Healthy Relationships

[pennyplant]

This N dude must not have a clue about life and that is sad .And not only do you have the clues you have all the keys.
But it hurts when others do not have the same sensibility.



I believe on this board there have been some beautiful healing standards established.That's what is done here supporting each other and real learning.

Being on your journey of discovery can lead you to claim your individual power.
I  know this is true then at times I will get hurt and think somethings wrong with me again.

LOVE TO YOU PennyPlant.............................................My tummy's better ............How's your garden?
p.s. pp you maybe just letting too much of their stuff flow into you.REMEMBER pb's invisible see thu shield to protect yourself with!!!!!!!!!!!!
moon

Yes, Moon, it is sad that he is so clueless, though sometimes I remind myself, he has built up something all his life that helps him to deal with life.  It would be dangerous to dismantle that.  But very sad it is, in my opinion.  He doesn't seem very sad at all.  I guess it works for him.

I like this idea of my journey of discovery helping me claim my individual power.  It's hard, though.  Not really one of my talents.  Very hard work.  Yes, I have been letting too much of their stuff flow into me.  That is it exactly.  I think I must find a graceful way to stop working there.  I will think on it.

I'm happy with my gardens lately.  They are slowly finding their shapes.  I can see some things that need doing and am making a small plan for what will be worked on in the fall this year.  Yes, the gardens are coming together and I can enjoy looking at them again.  They were overwhelming to me for a couple of years.  Seems to be changing for the better now.

Thank you, Moon.  This really helps.  Love, Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

here's the kicker--I wonder if I held sustaining interest in myself. Whether in all those hopeless fixations I was complete and grounded enough in my own purpose to weather rejection or caprice of another without being rattled off my foundation. I don't think I was. I think I am moreso, now.

Is that anything like the way you feel?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

But one thing I'm pretty sure of...if I DO detect strong Nism in someone, I don't think the attraction will come to life. I think it'd literally die between my ears, because I truly can't bring myself to fantasize recklessly any more. I want it real, as real as friendship. Based on real reciprocal caring, or I'll be...too busy. It won't be theh right thing to do. I don't find my old capacity to obsess beautiful or romantic any more.

It's like a belated vow. Not being my own enemy any more. In terms of love, I would like the dearest frriend in all the world to be my man. And if that's not going to come my way, I'll just be spreading it around instead of focusing it so much on one person. (Maybe that's what I was meant to do anyhow.)

I'm sorry to ramble on about myself so much but I was wondering if any of it might ring a bell for you. Since you're exposing yourself intentionally to this pain.

Ow.

Do you really deserve to be punished?

(You know what I think, right?)

((((PP)))))

Hops

Yes, Hops, this is a lot like how I feel.  I believe I'm not as far along as you but it is a lot like what I feel.  I am not grounded in my purpose at all.  It is extremely easy to rock my foundation.  I don't think I have much of a foundation yet.  There are the ingredients for one.  But I'm floundering in the construction of it.

The current problem I've made for myself has to do with having got sucked in before I realized that I was dealing with someone so unhealthy.  He is how I learned what N is.  So, my current problem is one of extrication.  Along with the foundation building.  It's all so distracting and confusing when I'm feeling weakened.

Yes, this intentional exposure is painful.  Very painful.  My unasked question was, in fact, am I just punishing myself now?  Have I learned enough?  And to go further in this direction, is it just some kind of punishment?  That is the thing I was unsure of.  Looks like, as I said to Moon, it is time to get off this particular path to enlightenment.  Now I'm just spinning my wheels.

It will take me some time to come up with the graceful exit.  Since it is not going away by itself as I hoped a couple weeks ago.  In fact, my time with this person has increased, unfortunately.  Sometimes I just leave myself too open to situations like this.  No wonder other people are so resistant to change and putting themselves out there.  It's not always good for you to be open to unknown situations.  I think I have led my lfe quite aimlessly.  It has led to a quite a mixed bag of experiences.

Hops, you are very right about these things.  It is hard for me to work on this but that is going to have to be the next step.  Thanks. 

