybe MOST people who climb to fame or celebrity for their good works are not "all that" in their personal lives. Maybe how they interrelate to their children and spouses are even commonly flawed in a way that is hurtful to the children and spouses. Or maybe they have other qualities that some feel are inconsistent with their "somewhat holy" celebrity.

I'm saying that it may be unrealistic to expect people to be so "black and white" -- the bad guys and the good guys. I'm saying that even people who did wonderfully great things for masses of people have some black spots, and most of the time. One can hear complaints about Mother Teresa and Lady Di too (though Di obviously being the less saintly of the two, she accomplished much good).

I hear what you are saying that a characteristic of the N personality disorder it to engage in twisted acts they find pleasing in being destructive to others, but couldn't it be that some Narcissists overcome that or suppress that enough in their lives to achieve great works as well?

I'm grappling with this because I know two Ns who both obviously have the disease and whose acts and words have been torturesome and destructive to others. Both of these Ns have a VERY strong "spiritual identity," and both of them have -- literally -- helped people in some ways. (One has provided shelter to many people and also provides counseling -- some of which I have heard and can tell is good. He was after all a preacher for some years. The other does healing work and someone who worked with her swears that the healing work she did actually did produce results for many people.) These same two people are people I CANNOT personally tolerate in my own life, because rather than being one of the recipients of their largesse or healing works, I am someone who they want something from. And both have the potential, should I let them into my life as far as they would choose to go, of literally destroying me -- if I could tolerate being destroyed.

In other words, there is zero question in my mind that both of these two people are N's. They both fit more than the minimum number of criteria.

But do I really have to think of their lives as a total waste or being totally bad? Since they ARE helping some people? And might it not also be possible that there HAVE been a few N's in history that actually did more good for the masses than harm to the unfortunate few that were in their immediate lives?

(You may not be surprised to learn that my best friend has oftened colored me as a "damned Pollyanna.")

[solayads]

Hello Tejaspear:

What brought me to this board was my wretched experience with two "N" preachers (husband & wife).  I can truthfully say that they wrecked more havoc on the lives than helped them.  They, too, consider themselves to be spiritual people as they ride around in their cars, soliticit exhorbitant amounts of money from members of the church, purchase several houses, open businesses--all on the financial backs of other people.

I've learned that spirituality moves an individual to examine whether one's motives are pure.  This "checking" of oneself based on the healthy motives enables us to exercise qualities that are healing, supportive, and encouraging to other humans --  rather than practicing oppressive, destructive, deceitful, hateful things.

When we honestly assess our motives behind our actions, it usually will force us to humble ourselves..... we will not be "top dog" in the world.  We would have to forget about being "front and center stage" in the eyes of everyone else. 

I have found that this is one of the main causes of discord with NPD's.  They cannot stand taking a back set to anyone or anything --- even if a person is dying. 

Their objective is ONLY to be in the public's eye because they desire all the praise and honor---which they feel entitled to.  Never mind the accomplishments of others.  N's cancel out everyone else accomplishments, dreams, goals just to herald their own.

There are people in the world who do wonderful things for fellow humans.....but you may never read about it in paper or see their face in the news.  And you know what?  They're okay with that.  They look for no credit  in return nor do they feel entitled to drain or use people.  They help others because in their spirit, they know it is the right thing to do.

That is the difference between "N's" and ordinary people.   End of story.....

[Marta]

Teja:
And might it not also be possible that there HAVE been a few N's in history that actually did more good for the masses than harm to the unfortunate few that were in their immediate lives?

1. I can imgine an N being a good actor, a good rockstar, but I just don't believe that someone totally lacking in empathy can ever make a good social worker.

2. To really excel at anything, you have to have a certain spirituality within you, a tendency to devote yourself to something larger than yourself, which Ns simply lack. Hence I can't really think of very many examples where an N really did something truly spectacular.

3. You can't really evaluate the impact Ns have had on the world through their own lenses. My mom certainly thinks of herself as a very good mother, and for good many decades, she convinced me too.

4. I don't think every act that Ns engage in is pure evil. That simply wouldn't wash, now would it?

5. One must be very, very careful in evaluating impact of an N spiritual guru on oneself, as real effects of N destructiveness are felt only after one has been with them for a certain period of time. But I have seen many examples of people totally transformed through following even an N guru. I don't attribute this to the influence of the guru, but to the group which gathers around him.

6. Evaluating life of an N as worthy or unworthy is a really complex metaphysical question. Sometimes even lying or a placebo helps people. I personally don't use the criteria of actual impact one has had to judge worthiness of one's existence. There are so many creators who died without achieving fame or having had great impact on the world during their lifetime. So at that point their life would be unworthy and afterwards, when they become famous, they'd be worthy? I feel that human beings should be evaluated based on their character, and that is where Ns never cut the mark.

