Our daughter---VERY long, sorry

[penelope]

probably chose my words wrong sugarre, sorry.  I apologize, I meant to help but sometimes I'm not the best at communicating. 

I've noticed in the course of my own therapy that everything focuses on my relationship with my parents, that's all.  They play a huge part in who I am, why I am, I believe.  That's my bias. 

Even if your child did turn out diffucult and it was your fault (which I don't think it could be 100%, but yeah I think the parents have an influence), would that be so horrible?  How can anyone fix a problem they're not even willing to admit?  I sensed adrift wanted to "fix" something, so I offered what I know.  Sorry if it came across mean.  not my intent. 

I don't know how Therapist's do it, really.  They have a way of making you see hard things like this, without making people defensive.  Else, why would anyone go back?

pb

[penelope]

Sugarre,
I don't think I said it was all the parent's fault, if so that's not what I meant.  I was preparing (trying to anyway) adrift for the mental health profession, which does believe I think that parents have a lot to do with their child's behavior.  They are the biggest influence in a child's life So if she's planning on going to family counseling, she could be prepared for that by possibly reading a few books.  And I suggested one - but based on her words (and I'm getting a sense from reading yours too) I suspected she might not process it well.  It's hard stuff to hear. 

Counseling is a gift you give yourself.  To break free from a dysfunctional past.  It's not a punishment.  If you're thinking of sending your child or family to counseling in order to get them to shape up, maybe you've been watching too many old timey movies (sounds very Pavlov, behaviorist).    Therapy is about forming a loving relationship with yourself.  If you do that, you'll be amazed about what you'll discover about others.

OK, now I'm really exiting.  But I am curious how one stops the cycle of violence by sending one's children to counseling.  I see these poor kids in my T's office all the time.  The parents drop them off for their "fix."  I look at these kids and think - they look real sweet and healthy to me.  Maybe they need more attention.  I wonder how I'd be as a parent, that's for sure.  But no, I don't have kids or plan to.  take care



Here's a pretty good description of abuse as it describes some of the more subtle forms. 


http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/verbal_emotional_abuse/110026

Abusers exploit, lie, insult, demean, ignore (the "silent treatment"), manipulate, and control.
 

There are many ways to abuse. To love too much is to abuse. It is tantamount to treating someone as an extension, an object, or an instrument of gratification. To be over-protective, not to respect privacy, to be brutally honest, with a sadistic sense of humour, or consistently tactless – is to abuse.

To expect too much, to denigrate, to ignore – are all modes of abuse. There is physical abuse, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse. The list is long. Most abusers abuse surreptitiously. They are "stealth abusers". You have to actually live with one in order to witness the abuse.

There are three important categories of abuse:

Overt Abuse

The open and explicit abuse of another person. Threatening, coercing, beating, lying, berating, demeaning, chastising, insulting, humiliating, exploiting, ignoring ("silent treatment"), devaluing, unceremoniously discarding, verbal abuse, physical abuse and sexual abuse are all forms of overt abuse.

Covert or Controlling Abuse

Abuse is almost entirely about control. It is often a primitive and immature reaction to life circumstances in which the abuser (usually in his childhood) was rendered helpless. It is about re-exerting one's identity, re-establishing predictability, mastering the environment – human and physical.

The bulk of abusive behaviours can be traced to this panicky reaction to the remote potential for loss of control. Many abusers are hypochondriacs (and difficult patients) because they are afraid to lose control over their body, its looks and its proper functioning. They are obsessive-compulsive in an effort to subdue their physical habitat and render it foreseeable. They stalk people and harass them as a means of "being in touch" – another form of control.

To the abuser, nothing exists outside himself. Meaningful others are extensions, internal, assimilated, objects – not external ones. Thus, losing control over a significant other – is equivalent to losing control of a limb, or of one's brain. It is terrifying.

Independent or disobedient people evoke in the abuser the realization that something is wrong with his worldview, that he is not the centre of the world or its cause and that he cannot control what, to him, are internal representations.

To the abuser, losing control means going insane. Because other people are mere elements in the abuser's mind – being unable to manipulate them literally means losing it (his mind). Imagine, if you suddenly were to find out that you cannot manipulate your memories or control your thoughts... Nightmarish!

