Author Topic: Feminism  (Read 2067 times)

penelope

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Feminism
« on: July 26, 2006, 12:02:10 AM »
What the heck, I'll start a new thread on the topic.

I've never actually called myself a feminist before, but after working since college in a male-dominated field, I realized one day that I just am.  This is not a label I wear proudly, but I secretly do think like a feminist.  Maybe one day I'm shout it out, but for now, it was just good to proclaim it today, even if jacmac thinks I'm being rude.  Too bad, I'm not about making jacmac happy by my behaviors.

I also believe in many other rights of women around the world.  And I am Definitely Pro-Choice.  It's my body, not some yahoo's in Washington.  No question about that.  I'd feel the same way if they wanted to do away with Men having vasectomies as I do about birth control and abortion.

It is for this small little reason I've resisted joining the Catholics, I think.  But I want to do that too.  One day..

There are just my beliefs.  I can't change them, they're just me.  And I'm proclaiming them because I can.  And it sure does feel great to do so!


pb
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 12:05:09 AM by penelope »

Healing&Hopeful

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2006, 06:52:16 AM »
Hiya Penelope

Good for you…. It can feel good to state what you think, state what your beliefs are.  Though your last paragraph surprised me… “They are just my beliefs.  I can’t change them, they’re just me”.

As long as you are happy with your beliefs then yes, why should you want to change them?  But can’t change them?  Sorry, I’m probably just being picky.

I think the word feminist is different today.  I still get the same images when I hear the word, the women burning their bras, hating men, become lesbions, however does that really make you a feminist?  Or is it that we would like to see equality for all, regardless or age, gender, race or religion?  That’s what I would like to see…. In my ideal world.

I do believe in God (I’m Church of England), however I don’t have a really strong faith (by this I mean I don’t go to church every Sunday, that kind of thing), but part of my belief in God, is part of who I am, part of my growing up.  My H is Catholic and his parents are devout Catholics and pioneers.  One of his older sisters was pregnant young and out of wedlock 20 years ago… Instead of her parents being there, supporting her, she was sent away to have her baby because of their religious beliefs. 

I believe that religion is a guide, that God is a guide but we all personally interpret this differently.  While myself or my H don’t agree with everything the Catholic religion preaches (I’m thinking about the contraception debate here), it doesn’t mean to say that he’s not a Catholic, it’s part of who he is.  And whenever I go to church, there is one part I always love… when you turn and shake hands with the people around you saying “Peace be with you”.  I find this part very calming and reassuring.

I am also pro-choice… not in thinking that it’s my body, I’m not sure how I would react if I were pregnant, however in teens or early twenties, without the financial or emotional support, it would have been incredibly difficult for me to go ahead, but more than that, what effect would this have had on a baby.  I couldn’t have given a child what it needs, and it’s for that reason that I would have probably gone ahead.  One of my close friends went ahead with an abortion when she was in her mid twenties, and because I was there with her, it is not an easy decision to make and the impact it has on your life is immense.  But I’m going to sound hypocritical because on the other hand in my heart I don’t really agree with IVF…. And I’m aware IVF is something I could never go through, however I am still pleased for the success of the families who have been through IVF.

But the thing is I am happy with my beliefs…. I do think they assist me through life and on the whole I am happy with the person I am today but if someone else has a different set of beliefs, that is ok too.  I do think it’s something personal and each to their own.

Peace be with you all

H&H xx
« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 08:02:19 AM by Healing&Hopeful »
Here's a little hug for u
To make you smilie while ur feeling blue
To make u happy if you're sad
To let u know, life ain't so bad
Now I've given a hug to u
Somehow, I feel better too!
Hugs r better when u share
So pass one on & show u care

Certain Hope

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2006, 01:01:00 PM »
Hi Pb,

  I agree with H&H that it's wonderful and healthy and an altogether liberating experience for you to be able to state your thoughts and beliefs. I also agree with her that beliefs can be changed, and should be changed, when they no longer contribute to wholeness of being and peace & joy of spirit.

   When I think of a feminist, I envision a stereotype similar to what H&H describes. Maybe that's wrong of me, but it's what I see in my mind's eye. Should I say, "I can't help" viewing feminists that way?  I don't think I should, because that would be putting individuals in a box based on a definition that maybe doesn't even apply to everyone who claims feminism as a cherished cause. Maybe it's just another label that's outgrown its usefulness. Kinda like "Christian", which to me has expanded so far beyond the manner in which it was first used, it's become virtually meaningless. The disciples of Jesus were first called Christians in Antioch (Acts 11:26). I mention this because I find it interesting that they were named this by those who did not share their faith (courtesy of Wikipedia).  My thought is... if somebody who doesn't believe in your particular world view is the same one who names (labels) you, then maybe that label (word) automatically carries negative connotations (in some folks' minds) from that point on. I dunno.

   By the way, I checked plain old Websters online and found this definition for feminism:

   Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
        The movement organized around this belief.


