Is Guilt an Appropriate Feeling?

[Hopalong]

Hi Kelly...
You really are articulating more and more here, mixed in with the repeitive little bursts of rage. There's so much more rational thought, more assessment mixing in. That's GREAT.

I agree with Sela wholeheartedly...I think a seasoned Al-anon group would know exactly how to hear your anger without freaking out over it, and help you get beneath it to something more affirming of your life and your creating a hopeful path for yourself. Nobody ever gets down a path other than one step at a time. Nobody. So maybe the next step is to do the counseling AND do Al-anon just for yourself. It's nobody's business (NOT his, NOT hers) if you take that space for your own healing. That's the Anon part, right?

Meanwhile, had a little vision:

Kelly, thinking of the past: BANGING ON OWN HEAD WITH SKILLET. Dammit I wish I had learned self-love and made BANG BANG happier choices BANG that would bring me BANG more happiness BANG BANG at this point in my BANG life when everybody else in the BANG universe is more mature BANG than I am and BANG BANG and has more money too BANG and I really wish BANG I loved myself so BANG BANG BANG I wouldn't feel so much BANG pain.

(I was just wondering if you could have a put-skillet-on-stove and make sauteed ginger carrots ritual?) 

hugs,
Hops

[gratitude28]

Hops, Were you making fun of me with the Banging-On-The-Head-Thing???? Actually, I have more or less quit banging myself on the head. It just gives me a headache and hasn't changed anything.

Kelly, I definitely vote for Alanon. The rooms are great and filled with people who love you, warts and all. And you learn a lot of great coping skills. And, as hops said, it's for YOU , not about your husband. I wouldn't bother mentioning it to him. They have meetings all day and all night, so it should be something you could fit into your schedule if you wanted.
I also agree with hops that you are growing so much Kelly!!!!!! And I love hearing the determination in your voice (roaring like a lion, girl!!!).
Love, Beth

[Overcomer]

Well a couple of things have become clear to me here.  1.  Al-anon sounds like a really good idea for me.  2.  I apologize for my ranting and raving......and I thank you all for tolerating my immaturity..................3.  Banging my head with a pan is a good alternative to brick wall............especially if I hit myself...............I could lighten the blows..................a full run into brick wall banging is oh so hard on the head!!!

Thanks again for letting me go on and on and on about my nmom.............I think these angry outbursts have allowed me to get some of it out in a healthy way rather than let my nmom have it.

I realize that many people have stopped piping in here and it really is about three or four of you.............I super appreciate you all.  I have gotten a lot of perspective and it has helped.

I watched TD Jakes (not my favorite but I get tickled by his antics - and today I heard a very good word from him) and he said, these setbacks are getting you ready for something much bigger.  Maybe that is why I have this feeling of anticipation.  This feeling that something is about to give..............not sure what but it is a good feeling.

I have followed my weight watchers program all week and that feels like a victory to me.  I weigh in tonight and I know I didn't lose a lot but I wrote down every single thing everyday.  It was wonderful!!  I use this new online etool program and it is easier than writing it in a journal.........so that's good.

Thanks!!  Feeling pretty good.  (Well, part of that might be because I am in the middle of my cycle so no hint of PMS.....or hormones raging!!)

[Hops]

Hey Kelly,
I didn't mean to stick in BANG "mature" as a cue that you should call yourself immature!
(If you did, anyway, call me that too. But...NO. We're working out stuff, that's the opposite of immature!) I just had thought you were bashing yourself a lot...for not being a neurosurgeon.
(If it helps, I am downwardly mobile, professionally...but during these times of very little income, I have thought a lot about what matters to me. And even though on my own I will have a much less middle-class life one of these days...I really have come to feel NOT defined by professional status...or any other kind.)

Big hugs, glad you're having a happier day, congrats on your WW sticktoitiveness and kudos on opening your mind to Al-anon!

And please vent here as much as you need to about your Mom. Lots of us here have cycles where we need to rant for weeks about something until we've working the feelings through.

I'm not tired of you, and I'm not "tolerating" you. I'm glad you're here!

Hops

[Overcomer]

Thanks, I know I was irrational but the "mature" mention did set me back.  But that's ok because if I AM acting immature I need to be aware of it.......I'm used to irrational..............