[WRITE]

I was neglected and abused as a child, like many people here, and it lead me into an abusive and difficult marriage and other relationship corners. But also into a creative place and I have had a very happy life in other ways.

I don't blame my parents, they were a product of their own stulted environment and upbringing, what I did resent was that I needed something else for myself and they couldn't accept it. And my mother was always up in the moral high ground, which as the years passed became pure hypocrisy; she saw herself completely differently than everyone else did, and my father was very weak and just accepted her dictating. They were both very unsupportive of my sensitivities and bipolar illness, though I can remember clearly starting to present with that around age 7 or 8.

But they didn't 'believe' in mental illness or psychology so they blanked it. My mother was quite mentally ill herself by the time I was a teenager, but she never sought help and became a spiritualist, an alcoholic and very heavy smoker. She 'ran away' when I was 16 and made a new life, I rarely saw her after that and she died when she was 50.

I was rarely hit- I threw the hugest tantrums for hours on the times that I was; maybe that's why I understand my son's tantrums more now, I don't know. I have of course slapped him sometimes, as most parents do, but he responded exactly as I did, with extreme rage and I stopped.

Once I saw a series of letters to the BBC about drug addicted teens, one stood out, it was from a man who said 'if your kids have problems it's time for you to take a long hard look in the mirror'.

I think since I did therapy and learned to manage my own life and illness it has taken a shadow off my whole family, it does have a knock-on effect with everyone around you.

This summer has been really good progress with my son, I cancelled activities and trips pretty much and we've been hanging out and working through a lot of the issues that give him problems, his demanding behaviour with us and with other children, and his distorted thinking and negativity. He seems loads happier than a few months ago.

I did wonder if he had bipolar, but even with me I have found that the medical model only helps so much, controlling the worst symptoms, and I've had to completely rework my life to accomodate myself and live healthier.

Two weeks ago I asked him if he could change things and I didn't have bipolar, would he. He was able to think about it very clearly, and said he thinks he wouldn't be a good singer because we have always shared all this music which comes from my illness! He's only 10 but I think he's already developing some good strategies for a happy life, and I worry less now if he does have bipolar and concentrate on setting an example of how to live well- with or without it.

I had a very good psychologist for therapy. But the doctors I have been involved with weren't very helpful so far.

[penelope]

hi write,

thank you for sharing that, I love to listen to your stories about you and your son.  They truly insire me.

pb

[Hopalong]

I think you're doing a brilliant job with your boy, Write.
Your intuition and memory of what it was like for you,
AND your restraint...and you are having the kind of talks
that keep people close.

Sing on! I love the notion of you two singing together, that's wonderful.

Hops

[adrift]

Write,  I'm so glad for you that you and your son are working on this together and that progress is being made.  I have no doubt that some of DD1's problems are my fault, but she exhibited rage behaviour beginning around 6 months old and I swear I was actually at a very stable part of my life then.   She was so doted on by both sets of grandparents and by us, but yet the instant she didn't get her way she would rage.....like I said about the crib story. 

Well, anyway............ seems I've actually discovered a pattern through some of my writing on here about this and that is, that she needs her space and I've pushed myself on to her too much.  I can understand about needing space, so this shouldn't be a hard thing for me to work on being better at. But also, it seems to me, that while she needs her space, she's feeling somewhat  insecure when she has that space.  It's kind of a yo-yo pattern. So I think I'll work on being happy for her that she has her space but yet letting her know that we're here for her. 

Adrift

[reallyME]

Oh boy could I comment on some of this!

Ummmm, Penelope, I do not agree with you that this DD1 was behaving as a normal teen up until age 18, and I would like to also know if you have any children.  If you do not, that will explain why you said that.  People tried to tell me that my daughter, Anna was "normal" too, as a child, as a teen, etc, but let me just say this.

