What's My Agenda?

[penelope]

One thing I've noticed with all the scurrying about on the board lately is that we all seem to have an agenda. 

Some of us want to be thought of as powerful (and thus talk about the need to "take back one's personal Power").

others as smart or clever

still others as spiritual/religious (god is all-knowing, hand it over to Him).

and finally there are some here that, no matter what, will tout whatever one does or says here, one should not think of themselves as a victim, of anything.  So don't subscribe to any groups, cause well, that would be making yourself a victim of - group norms 

Kinda seems silly to me that we all have these individual needs and agendas.  Wouldn't it be easier if we all just needed the same thing?  I also thought, one's needs may not necessarily be anothers, but how do you decipher what another needs here, if they can't even figure it out?  Is that why a lot of the advice I've noticed on this board is sort of hit or miss?  It sort of depends on where I've come from maybe, specifically what I need to work on?  Maybe that's why some of us seem to click and others...well, ya know.  But I also started wondering if paying attention to the people who can really get under my skin is crucial for some reason.  Is there a message there, something that God (or whoever it is you happen to believe in, if different) needs to tell me, maybe?  If so, what is that message???  Where is my agenda and what does it say about me?   Can I change it?

Anyway, with all these personal agendas floating around and starting to become more obvious to me the more detached I became, I began to wonder what mine is.  I wondered if the act of truly becoming happy means letting go of agendas.  Just letting myself Be.

hmmm, just a weird thought that struck me.  Anybody have any ideas about this?

pb

[Certain Hope]

Hi Pb,

Don't think I'm following your line of thought here too well, but I'd like to try to understand better, so I began by looking up the word agenda. Wanted to get the definition as per Webster, because I had the notion that this word was never intended to have the negative connotations it sometimes does these days. Seems to me that often when someone is said to "have an agenda" that statement is made in a derogatory way, implying that the individual is self-absorbed, even to the point of being oblivious to the impact of his course on others. I guess it's important to me that when we use words like this, we're all thinking of them in the same way and applying the same meanings? Definition of terms seems to be crucial to clear communication. Anyhow, per Webster:

Agenda ~  A list or program of things to be done or considered: “They share with them an agenda beyond the immediate goal of democratization of the electoral process” (Daniel Sneider).
A plural of agendum.

Having an agenda, in and of itself, seems like a positive thing to me... a matter of not only being an individual, but also being an integrated, whole personality with set goals and a plan for achieving those goals. I'm thinking that where the trouble comes in is when one individual makes it an item on his agenda to tell another what her agenda ought to be? Maybe if we just keep our hands off our neighbor's agenda, we'd be free to pursue our own with no harm done?

Hope

[portia guest]

Food for thought there pb, thank you.

What do we all want? I’ll take a guess at ‘acceptance’: to be accepted for just exactly who we are.

Maybe self-acceptance is the way to that, because I don’t think everyone is going to accept everyone. You can’t please all of the people, all of the time and I guess you won’t find people that please you, all of the time either.

A narcissist needs supply. If someone needs to be a supplier, I guess that’s a good fit. Someone who was beaten as a child may have a deep need to beat others. Do we say that’s okay, that’s their right, to fulfill that need? We’re not all the same.

but how do you decipher what another needs here, if they can't even figure it out?

One way i think to find out someone’s needs is to watch their behaviour. If there’s a specific need, it will keep reappearing. I need to explain myself a lot I think, I need to be understood and to understand others, a variety of others, I have a need to keep learning, to keep observing. Some needs are helpful, some harmful, some neutral I guess (depends on your point of view and your needs...). It’s all grey and hard work to work out I think. I just keep at it.

But thinking specifically about you, if it another's needs you're thinking of...and they don't know themselves - and they say so when asked - then the answers might lie in their childhood - what needs weren't filled, what were repressed, what events had a significant effect on them etc. But for someone close to me, I find I observe and gently ask but back off from too much asking. I ask myself, why do I 'need' to know anyway, what bothers me - etc. I'm thinking of your bf here. I might be off track there. Thing is, if someone's behaviour bothers me, someone close to me, I'll say so and ask why do you do that? and can you not do it? That leaves the reasoning - whether or not to respect my wish, whether or not to respect me - up to them. If they don't respect me....ha, I used to try and 'help' them! Not any more, not those close to me.

[moonlight52]

Hi pb ,

I sure do like this train of thought maybe our agenda is what we use to protect us .