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

I think when we were talking about healthy types, we weren't talking about those polished N acts that have created a set up to receive an endless supply of supply for the rest of their lives, the so called well-adjusted ones engaged in their re-created FOO-like soups (the cheerleader gang).  Nor do we mean "happy carrots" - perhaps some of whom on the way to building what polished N acts have and others of whom get the call - pick up the golden feather, begin a conscious journey, begin the second half of life.  I'm thinking that we're thinking that healthy types (not those with supper polished images of healthy), are those who function with a natural ease of respectful communication when they talk with their friends in a restaurant were both feel energized at the end (not aroused) nor a case of one playing adult or parent (yuck) and the other child.  Healthy one experience pleasure, not chemical rushes of addicted activity or sedative intakes.  I've eaten alone for most of my life and when I do so in restaurants, I can so much feel the energy.  Yeah, most of time, it's some need/painful/co-dependency set up.   Other times, it's some kind of game-playing, but sometimes, I'll see two women gently and warmly bouncing the conversational ball back and forth - and I can sense what all this aura talk is about (I don't think I've ever seen two men doing this).  But if you or I met those two women, they may extend how sad they feel for seeing us in pain and they even in their hearts wish to help but like you said, they have busy lives and probably feel overwhelmed at the task of making friends with us, plus the whole birds of a feather thing.  So in my case, I wish to grow up, be healthy and be able to interact with these healthier types (ie:  be able to gently bounce a conversation ball back and back without being in a constant regressed child state begging/vying for love, guidance and approval from the surrogate parent in front of me.  Or if one does regress, then it's safe to do, tears come out, then one says, thanks for being there holding me, my honour comes the reply.  Gosh, I feel sloppy with this ramble.  I hope my meaning still comes across.  In other words, I want to have a normal friendship, the kind that's talked about in books on friendship.  I have one little book called, 1,000 paths to friendship.  I look forward soon, to being able to have friends.  I trust it will happen.  About what you said, "Hops, I'm going to say it---- POOR ME!!!"
I felt that it a good way.  I know, I believe you are mourning something in that sentence.

Polished N-acts--oh, how those people confuse me!!!  And the thing is, I know it is fake, I have known that all my life.  I used to get in debates with these people in the classroom, somehow thinking I could educate them about their own fakeness.  How dumb!!  They would get so angry and defensive.  No wonder I was quite the unpopular girl.  All that rejection just made me doubt my own two eyes.  My weak foundation got me in trouble every time.

Happy carrots, I like that.  I will look for an opportunity to say that sometime    .  That will be fun!

Yes, Anansi, I am mourning many things.  Probably most of them are illusions I've had for so long.  The real me is starting to rise to the surface every so often and she does feel familiar and likeable.  I would say this place is helping me with laying the illusions to rest and with giving me opportunities to do the necessary mourning.  It does me no good to fight the grief or try to stuff it.  Just going to have to feel it.

Eating alone in restaurants--I do that at lunch time most work days.  Where I go most of the government workers eat and also some of the city council persons do their schmoozing there.  They do all take themselves so seriously.  It is rare to see real sharing and back and forth.  Often, when I see it, it turns out the people are from Europe.  I think you've said you're Canadian.  Do you find a difference that way by nationality in your neck of the woods?  Could be just another of my illusions of how people are.

Thanks, Anansi, you got me thinking.  Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

Anytime a person lives her life in such a way that it's the truth which threatens to pull the rug out from under her, I know that I'm the odd voice out. There is constant internal pressure to conform to the image which the other individual (or group) is committed to preserving. Once the outcast speaks, that pressure quickly shifts to external, and that, I think, is what it's imperative to learn to deal with in order to learn to accept your uniqueness as a gift.

  I just don't see how there can be genuine health unless it's founded on a deep appreciation and acceptance of the truth...  honesty and integrity... being the same person outside as we are inside, where no one can see unless we remove the mask. Of course, this presupposes the existence of an absolute truth, which is the one thing that many people will in no wise accept. It's so much more convenient if the truth is relative, but deadly to the spirit, I believe.

At any rate, I see health on this board, too. I see it in the strong desire to overcome the lies we've been told and the ones we've told ourselves, about who we are and what is required to live well in this world.

   It's not likely I'd spill my guts to D about Z. I might say, "I don't know" in response to the "he's so nice" and if she asks for more, look deeply into her eyes and see whether she really wants to know because she's caught a glimpse of something and seeks confirmation. If that interest is not present in her, then anything further I say is only likely to be grist for the office rumor mill, so I'd leave it at that. "I just don't know." That seems honest and real to me.

When the truth threatens to pull the rug out from under someone's life.... Oh that makes so much sense.  It explains so much about my life.

No, I won't tell D anything of my point of view.  In fact, we talk about other things that I find enlightening about what makes that kind of person tick.  She is so near the beginning of the journey, not very close at all to picking up Anansi's golden feather.  That is her journey, not mine.  When she said, Z is so nice, I just let it stand.  I doubt very much that he will ever step over the line he crossed with me, which I let him do, of course.  That was my part in this.

