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Victim Mentality?????

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Jacmac, as guest:
I have a question about the term I've been hearing tossed around "victim mentality" or "victim pathology".
I mean, it seems to me, someone who has been hurt and abused, used, devalued - however you want to term it, has the right to say, I have been treated unfairly.  Is it being suggested that the "victim" should not give a voice to her (his) pain, her anger, her feelings of violation?
The N that I was recently involved with used to constantly complain about what he termed as my desire to live in the past, and to be miserable all the time.  You see, his concept of the past was yesterday, and his idea of my being miserable was the fact that I did not conveniently forget how he had disrespected and devalued me only hours before, in order to have a good time (have sex, go out to dinner, enjoy a romantic evening, or laugh and joke around)in the present.
One of the books I've read dubbed this the "inability to say ouch".  It's like someone stabbing you in the chest repeatedly, and as you lay there, writhing in pain, your life blood seeping out on to the floor, having the nerve to say:
Don't you say a word about the pain or the blood - just understand that I am human and imperfect, that I have a disorder and I cannot help what I'm doing.
Isn't there a time and a place for everything?
We do not get stuck grieving and feeling sorry for our pain, for our loss, but aren't we entitled to feel the pain of being violated, to cry for ourselves?  
It seems as if in being asked to do this, the "victim" is being asked to shoulder a very important burden for the perpetrator:  His guilt, which he cannot own.
Perhaps I'm getting the wrong message when someone refers to the victim mentality.  If so, can anyone clarify?

phoenix:
bye

rosencrantz:
Hi Jacman - I think it is an issue of 'stages' and sometimes the words are difficult to come by in order to express this when you've arrived at the other side.

When you are in the middle of the trauma of coming to terms with BEING a victim, when you are just beginning to understand 'hey, this is wrong, YOU are DOING things to me that are not right and I am suffering as a result', then you need to KNOW THAT YOU ARE RIGHT so that you can find your way out of that place of desolation where you are being damaged.  You ARE right!!!!!

At this stage of growth and salvation, if you start to think that you ALSO have to take responsibilty for 'being a victim', then you are likely to ALSO say 'well, that must mean it's OK for the perpetrator to do these bad things to me'.  And that's not right at all.  That is NOT what the 'victim mentality' literature means at all.  

Ns do not gain a right to treat anyone as a victim or to excuse their behaviour for any reason whatsoever.

Much, much, much later, you will be able to look at 'the victim mentality' and see how you contributed to the situation (preferably before you get yourself right back into a similar relationship!!!) but FOR NOW you need to understand with your whole being that nobody has a right to treat you badly.  Do NOT try to work out how you are contributing to the current situation as you are likely to talk yourself out of the strength to stand up for yourself.    

Throw off the mantle of guilt it engenders, too.  :-)

Otherwise the Ns in your life will be rubbing their hands with glee as they dive straight back in.

Loved your post.  You see what the 'N' does very clearly.  I hope it helps if I restate your question clearly as a statement of fact : the 'victim' is NOT intended to take on the burden of guilt which the N cannot own.

Just be aware that the N will do everything in his or her power to place it on you but you will never be a victim if you can shrug it off.
R

jacmac, as guest:
I appreciate the candid responses.  They were very thought provoking and eloquently put.  Just to clarify, the post was not in reference to myself per se.  My major problem is the split from my head and my heart.  You see, intellectually, I "know" what is happening, I know what I have to do, I know it is wrong, I know how I am responsible.  However, in my heart, especially with someone who is able to push all my buttons, I lose my center, I no longer "know" anything -- I'm unsure.  I have confessed to my therapist many times that I think reading, studying, "knowing" is just an intellectual exercise which means nothing if you can't put what you've learned into practice.

That being said, my post was meant to provoke some thinking in the forum.  You see, I think some people, having come to the other side, having accepted that they have a right to be treated well, and having now endeavored to search out their part in the whole fiasco, forget how to be compassionate to someone else who has not reached that stage.

I remember having a conversation about this with someone else at another on-line support group forum.  She explained it this way.  She said, imagine a man who was attacked by a dog when he was younger.  He grows up with a great fear of dogs, becoming paralized in fear at their very presence, and although he is older, stronger, smarter, that fear has never been addressed.  She explained that now his fear response, although it worked well for him when he was younger, is totally inappropriate for the situations with which he is presented.  So she says as survivors we have to learn a new response, and that is what many members of support group forums are trying to point out when they are confronted with someone who is still dealing with issues of feeling like a victim.

My response was acknowledging that all that she said is true, and using her example, I walk into a room with a miniature french poodle.  A six foot tall, 250 pound man runs in fear and cowers in the corner, screaming at the top of his lungs.  Isn't more appropriate, and wouldn't it be more effective to calm him down, comfort him, perhaps show him by example that the dog is harmless, and there is really no danger, and then, when he is better able to  "hear" me, address how his response to the dog is inappropriate and could perhaps be coming from issues that he needs to deal with inside of himself?
 It just seems to me, IMO, addressing the "victim mentality" head on, without acknowledging the right for the underlying feelings to exist, and their validity undermines the role of a support group, at times seems hostile and unwelcoming, and may turn away the very people who need the support the most.  Sometimes I feel like the one who is admonishing the other to "look at yourself", "take responsibility", without first addressing the person's pain and suffering, is actually very uncomfortable with vulnerable feelings and emotions, and that is why they are unable to address them.
Just my thoughts.

Anonymous:
Hi Jacmac,

This is a very interesting topic and I have questions as well.  Or I guess I should say, I'm confused by the term "victim mentality".  When I read that term, I instantly thought of the N in my life who hangs on to her hardships like a badge because she can exploit them for sympathy, NS, etc from others.  She has big rewards for staying sick.  [Note: I am a compassionate person and would not wish these hardships on anyone.  There's a big difference helping someone who is trying to help themselves and someone who is invested in staying sick and draining people dry.]

It also absolves her from taking responsibility for herself and instead the world OWES her and should make it up to her for all the pain she suffered in the past (and I mean way past.)  So when I read "victim mentality" I also think of N posing as a victim.  She also acts like a little child who, when Mommy/authority figure isn't looking, hits her siblings.  Mommy will turn around when sibling is hitting back and guess who gets in trouble. Argh.

The inability to say "ouch".  Boy, that's me to a tee.  I have never, ever been able or allow to say, hey, that's not okay with me.  I don't like that. etc.  It's like heartburn, it just stays in my throat.

Also, jacmac, when you said you start to feel confused it reminded me of what I recently read in People of the Lie.  The first sign that you are in the presence of evil (Peck's word, not mine) is confusion.  

Well, this isn't really a helpful post.  Just wanted to respond with some miscellaneous thoughts.  Thanks.  S.

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