DD1 was ME TO A TEE as a child.  I will NOT blame my mother for this.  I was born like I was...angry, rebellious, nasty, mouthy, determined and persistent.  As you can see, even now, I am not one who backs down real easily, even if people smear me or lash at me.  I don't really give a rip most of the time, because I never really have.  This is also why "control freaks" of the world, cannot get to me for any length of time.  My mother, herself, would tell you that I have always been an overcomer.  I've gone through things in my life, that would have put "runners" "hiders" into a mental institution, yet I just got back up and headed on with life.  I largely attribute it to my relationship with God that I had since I was 3, when I would sit in my closet, talking to and listening to Him.

Now, again, with my daughter, Anna...she was BORN TO BE WILD, as the song goes.  Every half year of Anna's life, she would go BALLISTIC!  Probably up until she was an adolescent, days with Anna were filled with screaming matches, her throwing things at me, at her sister, etc.  Even while Anna was a baby, at first we found it funny, that when I told her NO, she would turn and SMACK her sister.  Now, I realize that was the beginning of PROJECTION.  One time, Anna got angry at her sister and took a huge set of many keys on a keyring, and raked open her sister's back with them...it was bloody and gory and it didn't even PHASE Anna.  It was the sort of scene that you'd see in horror movies!!!

Now, did people suggest that I spank her more?  YES.  Did I try that? YEP.  Did it work?  Not on your life!!!  Anna was the kid who grabbed the paddle and begin hitting ME with it!!!  I don't know if you all realize, but these children who have such issues early on, have UNBELIEVABLE PHYSICAL STRENGTH to reallyl HURT YOU!  A lot of times I tried time-out with Anna.  She would try and break the door down!  I had to stand and hold the door closed, until her temper calmed down, or else she'd run out the door, maybe hurt me in some way, physically, etc.

I took Anna to counseling several times.  It DID help her deal with her anger, thank GOD!  To this day, she talks about that counseling experience to me and how much it helped her to learn to toss the basket ball, instead of lashing out, etc.

But, Anna at age 17, is very "stuck up" in some ways.  I once said to her, kind of jokingly, "You really think you are all that, don't you?"  She said "Pshhhht, THINK?  I KNOW I am, what are YOU talkin bout?"  She sort of has a ghetto attitude, like everyone else doesn't matter; only HER.  She dresses in skin-tight clothes, with big earrings and lots of makeup.  She flirts with guys and does all she can to "look good" in public...it is very MUCH an image thing with her, and she was JODI'S favorite child of mine, for OBVIOUS reasons!!!  Anna, however, does not like other N's.  When N Jodi sent her a swim suit, Anna wore it but refused to THANK Jodi for sending it.  Jodi, of course, said "after all I've DONE for that kid!  Well, SEE IF SHE GETS ANYTHING ELSE FROM ME!"  It was interesting watching the sparks between the two N's goin on!  See, I'm not an N, so I can see the signs of one.  I'm not perfect either, but I am rather wise about things.

I said all that to say again, that I disagree with ya, Penelope.  Children who say things like DD1 said to her mother, children who lash out at siblings when they are scolded...NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR FOR CHLDREN OR TEENS!  Not at all.  These are problem children who possibly show signs of Nism or BPD.  period.  They usually grow up to be the N's we 've all experienced, too.  Sometimes the parents are to blame...sometimes, it is in the child's physical make up from the start and NOBODY is to blame.  IS there a way to help these children?  I would have liked to try meds back then, but hubby wouldn't hear of it.  I believe only GOD can help some children/people, to be honest with you.

Penelope, please know that, although I disagree with your view, I still like YOU as a person.

~Laura

[Plucky]

Hi Adrift,
This sounds like a very difficult situation.  I don't have any specific advice, only this.  If you think it is a problem, then it is a problem. If it seems to be causing problems within your family, then it is a problem. 

Also, you in your family are all so close to the situation, that I think you really need an outsider to assess what is going on.  We on the board cannot do a good job of that because it is too hard to convey a 19 year history involving 5 or more people.   For this reason, therapy or counseling is a good idea.  If you cannot get your D to go, you can go without her.  Even if a person is absent, the relationship with them continues on in your mind. So even out of the house, she is still impacting your lives.

Good luck and hang in there.  I don't think that feeling guilty is going to accomplish anything.  Just keep at trying to sort the thing out.