Well, I went to WW tonight and actually gained .8 pound...............and I was doing so good at logging all my stuff on the computer.  The gal said to me, "Were you drinking all your water and eating the healthy choices (you know, fruits and veggies...)?"  Well, she got me there.  Even though I counted every point, a lot of the points were cake and ice cream and bread and pasta...not a lot of veggies...........and I have been thirsty all week but haven't really drank a lot of water.........SO that's my goal for this week.  Count every point but make the points healthy!!..  I should know better, I am insulin resistant and that is a precurser to diabetes and I have no reason to think that ingesting sugar is going to do anything but screw me!!!

Also had an appointment with an old friend to present my business to.  Kind of threw me, though.  She used the term "wiccan" and that scared me a little because I am a Christian and I consider wiccan kind of a witch thing which leans demonic IMO.....but she loved the botanically based products -  she's into Mother Earth and all so...................maybe she'll do good in my business.  We'll see......

Other than that...........well, I read that post about N mothers..............boy does that have my mom's picture on it!

[Hopalong]

I'm looking to you for inspiration too Kelly. I've gained almost 20 lbs in the last two years and I am addicted to sugar. Thanks for mentioning it. I have never counted calories and it's time I learned.

Really thanks for sharing that struggle.

Hops

[Overcomer]

Hops:  Being almost 47 makes it even harder.  When I was 27 and went on WW I lost 35 pounds quite easily.  I could cheat and still lose a pound or two.  Now?  I can be perfect and stay the same...................sugar is a huge thing for me.  I cannot metabolize it correctly.  It just swims around my body and lands on my stomach.  My whole life I carried all my weight on my legs.............now I have a gut!! Hate being middle aged!

[Overcomer]

Hello Everyone:  Well, just got back from a $100, 45 minute counseling session.  Didn't think I would cry and the first thing I did was cry.  I had sent the counselor an email with some of my rants and raves (complaints....) and my mom went to see him yesterday.  So when I came in he had already talked with her and read my email.  The first thing he said was "Why don't you set specific boundaries at work - who is in charge of what.  Who gets to decide what for what department, etc."  Well, I told him that it didn't matter because she would pull the "I own the store and I can do what I want" routine. 

Then basically, BOTTOM LINE, he said.  "Kelly, you are going to have to go back to that little girl who did not get what she needed from her (N-he didn't say it, but I am.......) mom and champion that little girl.  Grieve the loss of not having a good mother.  Take care of yourself.  Nurture yourself........"  Etc. Etc.  He told me that I am living my life in the grid that I frame my whole life in.  The "your ugly on the inside AND outside" grid.  The "fat fat" grid.  The "not worth my time so I'll leave you home alone" grid.  The "your not worth it to me to stick up for you" grid.  The "rebellious" grid.  The "snap-snap, don't bother me when I'm on the phone" grid.  The "your not important enough to me to go to your party at school" grid.

Well, I know all that.  I've read all the books, etc.  He asked me why I am trying to control my mom?  (she probably said that to him yesterday is all I can figure............)  And I told him I am not trying to control her, I just cannot stand to watch her posturing herself and to watch her love hearing herself speak........I told him I am sick of her making poor business decisions.

So all I got out of him was, it will be difficult to process all this hurt and still work with your mom, but it is not impossible.

So there you go.  Go champion little Kelly.  Somehow I will feel like a Narcissist if I start nurturing myself because I have had the feeling all my life that I am not worth the time or effort.  I'm not to look skinny and cute - that is reserved for nmom!!!

Oh, guys, I just hate her so much.  She is just such a b**ch.............I just don't know if I can be at work and watch her devalue the whole staff and allow her to emotionally abuse them.  I watch people respond to her with this "deer in the headlights" look and I just wonder why we all put up with her???

[pennyplant]

Aw, Kelly, I sure wish it had been less disappointing of a counselling session.
If only he had given you something new to work with.

I'm sorry it didn't go so well.

((((((((((Kelly)))))))))))))))

Love, Pennyplant

[Overcomer]

Penny:  Well, it wasn't that it was disappointing, just that I know all that.  One thing I have never been able to do is champion myself.  I am always worried about my kids and taken care of them instead of myself or it is so ingrained in my psyche that it is almost impossible to erase all the negative input which has attached itself to me.  I can look back and see all the bad choices I have made based on the lies that have been ingrained deep within me.  I never felt worthy of some really nice guy.  I always choose men with problems.  I don't feel worthy to be skinny.  Everytime I do well all day long on a diet, I end up binging right before bed.  Almost, like, OK, I'm a big loser so I better eat a lot right now to prove what a loser I am!!