Hope, you have spelled out something important here and done it very clearly.  This is something that speaks to me, truth is one of my core values.  I don't always honor it.  But it keeps on waiting for me anyway.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

H & H, you really started something here.  I've learned so much from this thread.  Very timely too as a matter of fact.  Sometimes it works out good that way.

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

Hi PP,
I'd about chew my arm off and hand it to someone in a sandwich to prevent them from going through N heartbreak.

This may be boundary smashing (let me know if you think so) but if I saw a younger, more vulnerable woman appearing to fantasize about an N man I knew, I truly might want to say something to her when she mentioned him. Not sure what would be the right words, but maybe, with seriousness but no acid: "You know, it can be surprising how different some people are inside from how they seem." Just something like that, while making some caring eye contact. And then let it go...

I think I'd be troubled if I never said anything and I could see someone else headed for the same trainwreck.

After my hitting-bottom N, the thing that was sooooo healing was that I intentionally spoke to other women I knew had been involved with him. Both of them reacted the exact same way, god this is such a relief, I'm not crazy after all, he did the exact same thing with me. And they both said that the conversation had helped them to let go and move on (one had been in therapy for 4 years specifically to resolve her uncertainty and grief over him). Then later I met a woman at my church who asked if I knew him, and I said something similar to what I say above....

I know that we need to respect people's rights to make their own mistakes, but I'm all for warning the vulnerable if I can. (Of course it made HIM furious that I "blew his cover", but I realized I was well past minding that.) This is a big exaggeration, but it reminds me of the wives of bigamists when they get together...there's invariably such a bonding and comfort, once they're past the shock.

Hops

[pennyplant]

Hi Hops,

It's just so hard for me to know whether someone else is as vulnerable to this kind of thing as I apparently am.  It seems like these other women are better able to keep it in balance.  I do see the same signs in the others of having a "crush" but I don't know that it is as troublesome to them as it is to me.  They seem to understand right off the bat that it is some kind of game that will only go so far.  I wanted it to be a real relationship.  In fact, I thought it was real, though strange, because I tend to think that people mean the things they say and he talked about it as if it were real.  He even "broke up" with me!  That is how we came to be "friends."

I do know that one of the women consciously picked him as someone she couldn't have a real, consummated relationship with because she is not ready for that.  The fantasy part seems to meet some kind of real need she has.  What that need is, I do not know.  I do know her history, because she has told me most of it several times.  All I can say is there are people who dabble in this kind of stuff and it doesn't seem to effect them the way it does me.

Since I'm going to be working with D periodically, I can at least keep my conscience on high alert.  I did try once to say something about what he is like beneath the facade to one of his other woman friends.  She just brushed off my comments.  It didn't have anything to do with HER.  I have since observed that she treats men in that same way that Z treats women, so perhaps she has N tendencies of her own.  The other woman, D, seems not to be like that.  She seems genuinely too open and user-friendly.  On the other hand, she went to school with Z's wife.  Perhaps that might be something of an obstacle to letting it go as far as I did.  I know I would've been more careful if I knew his wife.  Since I didn't, it was easy for me to justify things.  I know, not a very fine part of myself.

Hops, I don't feel that your comments are boundary smashing.  I need for people to tell me like it is.  The thing is, it does seem to me that a lot of middle-aged married people (where I work anyway) enjoy this kind of "play".  "Work boyfriend" they call it.  Most of them seem to have that cushion that lets them deal with any possible disappointment.  I feel like I'm just incredibly naive to have let myself believe what I believed.  Plus, the physical setup of where I usually work and the schedule allowed for some "alone time" that fed it and made it seem possible.  Where he usually works now, they don't really have that.  So, I think D won't have to deal with him upping the ante with her because it won't be physically possible.

I don't know what I could say or when I could say it.  But I will pay attention in my conversations with her.  Be a little more together about it.

Actually, the other day I said something to him--about if he was going to have a harem, he would have to follow the rules about it and treat each member of the harem equally.  I suppose that went right over his head.  Or maybe I made it worse and now he is going to take his "responsbilities" in harem-maintenance to heart.  Instead of just breaking up the harem completely.  Oh, "head-shaking, forehead-slapping" emoticon here.