But there are certain needs needs like respect and love the wanting to be understood .

Also maybe our needs change as we grow and circumstances change in our lives nothing stays the same.

We receive strength from those that are in the "like" mode we are in and maybe should learn from those that we seem to be
at "odds" with .

Is that what you mean pb?

Moon

[penelope]

Hi hope,
sorry about being vague - I guess I need the word-smiths here to see through my poor wording, and sloppy writing...  bad grammer, spelling, even finding neutral words, are sort of optional with me.  I like to keep things fuzzy - objective - probably because I don't really have a preference for where it goes, wherever you feel it needs to go, that's fine by me.  Lots of people don't get me here, I'm sure you didn't mean any offense by that, and none taken, but sort of like moon, you can take the meaning of what I write too literally - just scan it for major thoughts, things that resonate with you, to just kind of get the gist of what I'm saying, the pattern of the words, and the "feel" of them, and then - deduce the rest.  If you're thinking good thoughts about yourself, you tend to think good thoughts about others, that's one thing I've noticed.    

Sure, an agenda can be a good thing, yes.  I don't think I implied it couldn't..or did I?  Actually, I try to avoid making judgment calls like this - it entirely escapes my mind whether something is good or bad.  I think this comes from growing up with N Mom who always liked to point that out about things. The produce today is BAD.  I'm totally disappointed in lettuce.  But no, I try not to go there.  The post wasn't made with any thinking about agendas being good or bad, just There.  They just exist.  You can agree with the facts but not agree with the emotion, but you still agree with the facts, no?  In this case, I had no emotions about agendas, but perhaps you did?


portia,
hi.  you always seem to "get me," even when I don't write well.  thanks    

One way i think to find out someone’s needs is to watch their behavior. If there’s a specific need, it will keep reappearing.

This is very true.  so so true.  I like watching behaviors.  I'm not into controlling them, but I do love to watch.

Those are some great thoughts about needs...I'll have to think about them some more.  Finding out another's need is tricky, especially when they don't want to admit the need to themself.  

pb

[penelope]

woops, sorry moon, I hit send then overwrote the Red thingee.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.

hope your family member is feeling better.

hugs,
pb

[Certain Hope]

Hi again, Pb,

  I didn't think that you were being vague, just that I wasn't tuning in to the whole picture of what you were sayin. I saw that as a lack in myself, not anything to do with your wordsmithing skills. I understand better now, thanks. I agree with what you said about thinking good thoughts, too. I think of it as having a right heart... like a clean conscience... so that when I relate to others, I'm able to assume the best of them, too. Sadly, not all folks have the best of intentions, but I like to hope that they do, at least until they prove otherwise.

   I didn't think you'd implied anything about the word "agenda"; that's why I wanted to define the term, because I'm aware that, depending on context, it can have either good or bad connotations. I guess I wasn't sure of the context here. Now I see that there really was none... I think. A meeting agenda might be seen as positive, but a personal agenda may be viewed as negative? I really hadn't given it any further thought beyond trying to define what sort of agenda we would be discussing. Personally, I'd like to maintain good, positive emotions about agendas rather than frame them in a negative light. Maybe that's because organization is important to me... to have a plan, a method in mind for how to achieve whatever seems important in life.

[penelope]

hi Hope,

I like your calm manner of responding.  It helps me to reflect.  Thank you.  I have to admit, I was a little afraid to come back here and see what you'd responded as people seem to have their dukes up lately.  Is it real, me projecting, or being oversensitive?  Who knows.  But it's something I struggle with as I've tried to find and keep my voice.  I've noticed that the savy-er you are with words here, the more "attention" you'll get too.  Sometimes that's hard to cope with.  Sometimes I don't jump into those arguments/conflicts cause I'm not sure I can follow all that's being said with any of the sophistication I see.  And then I'll say one little thing, and someone will be all over me about it being Bullying.  Give me a break, almost any post can be misconstrued that way, if you state your opinion about anything and it differs than someone else's you are now "bullying them."  But if you agree, it's constructive.     I need to learn to separate these feelings and thoughts out more, I know that.  I don't like being silenced and a lot of times I think it's I'm simply not fast enough on my feet here.