Plucky

[DreamSinger]

Hi Adrift. I read your post last night and wanted to sit with it a while before responding.

First, I want to thank you for taking the time to share so much of yourself and your personal experience in your family.

I just wanted to say that when I awoke this morning and thought about your situation, it occurred to me that the issue with your daughter might not be so much her anger, but her sense of entitlement. Anyone can be angry. The question is, what do you do with it?

It's true parents have a tremendous impact on the lives of their children, and it's also true, that mothers have always gotten the major blame for anything that goes wrong with a child, but you know, what I have come to realize is that nothing is a given, and if nothing is a given, then the person who is making a choice has got to take some responsibility for it.

For instance, children get abused every day. This increases their chances of becoming abusers, however, it is not a given that they will automatically become one. Some children do grow up to abuse  others in the way they were. Some do not. What makes the difference? Is it genetic disposition? Is it personal will?  Is it grace? I certainly don't know. Perhaps it's a little of everything, plus a synergy of variables that we are just not aware of.

The bottom line for you though, is regardless of why things unfolded as they did, you are faced with making a decision as to how things will be now. I think getting a trained outside perspective might be a good idea, with or without DD1 and in my opinion, the focus should be not be on how to help her deal with her anger or what to do with her anger, but how to redefine the parameters of appropriate behavior within your family and how to reinforce it. Perhaps, creating a list of what you want your family to look like, to engage your children, starting with the ones who are living with you and your husband, what family means to them, what they would like to see in their home in an ideal situation, what is of value to them....and saying DD1 doesn't come by anymore isn't enough.

What qualiities of DD1 not coming by anymore do you desire, what does it look like, feel like? Then how can you recreate those qualities in your household for everyone? How you can protect your space, your peace of mind and heart?

Make a commitment that this is what you want to create for each other, and then stand by it. Everyone, including guests, including DD1 will respect the values you set as a household in your home and in interaction with you as a person. DD1 is welcome to come by, she is your daughter and you love her dearly. Her humanness and all her emotions have value and can be acknowledged, just like everyone else's.

She may or may not have good reason to be angry, but she is not entitled to punish you with it.
She may or may not have good reason to be jealous of DD2, but she is not entitled to punish her with it.
She may or may not have good reason for any number of negative emotions she may feel, but she is not entitled to create more misery and grief for others with them.

What she can do is communicate these feelings in appropriate ways and she is certainly entitled to get help, when she is ready and willing, to learn how to do this. You cannot make her do this, but you can make sure that you no longer acquiesce to her sense of entitlement to disrupt your home.

You can ask her to leave, tell her to leave. You can let her know you love her, are there for her and will be more than willing to work with her in whatever way is necessary, in a mutually respectful way and in a safe environment, but you will no longer tolerate tantrums or emotional violence. You need to hold every action up to the standard of respect, and it must flow both ways. You can have expectations of appropriate behavior that you hold for all your family and guest, and if she cannot abide by them, then she can't stay.

Why are you the one to leave, when she throws a fit? She is the one who should be shown the door, which will always remain open when she is ready interact with you in a respectful way. This doesn't mean there's no anger or there won't be any conflict. It just means they will be expressed and dealt with in nonabusive ways.

And you have to stop paying for a crime you might feel deep down inside you committed a long time ago...even if you did. This does not help her now, and it does not help you. Someone once told me, "You can't fix the past", although I know I have found myself trying to do that over and over again. What you can do though is offer healing in the present, and to address the issues at hand with the knowledge, wisdom and the wholeness you have accrued and grew into over the years, even if the cost for what you learned is high...especially if the cost is high. All the more reason to use what you've learned now. 