[tejaspear]

Thanks for what you have shared, Solayads and Marta!

A lot of very good points. This N I am talking about by the way has not been a preacher for many years, but continues with the self-identity as a preacher. Not having had him as my preacher, and not having viewed his life except through his telling of it, now that you mention it I would not be surprised if what you say is true about N preachers creating havoc on all the lives they touch.

Most definitely, without the millions and millions of people who do genuine kindnesses every day this world would be a totally different one.

In my recent unfortuntate experience of becoming committed to the codependent of an ex-wife N, I found myself wishing I could love her almost as much as he does; that somehow that would make me feel better. I can only be repulsed by how she treated him for so many years.

I think it's my own ego or feelings of humiliation at being dumped for the likes of an unapologetic and tyrannical N that makes me wish I could see lots of good in her. I mean, what does that say about ME that he would give me up for someone so awful, awful, awful?! He knows what she did to him and he knows she's a narcissist. He's the one who told ME she was an N. It just feels so awful to have the person I THOUGHT loved me choose such an unattractive situation over me. i guess that is why I wish I could believe him that she is truly spiritual. I don't know. I'm still feeling so hurt and betrayed..............!!!!  ;(

[Marta]

I mean, what does that say about ME that he would give me up for someone so awful, awful, awful?!

Nothing really. Ways of the heart are quite mysterious. Napolean ruled the world but one woman he really wanted shamelessly cheated on him.

Rather than believing that he has some issues, you want to believe that she is better than you and therefore he is justified in leavign you, eh? The only thing it says about you, IMHO, is that you were probably raised by an N and hence you'd rather give the benefit of doubt to others over yourself.

Take care, Marta

[roaring dad]

tejas,
I can really identify with that.  My ex became a guidance counselor, and as her illness is getting worse, she is trying to get certified to be a licensed counselor.  I can't remember where I read it, but it said a lot of Ns become therapists.  It allows them to feel better than others by helping them with their problems.

You also see Munchausen by Proxy in a lot of Ns.  Where someone deliberately hurts someone in order to save them.  For example firemen who set fires in order to be the hero that puts them out or doctors who make people sicker in order to be the only one who can find the cure.

[tejaspear]

Oooo, reminds me of that scene in OMEN -- where the guy surreptitiously causes the woman to fall off the bridge into the water -- so that he can rescue her and thereby gain her trust and gratitude.

Yes, interesting about the psychologists. I read somewhere a long time ago that something like half of all psychologists get into the field mostly because they are trying to figure out their own abnormalities. My own uncle, (brother of my N mother), became a psychologist. He went back and forth between being a Preacher, Psychologist and Psychiatric Patient. I cut him off finally when he was being abusive to his mother, my grandmother -- and my grandmother refused to kick him out "because he's my son." I couldn't bear to watch it and told her that if he was staying I would leave. He stayed and I left. He stole all her money and she died in the way she most feared -- without money for a decent nursing home, indigent and alone. I found it very hard to cut him out of my life because I felt so sorry for him that ALL the other relatives (besides his mother) had cut him off. I was such a bleeding heart. But then when I had my own child I KNEW I did not want my child to have to have this man's influence in his life. By protecting my son, I learned to protect myself more.

Is there an epidemic of N folk, or is it just us children of N's that find them so numerous in our landscapes?

[roaring dad]

Is there an epidemic of N folk, or is it just us children of N's that find them so numerous in our landscapes?

I think, as with anything,  the more you become aware of something, the more you see it.  Before I knew about NPD, I never really thought about it.  Now that I think about it, I have seen newspaper articles and TV reports and etc. all over the place.

Plus our society fosters N.  Society has created a culture where the Ns get ahead and win.  Look at popular culture, shows like The Apprentice, any pop singer you choose.  They make themselves know by making themselves bigger than life at the expense of others.  Look in the work place.  Is it the hard workers or manual laborers who make it?  Or is it the people that promote themselves?  They called the 80s the "Me Generation", but this generation blows that away.

[tejaspear]

No kidding!  I anxiously await the pendulum swing back in the other direction! 

[solayads]

My own uncle, (brother of my N mother), became a psychologist. He went back and forth between being a Preacher, Psychologist and Psychiatric Patient

Whew......scary stuff, but not surprising when it comes to N's.  Their mindset is so self-centered that it creates a breeding ground for mental illness.

[tejaspear]

Heh. I call that side of my family "The Addams Family."