Some of us want to be thought of as powerful (and thus talk about the need to "take back one's personal Power").

others as smart or clever

still others as spiritual/religious (god is all-knowing, hand it over to Him).

and finally there are some here that, no matter what, will tout whatever one does or says here, one should not think of themselves as a victim, of anything.  So don't subscribe to any groups, cause well, that would be making yourself a victim of - group norms 

I wouldn't say any of the above are negative, necessarily.  It's what most of the people I work with want - it's what gets them to work or school or keeps them going.  It's the healthy N that works for us rather than against us.  Deciding which one people want, and not putting a negative spin on it so they reject it, and then giving it to them is the tricky part.

One thing I've noticed is that if you ask most people:  do you care about making a lot of money? 

Their response is:  Oh no, me, no money is not that important to me.

Hello?  Yes it is.  Personally, I'd like to retire to Montana by the time I'm 45.  So Money is Very very important, in order for me to meet this goal.  But it's not a bad thing.  I've got plans once I get there and they include all the wonderful things money can help with, and security.


BTW, here's a little link to that thing about agreeing with the facts of what someone has said but not the (often implied) emotions.  I didn't invent this about language, but I do find it interesting.  We all do this:
http://philosophy.lander.edu/logic/nonarg.html

Oh shoot, I guess it's buried in this website somewhere.  I'll have to find it again..standby

pb

[Hopalong]

PB...
MONTANA! Wow. Good for you for that agenda! Seriously.
I think it's awesome that you have that kind of plan and goal.

I have so many regrets that I was vague and ignorant about money.

Can I come visit? 

I used to loooooove reading books like My Friend Flicka or The Green Grass of Wyoming.

Though I've been to Europe I've never explored the American west.

Old dream...I imagine renting a nice RV, loading up dog and laptop, taking off...

Hops

[Certain Hope]

Hi again, Pb,

   You're welcome... I didn't see any reason to be other than calm? At times I can be pretty dense, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, I don't think ....     I hope that you'll always feel free to be yourself in posting here, too. Sophistication is not all it's cracked up to be, imo. In fact, I often think that simple is best. When a person speaks from her heart, other hearts are touched. Not all, sadly, but the ones that are able to receive and give in return... the true, lasting gifts.
 
    The way I look at it, it's very important to choose a battle wisely. I feel that each time I disagree, I expose myself to the possibility of being misunderstood at best, or at worst, rejected, so I wouldn't ordinarily express a contrary opinion unless it was re: something that was very important to me.

   You know, I remember on other threads that the question was asked of someone (paraphrased) "Do you feel like you have to say that about yourself? Do you need for others to know that about you?"  I don't recall what the situation was back then, and it doesn't really matter what or who was involved... the thing is, that same question has been popping into my head often lately. And the answer is, "yes". Yes, I really do need to keep telling ... whether it's about my faith, my thoughts, how I feel about something... even if I know it's something that will raise a # of eyebrows and quite possibly put me into a position where I feel defensive. I have to keep telling... not because I feel invisible or think I have all these valuable things to say, but because I'm still afraid to disagree. I have to keep speaking up until that fear is gone. And by the way, some of the most constructive changes my own growth life have been brought about by those who disagree with me, so I'm not a bit reluctant to be disagreed with. I am babbling, huh.    Think I caught your migraine.

You said, "Deciding which one people want, and not putting a negative spin on it so they reject it, and then giving it to them is the tricky part."   
   Is that really what we're supposed to do? Try to peg what folks want so we can supply it?  I dunno, Pb, that strikes me as manipulative. Maybe within intimate relationships,  all we can do is provide an environment where our significant other feels safe to explore what it even is that he/she wants. I know for myself, I was such a people pleaser for most of my life that I couldn't have told you what I wanted if you'd paid me.
   I think I'm wandering all over the place in this response, but I've appreciated the opportunity to think aloud. If you find the link you were searching, I'd like to check it out.

  Hope

[penelope]

hops, Bring your doggies, RV and laptop and come see us then!  yippie 
sheesh, if you love open fields, trees and fresh air you're welcome anytime. 

hope, that's a good question, I'll have to think about if one should be giving people what they want or if that's sorta codependent..  I think I was kind of thinking of it in a general way, such as when someone says they're Praying for Me.  I typically offer "thank you."  I guess that's appropriate?  But what if I'd said: oh, don't do That for me, that's not necessary... It could kind of hurt their self-image of wanting to be thought of as a spiritual, helpful person, ya know?

