STILL showering w/ daughter!!!

[movinon]

Marta -   You ask a LOT of good questions.  He was married before and has even admitted to raping his ex too.  Unfortunately, she lives in another country (Yup, he got his friggin' green card w/ me).  He often said he ran over her and she wasn't as "strong" as me. His parents, who also live in another country are just as screwed up and I'm sure know nothing about the showering business or the "American" legal system.  They definately would not say anything against their boy.  I'm just a crazy American who's into all that "shrink stuff".

I think his enemies are my friends and family so I'm hopin their words will help sway things in my favor.

I think I have the emotional intimacy thing well under control. (yee-ha)

Mud - Where is OR?  I've been told to look her up before, but I don't know how to reach her.  Is OR short for something?  I am not organized, but I have a very good, healthy friend that is and I wiil call on her expertise.  I'm not seeing that he is a huge lier, but he is cocky beyond belief.  He has an heir of superiority about him that grates on people.  He is also socially "retarded"  a lot of times, but comes off as responsible.  Well, it's a toss-up actually.  He is either arrogant and pig-headed (like when he refused to give a cop his DL, trying to use the excuse he was from another country), or he is CCC - calm, cool & collected (calculating).  I can definately see where I can not let my emotions get the best of me here. My immediate challenge is to not get thrown by those small battles I may lose - thanks for that!

Not easy - I hear you and boy do I want to jump on this.  I'm just fearful that CPS may take my children away from ME for knowing and not doing something sooner.

Anon - I don't think my lawyer has done this.  Not sure why, but we will talk about it on Monday.

I'm ready for this fight guys!!

Okay, I have to be totally honest here - We have BOTH showered with her and I stopped a few months ago b/c I didn't want to be doing something  I wanted HIM to stop.  Another thing is that I am in a 12-step group that deals with sex and love addiction (the same one he is in).  I was unfaithful in my 1st marriage, but NEVER in this one.  He encouraged me to join after he started -said he thought I could benefit except that what I get is how to not get my worth from what men think of me or how much attention I get from them.  I also get to look at what it is in me that made me be unfaithful so I never have to go back there.  If any of you reading this post are not familiar with this and have questions, please ask.  I am being vulnerable here (which is not easy for me) and ask that you be honest but gentle.  I fear that he may try to use this against me. Another aspect of his addiction is he ofter used the internet and admitted to having "fantasies" about my oldest daughter when she hit puberty.  Needless to say my older daughter does not feel comfortable around him and does not feel comfortable having my other children around him. 

One more nail in his coffin - He is good friends with this couple and asked their daughter to go for a sleepover w/ our.  The woman (who I know socially and who is on the board of directors for child advocates), call and asked for a meeting w/ me.  SHe asked if I thought it was "safe" for her daughter to sleep over.  I think this is going to be HUGE in my case and he doesn't eve KNOW about it.

Movinon

[movinon]

Thanks bean

[Hopalong]

It wasn't good, boundary wise, for the two of you to shower with her, imho.
I can tell you own that, and that's a very good thing. If he brought it up you could ask your lawyer about saying, I was uncomfortable with it too and that's why I stopped.

However anyone views it, there's a HUGE difference showering with mom present, versus Dad alone.
And he is clearly a sexual deviant. I believe you will be able to prove that.
Your oldest daughter sounds like a significant asset in this case.

As to your 12 step group, can he use that? Isn't it anonymous?

Whatever he says, you are getting extremely savvy and responsible advice from everyone else here...take mine (about the system) as ignorant, but I'm rooting for you totally.

Keep posting...
Hopalong

[mudpuppy]

Hi movinon,

Sorry. OR's original name was 'only renting'. Her thread is on the first page now; "What would you think about this comment".

mud

[Hopalong]

Hey MovinOn,
When I look at what I posted earlier, I don't like it. Not a bit. (Who was that, my evil twin?)
It sounded really judgmental and who the heck needed ME to say it wasn't good to do that before with your D and exH... you already know that and you stepped up and owned it!

I admire you for admitting to something you feel uncomfortable about.

And I sincerely apologize for reacting like that. Truly. (Those evangelist genes, oy. They pop up.)

(I certainly don't like it when I trot out something I'm unhappy with myself about, and somebody goes, well you certainlly SHOULD disapprove of yourself!). Beleeeeeeeve you me, there are way-worse memories in my own closet I would never have the courage to post as you did. Including parenting mistakes. Big ones.

So I'd like to take it back, but since I did post it I'll leave it as an example of how NOT to be supportive.
And I hereby smack myself upside-a da head.

(Now I return to our regular program...SUPPORTING you in this important, very brave battle.)

Don't you let anybody discourage you, especially this twit with a backache!

Hopalong

[Portia]

Hi Movinon, I appreciate your honesty and frankness. It helps you and us, I think! I read about your shower stuff and this:

I'm just fearful that CPS may take my children away from ME for knowing and not doing something sooner.

I understand (or can try to ) your fear here. However: knowing and not acting is not the same as abusing. And you are fearful of him right, with darn good reason? So not acting could be out of fear for yourself and your kids?

Also, this point about your 6 yr old: she seems upset/disturbed/unhappy about her Dad showering with her. She's telling you this and that's a biggie - that she's saying it and not keeping it silent. I think it means she's really unhappy about it.

Question: did she ever say she was, or seemed unhappy, about anything that happened while you were with her? (That's a Q for you, not necessarily to answer here.)

Big difference there! What upsets her is what matters. Not your interpretation (or anyone else's really) of what happened. What she feels and thinks is what I'd be looking at if I was in CPS (which I'm not).

I hope that's how it works but I know systems aren't anywhere near perfect.