Sometimes I think my N-friend must have been somewhat off his game when he reeled me in.  The others just accept it when he does the ignoring thing and other inconsiderate behaviors.  They just don't see it the way I do.  I've been somewhat of a thorn in his side sometimes.  Not that it gets through to him.

This is definitely a difficult thing I got myself into.  I don't see it ever happening again, now that I have this knowledge.  One difficulty with this situation, is, I'm embarrassed that I was so naive about it.  And took it so seriously.  Letting go is very hard for me.  It seems like other people have better coping mechanisms.  I mean, I know people who "just stop thinking about it".  They are not really into soul-searching.

I would like to think that at this time next year, I'll be in a different place emotionally and will have left this behind.  It's going to be a lot of work, though.

Thank you, Hops.  It really is better to avoid getting into something like this than to have to get yourself out of it.

PP

[Anansi]

"Just rockin' the babies.  ... A gentle talk at a table, and then another. Breathing all the while." (Hops)

Thank you Hops for both!  I feel calmer when I think of what you said "just rockin' the babies"  (sigh) 
About this gentle talk, I would like to know if I could have the help of two people here.  Can one be my "tennis" conversation partner and can another on be my coach?  I need to learn how to do this, to form and maintain a calm flow when I talk to someone.

I wonder if Pennyplant or Hope or Write or Plucky or Beth can volunteer and if Hops, if you could be my coach? 

This new thread:  How about calling it:  A gentle talk at a table?

Whaddaya say?  It would mean a lot to me. 

I want to experience what a healthy normal conversation feels like. 

...

Hi PP,

"I think you've said you're Canadian.  Do you find a difference that way by nationality in your neck of the woods?"

I'm not sure if there's anything different I can offer on this one.  I sometimes get the impression that conversations are about who can be better at not reacting to what the other said, who can stay the coolest.  But one thing is for sure, which I suppose is a good thing, the moment the other person sees that I'm giving away most of my power to them, they'll either cut and run or milk it for all they can.  I perfer the former!  I feel such deep pain when I fall in the seduction of the latter and then it hurts the most, they cut and run after getting their fill feeling good about themselves.  There attitude is:  Hey, if he wants to give me all his energy and power, I'll take it, why not? 

Anansi

[pennyplant]

Anansi, I guess you can't tell from how I post on this board---but I'm a terrible conversationalist.  I'm very erratic.  I do like talking about real topics, which I suppose you do too.  I have a hard time starting a conversation.  I'm more of a responder.  It probably comes from not being answered when I said things to my parents.  And from being laughed at when I said things to my peers and in the classroom.  And perhaps from blurting things out and then people have no idea where I'm coming from or they think I'm just being blunt.

If you start the "Gentle Talk at a Table" thread I will try to participate.  But I'm probably as much of a student as you are.  If that's okay with you, it's okay with me.

I used to talk a lot as a kid.  Anything that came to mind.  I used to like to read outloud too.  But most everybody wanted me to shut up and eventually I did.  Now I second guess my words a lot.  My husband is very quiet and he admires my ability to talk well with other people.  I guess it's all in your perspective.  I know better about my "ability".  It's rough going sometimes.

PP

[Hopalong]

Anansi,
I am honored that you asked. I would be glad to gently offer "alternative dialogue" for you.
See who joins you at your table and how it flows, and I will try it this way:

When you say something that I can guess might have that over-intensity or over-vulnerability, if I think I'm perceiving that right, I'll just copy and paste a bit of your quote in a reply, and then put some kind of alternative response or remark that occurs to me might be helpful in brackets.

I won't editorialize (much  )...I'll just toss them in for you to look at. After it goes on a while, you can decide if it's illuminating or not. And I'll butt out whenever you like or when I feel redundant.

I think you'll have to stick out your neck and start the thread, though. (Want to start with the weather?)

Good luck!

Your brackets buddy,
Hops

[Anansi]

Thank you PP,
I will try my best to gently hit the ball over the net.  Dear Hops, I so much respect you, please feel free to coach soft or hard, whatever it takes.  PP, let's relax and practice.  I'll start off with a gentle serve about the weather (Thanks Hops for the starting topic, I'm smiling now because I virtually never talk about the weather). 
Anansi

[Certain Hope]

Dear Anansi,

  I'm sorry I missed your invitation to join the gentle table-talk, but I thank you so much for thinking of me...this made me smile
It's been a very busy day at my home and so I'm late here to catch up with my reading, but I wish you the best in your efforts!
I think it's an absolutely wonderful idea and I'll be here cheering you on

With love,
Hope

P.S.  We had some much needed rainshowers today