Well, by that definition, then I am indeed pro-feminism. Definitions and cultural beliefs attached to ideologies sure do confuse things when new societal trends become attached to what was originally such a simple concept. Blah, blah, blah ....  :wink:

Anyhow, when you stated on the other thread that the only mother/wife/sister/etc somebody would want is a woman who's a feminist, I thought, hmm... I guess then I am chopped liver?  I am mostly teasing, Pb. Truly, I am glad that you are feeling free to express yourself by sharing your personal beliefs and I don't think any less of anyone who does so, whether I agree with them or not. I also don't think that peoples' beliefs are written in stone, or that they necessarily have to subscribe to all parts of a particular belief system (as someone might have described it) in order to claim aspects of that belief for their own. Seems to me that within any belief system, there is a continuum of believers, from the most conservative to the ultra radical... so many different views often, that the original concept can get lost.

Mostly right now, I'm glad you're here and very glad you're feeling great about expressing yourself!

Hugs.

Hope

portia guest

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2006, 02:39:18 PM »
Hiya pb

alighted on your thread coz the title looked promising

What’s being a feminist mean to you? I think it means different things to different people. I remember my bf when I was 17….so this would be 1979…telling me he’d been to an anti-sexism meeting and was rejected from it, because he was male..haha! The meeting was for women only. :?

I’m cautious of saying I’m any sort of ‘ist’ because of the way other people interpret it. I think I might be a ‘humanist’ but I’m not sure I know enough about humanism to say for definite. I also worry about labels. If others want to label themselves, fine, but not to label me. I even wonder about ‘female’. I have good spatial and logical abilities and can do things with angles and numbers that define me as having some ‘male’ brain traits. Am I only female, so simply defined by my genitalia? 

Does Jac think you’re being rude, have I missed something? Probably.

Am I pro-choice…I don’t know. I’m pro listening to all voices in any debate. I’m pro everyone being as informed as they can be and making any decision based on the information at the time. This changes, as we get more information. I find it difficult to listen to anyone with a fixed, unmoving view, one which seems to me to be rejecting of new information. I find extremes and extremists worrying. There’s a bit of me that’s extreme too: I guess I’m bigoted about bigots, which is indefensible. I try not to be. I try to live and let live but when someone wants me to live the way they want me to live – some perverse off-shoots of Islam for instance – and they will use force or abuse of some sort to coerce me; well, no.

Why do you want to join things? (Be a feminist, join the Catholic religion.) I’ve thought about adding my voice and money to various causes – Amnesty International for one – but when it comes to signing up, I won’t do it. I don’t like ‘causes’ as such. And invariably I’ve found that on closer inspection, the organisation in question does some things that I don’t agree with. Maybe it’s about trust? I don’t trust any group to represent me. I vote in political elections because I think not to would be counter-productive.

Sorry I’m rambling.

If feminism is as CH’s Webster definition – simple equality – then I’m a feminist and so is my partner, who’s male. So why call it feminism… how about simple equality, of all humans? (To be honest, I get more wound up about abuse of kids than i do about equality. Kids' lack of human rights, that kind of thing.)  Good thinking topic, I like it, thanks.

penelope

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2006, 04:05:50 PM »
H&H:
Quote
when you turn and shake hands with the people around you saying “Peace be with you”.  I find this part very calming and reassuring

me too  :)

Cheers everybody.  I don't have time to respond, but I thought I'd peek in at lunch and this is an interesting discussion.  We can keep it going if ya like. 

Doesn't have to stay restricted to feminism, I like some of the other points that were brought up about being "defined" if one joins a group as well.

(and Hope, you are so far from chopped liver!  You are more like salmon pate, come on, you know that :P)

Certain Hope

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2006, 04:13:37 PM »
lol    :D

(((((Pb))))))

Hope

Hopalong

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2006, 09:14:59 PM »
I haven't burned a bra in decades.

To me the "ism" or word doesn't matter, but attitudes and assumptions that restrict, limit and condescend to either gender do.

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

penelope

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2006, 09:29:01 PM »
hear ye hear ye hops.  I agree.

I'm just thankful that each day I go into work I can find a lot more supportive folk than not.  I know it's not like that all over.

I did something kinda funny one day.  The top dog at our place is a chemical engineer (obviously he's a manager now - amongst scientists/engineers we say he sold out).  Anyway, some people do aspire to move up through the ranks into mangagement and beyond (CEO?).  When he got promoted into this position recently, I forwarded the email congratulating and announcing this to my boss and all it said was: " I didn't know Such-and-Such was a Chemical Engineer? :)"

The thing is, at my last review, he had the balls to say to me (which pissed me off at the time, yes it did):  "you know, you're going to really be limited where you can go in this company, based on your degree... (Chemical Engineering)."