OK, these and other weird things I ponder, as I wonder how people become friends anyway.  Is it because you share their (ideal) vision of who they are with them?  Like, maybe this is a safer example: we have these friends, they're a couple, and they love boating.  It's very popular where I live, we're about a mile from a major Lake.  Anyway, they just think the sun rises and sets over this lake.    Imagine what would happen if while explaining to me how they just put in a 40K garage for this monstrous boat of theirs, I said:  I always thought those things to be sort of loud and polluting, glad you like them though.   

That's all I meant.  If you figure out what someone's agenda is (sort of) it allows you to be more sensitive and possibly supportive of them and their happiness.  Or at a minimum, keeps foot in mouth disease at bay a little, I hope.  What do you think?

pb

[Certain Hope]

Pb, well.... I'm afraid that in asking what I think you're inviting another load of rambling here, but I'll give it a shot (weird day here).

 Re: giving people what they want (or what we think they want) ~ I guess it depends on our reason for giving? (Not just material possessions, but all sorts of gifts... our time, our energies, our two ears to listen....)

Some people seem to give for the sake of making an impression...  hmm, that's right back to what you were saying to begin with, isn't it >>

"Some of us want to be thought of as powerful (and thus talk about the need to "take back one's personal Power"). others as smart or clever, still others as spiritual/religious (god is all-knowing, hand it over to Him). and finally there are some here that, no matter what, will tout whatever one does or says here, one should not think of themselves as a victim, of anything.  So don't subscribe to any groups, cause well, that would be making yourself a victim of - group norms"

>> I think I'm finally getting it. That was your whole point in the first place, I think. Does everything we do/ say/ give/ whatever ultimately come down to building up ourselves .. some image of ourselves that we want to portray? Our agenda?

Can't say I didn't warn ya about my denseness. I do see, now. Better thank you in advance for your patience, because no doubt this won't be the last time it takes me a few go-rounds to see the light.

I'm glad you used the example of someone offering to pray for you, because that's a bit firmer ground for me. Personally, I don't say that to someone unless I know that it means to them what it means to me. Ok, how can I know? I have to assume a bit there, but I mean... if I know that we share the same foundational beliefs. If I don't know that, then why am I even saying it? Seems that would be a bit meaningless to me. Not that I wouldn't pray for the person, but I wouldn't announce that to them. People say all sorts of meaningless things, I think, simply because they don't know what else to say. Or maybe they're just afraid of silence.
Anyhow, if you truly don't believe in prayer, I don't see anything wrong with saying so to the person offering. If they're for real, they're not going to take offense. If they're just saying it for the purpose of filling a silence or because it's one of their favorite stock phrases to hold up this image they've created for themselves, then I think it'd do them good to wake up and smell the coffee? I've encountered plenty of people who know all the lingo re: prayer, spirituality, God, and all things religious... complete with bumper stickers to match... but you see the reality behind the image when they pull outta the church parking lot and some guy cuts them off. Tis not a pretty picture. I'm all for fake masks being shown for what they are... vain and useless. Not suggesting it's wise to go around looking for people to unmask, but when you're face to face with one... is it really your job to contribute to his delusion/illusion?

The boat thing... heh... I think I'd nod and smile. I think that's a bit different because it's a matter of personal preference and not an issue of integrity/ reality. I might agree that boats are noisy polluters, but I'm not going to burst my friend's bubble on that topic. Instead, I think I'd be happy that they were happy with it and let it go at that.

Pb, to me, a true friend is one who not only doesn't mind if I disagree with her, but actively encourages me to let her know if I see any reality deficit goin on in her life... and I would value and encourage her to do the same for me. I don't think it ever should be about sustaining an illusion, but rather about striving with them, mutually encouraging each other, to reach the ideal. Shared dreams?  Yeah, I think so.

Hope you have a great night, Pb.

Hope

[penelope]

thanks hope.  you too (and I'll say a little prayer for you)    I do pray sometimes, I'm just not that comfortable with it as it's kinda new to me in the last - oh - 25 years or so (but I did it spontaneously as a child, go figure)

I think we will get along ma-v-eolously as friends   

night night
pb

[Certain Hope]

Ppppp Bbbbbbbbbb     Friends sounds great!  But......... I am not a feminist 

Oh to be child-like and yet not child-ish.... Amen. Just finished watering our dustbowl outside and settling in for the night here.

Hugs, Pb

Hope