You're okay Movinon. You're a good mother imo.


Hopalong, you're okay too.
Say what you think and change your mind and change it again. Nothing is ever easy and nobody if perfect and heck, you said what I thought of at first. Then I wondered what the daughter herself thought of it. From the child's perspective is a good view to try. If that's possible. But it's not easy, there are lots of grey areas and the more information we get about anything, the better, probably.  But yeah, nothing wrong with what you said as far as I can see. Take it easy on yourself 

[Hopalong]

I love absolution.

Thanks P!
 

[movinon]

Hops - Thanks for what you said.  I must admit I was pretty depressed after writing what I wrote (or maybe it was reading so much on this board).  I felt so supported earlier then ...crickets.  I realize that to be a big girl, I will have to face up to some hard truths.  Thanks for being honest.

And what is IMO and IMHO?

Portia - I'm not sure what my daughter feels about all of this.  I'm not sure if she's reluctant to say b/c she knows I disapprove, or not.  She does not volunteer the info.  I have asked and that's where the reluctance comes in.  She's also reluctant to say too much of what they did.  No, I take that back.  She tells me that they went and had a play-date or went out to eat.

Hmmm

Man does my typing suck...I'll have to proofread more.

Movinon

[Hopalong]

I know you're a good mom too, Movinon. totally!
that was my projected guilt I was dumping.

Man, sometimes all this acting accountable is exhausting, ain't it.
But I have to tell you
ALL OF YOU
that I'm kind of shocked how much my awareness has grown since reading and writing here.

I really think this board is an absolutely amazing, amazing place.
I am learning SO much and have been helped SO much by the wise friends here.
It's like a constant daily support group you can check in with at any time, safe and heard.
It's like an accumulative community of friendship. In a profound way.

This truly is a remarkable phenomenon and I am phenomenally grateful.

It really amazes me. The very first time I ever participate in anything like this online, and it's pure gold.

Hopalong

[Marta]

Okay, I have to be totally honest here - We have BOTH showered with her and I stopped a few months ago b/c I didn't want to be doing something  I wanted HIM to stop. 

Movinon, mom showering alone with her daughter is another story. I know many cases like that. If you both showered together with her, then well, from the perspective of the court it might not look so great. Also, if he's European, then its another story too -- my swedish and finnish friends sleep naked, welcome their kids naked in the bed, and suana together, naked of course.

You don't become a sex and love addict just by having been unfaithful. It's a much deeper problem than that -- probably your husband is one and he simply made you think that you were on too.

In both these instances, showering with daughter and wearing the label of a sex addict, it appears to me that your husband waved his wand, created a world, and made you a part of it. You are, fortunately, breaking his spell and realizing that its his world, not yours, and pulling away from it. Of course both these points may get you into a bit of stickiness from legal perspective, but they are by no means make me think any less of you.

[Brigid]

Movinon,
I agree with the others, that what you shared with us does not make us think less of you or consider you out of line in your behavior.  I had an affair in my first marriage 30+ years ago, but never considered it in my 22 years of marriage to my second xh--he was the one to do that.  Making a mistake once can actually improve your chances of not repeating it. 

I agree that you showering with your daughter is no big deal.  I know that my daughter would not have been comfortable even showering with me naked at that age, much less her dad, but she has always been very modest and shy.  The fact that it is bothering your daughter is the key here and she must be willing to talk about that to the necessary authorities when the time comes.

IMHO (in my humble opinion), neither of these issues would be reason to take your daughter away from you.  Neither could be considered abusive to her, and that should be the litmus test.

Document, document, document--hire a private investigator if necessary--but get this man out of your daughter's life.  He is dangerous to both of you.

Hugs,

Brigid

[movinon]

Marta - Yes he is European.  It was a HUGE battle when we got together b/c he thought it was "rediculous" that I slept with clothes on.  As with all of the fights, I eventually gave in to try to get some peace.

In both these instances, showering with daughter and wearing the label of a sex addict, it appears to me that your husband waved his wand, created a world, and made you a part of it. You are, fortunately, breaking his spell and realizing that its his world, not yours, and pulling away from it.

Man, does this fit too!!  I was totally in his world - sort of like that show Runaway Bride - trying to figure out what type of eggs I liked.  We were so enmeshed.  I didn't know where he ended and I began.  All of my views (and moods) HAD to parrallel his - YUCK!!!

bean - Yes I told the wife's friend no.  Hopefully she will admit this in court (She IS HIS friend though).  BTW - I was at another friend's house last night and she said she didn't let HER daughter go either - said she didn't feel "right".  HMMMMMMM

To answer your question - I don't think he even THINKS about her psych. welfare.  And yes, my kids used to barge into my room ALL THE TIME, so I never knew (altough repeatedly tried to set boundaries about that)  I think the shower is a time AND how water thing...it's in the morning before school and she's a BIG dawdler.  My son had to get in afterwards as well (1 bathroom)

Which brings something up...I have one bathroom now and had 2 1/2 then.  Why do they not barge in now? another Hmmm...

Brigid - I cant WAIT to get this psycho out of her life.  I am feeling VERY excited about my meeting on Monday.  Very empowered I've heard so much about documenting and keeping ajournal and how much weight it holds in court.- thank you all sooooooo much!!!!

[brendaj]

I am new to this forum, but I would like to say a couple of things that I hope you will find helpful.
1) if your intuition tells you something is wrong it probably is.
2) be careful not to infuse the child with your feelings, it is probably hard enough to be caught in this and if the child is getting mulitple messages it may make her shut down and not feel anything.
3) have you ever thought about hidden cameras or recording devices to help you with your legal battle?

My prayers are with you. So sad
brendaj