That is what I call a move to make a feminist's blood boil.  But typically, people I work with are very PC.  There are no groups of men huddled around coffee coolers talking smack about women (and if there were, they'd be marched down to HR, pronto) - the meetings are typically 50:50 (women run them too, yes - they make just as good leaders as men).  We have lots of women in high level positions where I work.  I know it's changed though, in only the last 10 - 20 years.  I think the world is changing and it's for the better.  Just my 2 cents.  But then I also know places where women's rights are not upheld to such a high regard..or blacks, or gays, or other minorities. It's sad.  I could never work there.  Maybe you have to work in a big company that's likely been sued a few times, to get the ultra PCness.  There was a guy at our place who had a sex change a few years back.. apparently he told management before it happened and they brought Every employee into a meeting (they had to have a few meetings) to say: there will be no jokes about this.  If it gets back to HR that there was a joke told, someone will be fired.  It's against the law...

Personally, I like it better.  I'm uncomfortable with hate of any form.

pb

Certain Hope

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2006, 09:38:49 PM »
Pb... a side note here...

 Re: this ~   There was a guy at our place who had a sex change a few years back.. apparently he told management before it happened and they brought Every employee into a meeting (they had to have a few meetings) to say: there will be no jokes about this.  If it gets back to HR that there was a joke told, someone will be fired.  It's against the law...

I wish our public schools had this sort of policy against bullying of any sort for any reason. Absolute no tolerance. Encourage kids to speak up about bullying and the offender gets immediate consequences (suspension?)

Hope

Hopalong

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2006, 09:57:42 PM »
Quote
I think the world is changing and it's for the better.  Just my 2 cents.  But then I also know places where women's rights are not upheld to such a high regard..or blacks, or gays, or other minorities. It's sad.
Quote

warning, my post here veers off into a graphic tangent about child abuse, please don't read if you'll be kinder to yourself not to...thanks, Hops (And I will remove it pronto if anyone asks me to.)

Yes, yes. The Western world, anyway. And there are so many places of prejudice and sexism still here.

I despair over the treatment of women in other places. Try not to despair, but I do feel connected at a heart-level. So many things happen to helpless boys, too...like the child soldiers in Africa, or any abused boy anywhere. Especially those with no fathers. My heart breaks for them.

PLEASE DON'T READ ON IF YOU ARE SENSITIVE TO HORROR ABOUT CHILDREN--STOP HERE).

When people are considering the general exploitation and suppression of women and girls though, it seems endless.  For me, the worst thing (though I know there are worse, because depravity can go lower):
I had an "adopted" child from the Sudan for a long time. I wrote her and her family, she sent me little drawings. They sent me her picture every year. Before the program was driven out of the area by war, they sent me her 11-year-old photo. From age 10 to 11, ALL the childhood had drained out of her face. I had an intuition, called the program and asked, and they were truthful: yes, they practice female genital mutilation in her village right at that age. Older women, well indoctrinated, hold down the child, and one of them slices off her labia and clitoris--usually with something like the edge of a can lid. No anesthesia. Their wounds are disabling and lifelong.

I saw a photograph of this (it was being done in the middle east somewhere) in National Geographic once. The child was screaming in pain, reaching out to the photographer. I have never before and never since seen such an expression on the face of a child.

(So little Dakota Fanning is doing a brutal child-abuse scene to entertain the Western world. It's all of a piece.) I cannot imagine the trauma. I have heard some people dismissively compare it to circumcision, when the equivalent would be amputation of the penis.

Sorry for the great darkness, but this is why I do not quibble over labels like feminist (to me, it assumes a love for all of humanity of any sexual identity, gender, age, race...it covers it all, for me). If it's a convenient shorthand for passionate about the liberation of women and it helps anyone understand or think about anything, I'll wear it. All words are approximations anyway.

I don't argue about "isms" much. Except fundamentalism of any stripe...and then there's no argument, nobody's listening. And that would include radical anythings...women who hate and belittle men are stuck.

As are men who dominate women or have generalized hostility for them.

I'm so grateful for the wonderful women and men in my life. (Here too!)

Hops


« Last Edit: July 26, 2006, 10:33:08 PM by Hopalong »
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

penelope

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2006, 11:00:56 PM »
me too hops, and I agree with ya totally.  The brutality has got to stop in the world.  There is a better way...I deeply believe it.  Did somebody mention the Alliance for New Humanity?  I think maybe it was Portia.  I hope they can make some small difference, I do have hope.

Speaking of, I hesitate to join groups too Portia, for much of the same reasons you mentioned (maybe this is a trait of our N upbringing?).  However, there are some causes that I feel so strongly about, I do support and "join" those when I'm able or in the ways I'm able.

hugs to all,
pb

Hopalong

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2006, 06:56:47 AM »
Thanks for mentioning the Alliance, PB...I hadn't seen that, or this:
http://www.positivenews.org.uk/cgi-bin/Positive_News/welcome.cgi?page=Advertising.htm

 :)

Hops
"That'll do, pig, that'll do."

penelope

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Re: Feminism
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2006, 11:03:32 AM »
Thank you hops.

Alliance for the New Humanity
http://www.anhglobal.org/

I've heard some of it's members speak on NPR in the past couple of years.  The group was founded by many of the world's religious and spiritual leaders who would like to make a change..somehow.  They're still getting off their feet, but it's an interesting concept.