Demian

[adrift]

Wow Demian,  very interesting!   It's funny that you used the word entitlement.  I'm old friends with my hairdresser (well, we aren't THAT old!) and through the years I've shared a little of what goes on with my DD1 with her, but not to the extent I shared on here.  Anyway, my friend is very wise and she said to me not long ago that my DD1 sounds like she did when she was a teen.  I knew this person when she was a teen and I thought she was totally mistaken, but then she started telling me things about her home and how she behaved (I know her entire family fairly well) and the saying "you never know what goes on behind closed doors" is so true.  My friend/hairdresser told me how she had acted at home and she looked dead at me and said, "I thought I was entitled.  No matter what my parents did for me, it was never enough.  And I was so jealous of my sister and that made me feel even more entitled----then I fell flat on my butt and I grew up"  What happened what that she got pregnant her senior year of high school, got into a big fuss with her parents and told them she didn't want their help, she and the guy got married (luckily for her he's a great guy) and then and only then, did she realize just how much her parents had done for her and how immature and unappreciative she had been.  Now she has a great relationship with her parents and has two more kids and a wonderful marriage,,,,,,but she said to me that if she hadn't gone through those hard years of being a financially broke young family, she wouldn't have grown up and gotten over her sense of entitlement.

Course I'm REALLY hoping my DD1 doesn't get pregnant or married any time soon, but I do hope she is getting over her "entitlement" thing.  I really like the part Demian when you wrote

She may or may not have good reason to be angry, but she is not entitled to punish you with it.
She may or may not have good reason to be jealous of DD2, but she is not entitled to punish her with it.
She may or may not have good reason for any number of negative emotions she may feel, but she is not entitled to create more misery and grief for others with them.

DD1 did bring up her depression again yesterday.  I've known she was/is depressed for years and I've had on her various medication (I already covered this part, right?) however she's always pretty much tried to outrun her depression---you know how it goes; partying, hanging with friends ALL the time, drinking, sleeping---anything to try to outrun that depression.  I told her years ago that that was what I felt like she was doing and it seemed to register with her for a little while but then she said that no, I was wrong.  She said her depression/anger/unhappiness was caused by her crappy life and that if she could get her life better (be away from us, have FUN, do her own thing, live her life) then all would be peachy.  I tried to explain to her that staying busy and having "fun" doesn't fix anything and that often depression is a chemical imbalance and that if she would take meds to fix the imbalance then her life wouldn't seem so bad. And I've told her many times that true happiness comes from the inside and from learning to love ourselves and to love others and by setting goals and making progress towards those goals.  She didn't want to hear any of that in the past.  Anyway, yesterday she actually asked to go get some new meds from our family dr. to help with depression!!!!!!  If only she will accept that depression runs in our family, that she isn't "crazy" for feeling depressed and that it's o.k. to take meds to help with depression---if she'll do that and stick with a regimen I do believe she'll make some progress with many of her issues. 

THanks again everyone for your words, encouragement and ideas!! Y'all are great!

Adrift

[gratitude28]

Hi adrift,
Your long post was well worth the read. I always wonder what parts of a child are innate and what we add to them. Honestly, I know a large part of my daughter's personality was part of her before she turned a year old. We do, of course, have a huge impact on most of our children, but are there some children we can't influence? I don't have an answer, and no one does. We all do and did what we hoped was best.
As for now, if you can bear it, I would limit contact with her if possible. I can't see any reason to continue with her right now (or possibly ever...). You have no need to be punished by her.
I wish you love and peace. Please tell us how it is going.
Love, Beth

[Certain Hope]

Dear Adrift,

I've been following this thread about your daughter from the very beginning, but never knew what to say or add that might be of any practical help. My two older daughters are polar opposites in personality, yet each has her own set of issues and none of those issues have missed their mark in stabbing me in the heart, so I tend to go tone deaf when it comes to discussing this stuff. I've always wanted to tell you not to blame yourself, but I couldn't ... because I do.  At least I did. But now, having read Demian's reply to you here, I have to say that my spirit just registers her words as the truth and I believe:    you have to stop paying for a crime you might feel deep down inside you committed a long time ago...even if you did. This does not help her now, and it does not help you.
  Thank you, Demian.

And thank you, Adrift, for making it possible for someone like me, who hasn't even been able to touch upon the subject, to hear the needed answers. I hope you will come to a place of peace and resolution with your daughter soon... even if that place is only within yourself.

With love,
Hope

[Certain Hope]

((((((((Jac)))))))) thank you.