I just cannot see me being able to work with my mom.  It's like asking someone that was violently raped to work day in and day out with their rapist~

[pennyplant]

So, then maybe if you got away from your mother, you still might not think Kelly was worthy and other things would keep going wrong?

That's kind of the thing I have to work on, too.  I still need to believe that PP is worth as much as everybody else.  It's going to take a long time.  Meanwhile, exposure to Ns who know how to exploit that part of us--well, that just keeps your self-worth at zero.  Yeah, it would be a very good thing to get away from Nmom.  It would give you a leg up on the problem.  A fighting chance!!!

I find it to be a very complicated thing, to be working on setting myself free of the Ns and, at the same time, also trying to set myself free from my ingrained ways of de-valuing myself.

Do you think you will go to this counselor again?

PP

[Plucky]

Hi Kelly,
I don't think the counseling session was a failure at all.  Yes, you were told something you already know - that is not really the issue is it?  The issue is, what and how to you do to change the situation.  You also received validation for what you think about your mother.  The validation for your knowledge and opinion is valuable.  If s/he had told you something completely different, would you have believed it, since it would not coincide with your intimate knowledge of the situation?

Now, one single goal is in the forefront of your mind.    You are focused on this one thing, that is a key thing.  If you are able to do this, you wll have made great progress.   This is good.

You also have a flesh and blood person as support now.  It sounds like you have had some insights about the way you treat yourself.

And, I think you do actually try to control your mother.  You try to limit her negative influence on yourself and others.  You try to minimise her bad acts in the business.  So far, it has not worked,  and perhaps it never will.

I think you are making progress and I am happy about that!

Just my untutored opinion, for what it's worth.
Plucky

[gratitude28]

Kelly,
The therapist did bring out the most important thing:

YOU ARE TRYING TO CONTROL YOUR MOTHER.

It's true. You are trying to control things that are beyond your control. And you can't do it. And I think the reason you might be doing it is because IT IS WHAT YOU ARE USED TO.

I think he said a lot that is valid... and it's a big horse-pill to swallow.

You need to appease the child (kill the negative tapes that you allow to continue running). You need to set boundaries (you aren't doing that, you are looking for the situation to be a certain way, and it won't be. You can't write the whole script). You need to forget about ever having your mom change (she won't).

I still vote for a go at AlAnon. These are the skills we learn... The therapist can show you where you need to explore, but the step program shows you HOW.

Love and hugs,
Beth

[Overcomer]

It IS true!!  I am trying to get my mother to do things my way.  And how stupid of me.  She has NEVER done things my way, why do I think it is going to change now?  Ludacris....

Anyway, a really weird thing just happened.  I have decided to go to Al-Anon.  My church offers it so I am going to go.  I got home from work today and couldn't find my husband.  Well, he was sitting in his shed drinking and smoking.  Drunk.  So I told him I was going to Al-Anon.  Well, he said it was over and he was going to leave me.  So I have been hanging out with my kids because I know he won't do anything in front of them.  In fact, he said "Well, what do you want to do?"  and I said, "Talk to you when you are sober."  I said it in front of my 15 year old.  For five years I have been hiding the fact that he is a drunk.  Now I have decided to stay with my kids and expose his drinking.  He may leave but I am on my way to heal poor baby Kelly.  No more second best for me!!  I am woman hear me roar.  I am taking care of ME!!  For once.  No more stupid, fat, ugly Kelly.  Here comes empowered, skinny, beautiful, confident Kelly!!  Kelly, you are an awesome little girl and I am going to help you go through your childhood and adolescence and young adulthood with a good self worth.  You love yourself because you are a good girl.  You have what it takes!!  You don't deserve second best!!  You deserve the best!!  You ARE worth it!!  You are awesome!!

Now either your husband "gets it" or he doesn't................it's up to him, not you!!!

[Plucky]

Hi Kelly,
This is a big event, no matter how much you kind of saw it coming and think it is right.    I'm so glad you have a T to help you through it.  (and us!)
I'm glad to see your burst of energy (probably fueled by anger, and rightfully so).    It will help you push through the initial hard parts.
You can expect a letdown at some point, when your anger has done its work and starts to subside.  This is ok and just a normal stage to the next level.
I think it is good that you let your teenager see the reality of what your H has become, or rather see that you see reality, since children always see reality on some level anyway. 
What's all this about size anyway?  Goodbye to the false image of stupid Kelly.  Hello to the reality of smart beautiful confident Kelly.  Hello there!
What are you going to say when you talk with your H?
Plucky