For a very long time I could barely think about my oldest daughter, especially. I mean literally, it was as though I had firmly placed a mental and emotional block around her and would not even allow the remotest thought or feeling to invade my bubble of denial. I actually saw this as a better alternative to despising her. What changed was realizing that it was myself I despised. I wasn't ashamed of her, I was ashamed of myself because I saw her as a part of me. She's a mess, still. But you know, I can think of her now and speak to her and tell her that I love her and mean it. I can say with all of my heart, she's a mess, but she's not MY mess, she's my daughter.  My prayer is that all of this shadow-exposing will bring me to the place where she'll see herself in me and not wince, just as I can now see myself in her and not turn and run. I haven't posted much about my kids because it's always seemed too close to home for me. If I couldn't objectify a subject, it was off limits. That's changing, too, so ... I expect alot more will come out in time.

Jac, I want you to know that you have contributed alot to my strength, just in this short time I've been here. I think we've done the shadow dance and it has been more good than bad    I love you alot.

Hope

[adrift]

Hi Jac and thanks for the insight.  Your DD does sound a lot like mine.  You wrote

So in reading your thread, Adrift, and taking stock of my own experiences, I got the feeling that you made the same mistake I was making with my own daughter, which can still be rectified now if you try it:  that is reenforcing and rewarding her bad behavior.

Yep, I've  finally realized that apparently the reason she likes to stir stuff up to epic proportions whenever she's at home is because it gets her 1) attention  (but I swear she gets positive attention when she behaves but I guess she likes the fireworks kind of attention---being the whole center of the universe) and 2) she feels in control when she has us all upset with me crying, DD2 crying because her sister hates her and DH switching from trying to reason with her to raging at her.


There's one thing I did that I didn't tell because I'm so ashamed of myself.  But I'm gonna tell it now.  We just built this house and moved in here a year ago. ((Without bragging, I'd like to insert that we were fortunate enough to be able to build a really nice house in the top neighborhood.  It's on a lake, has a beautiful yard and you'd think she'd enjoy it and like it just a tad------but no, not her))  Even though DD1 was moving away to college, I built her her own bedroom which means we built a 4 bedroom house.  DS had never had his own room but had always shared with DD2 (because DD1 and DD2 CANNOT get along).  Well, for the first 3 months we were in here, which coincided with her first 3 months of college, she spent exactly one night here (college town is only 45 minutes away AND she wasn't working and was only taking 12 hours).  She did drop by for the briefest of visits about 5 times during those 3 months, especially when she needed something.  Still her visits were horrible events.  In the year we've been here she's maybe spent 4 nights here----that is how much she has hated us and wanted to be away from us.  Anyway, back to what I did that I'm ashamed of.  Before we moved in here, we painted her room the color she selected, put in pretty carpet and moved in her stuff but didn't unpack her boxes----stupid me thought she'd have some interest in her own room. And with all I had to do I certainly didn't and don't think that unpacking her boxes is my job.  She had no problem decorating and unpacking in her apartment in college town.   But nope, the stuff is still in boxes (this being the stuff she doesn't need in her apartment-- like old trophies, photo albums, pictures,  old shoes, etc... ) When I tried to talk with her about curtain colors she didn't have any time for that and one day about 4 months ago during a conversation I said something to her about us missing her and about her bedroom needing to be worked on and because she didn't want to be bothered with us or home or her new room, she blurted out hatefully "I DON'T LIVE THERE ANYMORE"   You could have knocked me over with a feather.  Soooooooooo, I said "o.k." and then unbeknownst to her we moved her bed into her brothers room because it worked much better in there, and made her "bedroom" into an upstairs office.  And to this day it is still an office. She got pissed about it when she did finally come home one day and found out she no longer had a bed in her bedroom and she said/says I had/have  emotionally hurt her and I have "just given her one more reason to not come home"     Yes, I feel on the one hand like I did a terrible thing, but we did need the office space and Miss Princess made it plain she didn't care about the room.  Then again maybe it will prove to be a good does of reality.  When she does come home for the night (maybe once every two months) she sleeps in her brothers room since he sleeps in our room with us now, so she has her  bed all to herself, it's just not in HER room.  ((FYI, DS sleeps in our room in a little junior bed because he has trouble breathing at night sometimes and I need to be able to hear him so I can get up and get his meds for him when necessary))

I no longer ask her if or when she's gonna come home and have totally forbidden her sister to ask her about it either.  She knows the door is open for her.  I have told her that the bedroom can be converted back into a bedroom and asked her about curtain colors, but I'm kinda leaving that ball in her court.  When she shows a little interest in being a part of this family then we'll change the room back---but that's not what I've said to her. 

The rest of us are now carrying on happily and are living our lives.  I speak with her daily on the phone, usually she calls me, and it seems to be working out better like this.  The four of us, me, DH, DS and DD2 get along very well and have good, fun, happy times together.  DD1 has always been the cog that wouldn't fit.  One more possible explanation for DD1's behaviour is that I let her spend WAY too much time with my MIL when she was young.  Up until about age 12 she spent a lot of time with them and my MIL is an N that totally rules her roost (meaning my FIL) and makes everyone around her either mad or uncomfortable.  I could tell you about her but you'd swear I was making it up. Anyway, if I'd had a clue that being around her might have affected DD1, I wouldn't have let them spend so much time with her. My MIL totally doted on DD1, made her literally the queen, the princess---bragged on her, dressed her in finery, spent lots of time and money on her-------way more than any of the other grandkids got.  Funny thing is, now DD1 can't stand to be around her grandmother because she sees her for what she is.

 Jac also wrote

my daughter wasn't so much interested in what was fair, no matter what she said, she was interested in getting her own way.  Period.

Yep, BINGO, that's it.  That's how DD1 has always been and in calmer times has admitted to me that when she wants her way she wants it to badly that she can literally feel it in her bones and feels as if SHE JUST ABSOLUTELY HAS to have her way. 

Guess I'll stop now.  Thanks everyone.

Adrift

[adrift]

Jac wrote:

I think, Adrift, if you recognized for your Daughter, the name of the game is control you will be in a better place emotionally.  If she can control those around her - how close they get to her (because it's so scary); how much attention she gets (a lot when I'm acting bad and crazy because deep inside I feel I am bad and crazy) then she feels safe.  Remember, inside your daughter does not feel she deserves good treatment (that is why she encourages bad treatment and reinforces it with her bad behavior) she does not feel she deserves to be loved (that's why she only has relationships with men who treat her badly.)

HUH????????? I mean, I understand the words you used, I just don't understand how she can feel "safe" by reinforcing "bad and crazy" behaviour.   I know that people "teach others how to treat them" and that she has low self-esteem (she's admitted as much) and that's why she lets guys walk all over her,,,,,,,,,,,,but I'm still just plain struggling with the whole thing.

I think, because it's worked in my life, once you disconnect from the need (not from you daughter) but from the need to get the response you'd like out of her, you will begin to see things in a whole different light.

I think you are right!! I'm learning to let go of any fantasies and hopes I had about she and I being close and I'm  learning to just accept life as it is.  I don't understand why she doesn't feel comfortable with people being "close" to her, but I believe you hit the nail on the head there.  And you are totally correct about the control, although I don't understand her desperate need for that either.  She has made new friends (and has managed to maintain those friendships for a number of months now) and is so close to them, but yet rejects us   ((Well, I guess she is close to them, she talks about them all the time but I've only met a few of them)) But that is o.k.,  I'm learning to accept that.  We can pick our friends but we can't pick our families, right??  I'm very thankful that DD2 and I really click--she and I are so much a like and SHE LIKES ME AND LIKES BEING WITH ME---AND SHE'S 14!!!--what a huge difference from her sister. DS is a joy as well.  I'm sure I've mentioned he has Down Syndrome and he's just the lovingest, sweetest child.  DD1 always seemed to love him so much, but she never comes home to see him and doesn't even ask about him most the times when she calls.  I guess she's just so caught up in her own life she doesn't have room for the rest of us.  It's sad, though, because DD2 and DS love her so much (not exactly sure why) and she does't have time for them. 

 Maybe if I give you an example of how my MIL acts this will give you more info so that you can help me understand DD1.  My MIL has always treated my FIL as if he is dirt.  I've been married into this family for nearly 21 years and I've never heard her praise him, compliment him, never seen her treat him with love, kindness, concern, etc........  She publicly and privately berates him and it is EMBARASSING! which is why no one wants to be around them.  My FIL is a smart man, had a good job with lots of responsibility, was head deacon in the church for years, salt of the earth kind of fella, honest as the day is long, kind, gentle, understanding--------the kind of husband many women would love to have and yet he married and has put up with this emotional abuse for almost 50 years.  MIL is very haughy, always has been, and she thinks she knows everything and she puts FIL down constantly telling him he doesn't know what he's talking about while the rest of us secretly roll our eyes because she's SO wrong about whatever the subject matter is.  She's an idiot and everyone who knows her knows it ----except for her.  Why does no one stand up to her?? Because she'll begin to cry and then make FIL's life miserable once they get home.  I stood up to her once about 10 years ago and she and I verbally gave each other "what for".  She cried for 2 weeks, FIL made my DH come over to their house a number of times to talk to her and calm her down and explain to her that everything was gonna be o.k.   I didn't threaten the woman in anyway,,,,I just simply told her that if she had something to say about me to say it to my face and not to DH and that I was tired of being put down by her in front of the family  and from there she named every bad quality of mine she could think of. I countered with my own list of her bad qualities and I guess no one has stood up to her for so long she was shocked beyond belief.  Would you believe my FIL (with whom I've always gotten along with wonderfully) was actually peeved with me for a while?? He didn't say so but I could tell by the way he acted.  I don't know if it was because I upset the apple cart or because her weeks of crying made his life so much more misearable.  Anway, that was years ago and she hasn't crossed me since and in fact treats me with much more respect than she does her own daughter.    A few weeks ago my FIL was horribly sick with a virus and I called to ask if I needed to bring him anything and all MIL could do was bitch about how he'd been throwing up and how horrible he sounded when he did (the sound bothered her) and how she had to Lysol every room in the house so she wouldn't get sick.  I asked again if he was o.k. and did I need to bring some gatorade or anything and again all she could talk about was her having to spray lysol!!!!!!!    She can't live without this man and yet she cares nothing for his welfare.  And when I say she can't live without him, it's because he does the following: all the cooking, all the cleaning, pays all the bills (she cries if she has to write a check---she gets nervous ), he drives her to every dr. appointment (she can't drive anymore) , he does all the grocery shopping, he bathes her, he dresses her, he even wipes her butt on a regular occassion because she can't control herself  , and she walks with a walker.  She's an invalid of her own making because she loves being doted on 1000%.   She falls all the time, yet has never broken a bone---how can they be true falls if she's yet to break anything???????? Then she'll have FIL drive them to go out to dinner and she'll recount her fall to whomever is around to listen!!!!!!!!!

Oh, I should add she wasn't nearly this bad when DD1 was young and spent time with them.....but MIL has always been terribly bossy to FIL and treated him with no love or concern at all.  One time years ago MIL said about FIL,  in a very haughy manner, "I know he loves me, I KNOW he does" ---it was really weird, kinda like how a criminal would brag on how perfectly he had executed a crime---with only pride but no conscience.  So I wonder if MIL keeps FIL jumping through the hoops to this day (and the hoops become more numbered by the year) just to prove to herself that he loves her----not that she knows what love is.  FIL told me years ago that if something happens to him to just put her in a nursing home because no one else could do to suite her----well, neither can he.   He needn't worry, I'm sure she'll outlive him because he's stressed to the point of breaking now and she's totally clueless as to how precariously her life hangs.   When he's gone, she'll be placed somewhere and no one will ever visit her, because no one, not even her own kids or grandkids, like her. 

I used to really like my FIL a lot and felt sorry for him and then decided that she is his Frankenstein to a large degree---he should have walked out on her years ago and I don't usually advocate such measures.  I have no respect for him anymore, he has allowed her to totally immasculate him as far as I'm concerned.  I guess being the good man he is, he didn't/ doesn't believe in divorce and he kept thinking all through the years that if he just gave in a little here and a little there that she'd be satisfied.  WRONG !!---but it's too late now, Frankenstein lives and is destroying her ennabler and the hand that feeds her.

Sorry for the additional ramble but I have LOTS more stories if anyone is bored