Excessive Idealism

[Stormchild]

Thanks Hops... I get it, now.

One thought did come to me, while I was reading your reply to jac.

What do you suppose would happen if... you treated your daughter the same way you've treated this woman? In terms of not playing 'the game', and at the same time - giving up any need to shame or correct her or make her feel accountable?

I was wondering this because you mentioned thinking about sending Hope's list to your D - it seems to me that your colleague and the Njerk boss are the ones who need it much, much more. But of course you can't send it to them; that's bridgeburning, and I understand that.

Funny, though, how we never think of bridges as existing between ourselves and the members of our own families. Yet they do. So I was just wondering.... what if...???????

Jac - - Hope - ! [And Laura: ]

GS.... I have been where you are. Stay stubborn.... you will win through, if you stay stubborn... people don't realize that's will power, but it is, and sometimes it's the strongest kind. And we were given it for a reason.

I'm tired, not sure I'm making a lot of sense, gonna turn in early. Love you all. Love the ability to be myself here, tired, rambly, contrapositive, and all.

PS: jac: even better than the Nuremberg trials as a shining example of accountability, confession, atonement, forgiveness: the Truth Commission in South Africa, which investigated the crimes of apartheid - chaired by Archbishop Desmond Tutu... during the administration of President Nelson Mandela!!!

[Hopalong]

NIght, Stormy.
You're absolutely right about taking the same no-games stance with my D...and we're going to have a week vacation together, a house to ourselves out of town, soon. Chance to test out my new resolve.

R's death has had a big impact on me and it'll be a while before I understand it all. But I know some things, like controlling others, are a lot less interesting to me now. Her life inspired me.

Sleep tight,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Jac. No offense taken whatsoever...
but you're right, you did detect some defensiveness.

That environment has been so hard to survive in, emotionally, (it's the coldest place I've ever worked...I've been there almost two years and noone except my one --N!-- friend there, who's now moved away, has ever so much as bought me a cup of coffee) -- that for me, just to be calm with this woman when she knew (and she knew I knew she knew) she was in the wrong, felt like I was beating on my own chest with a Tarzan yell!

I am confrontation-averse, though, you've definitely got my number. Do you know once in 7th grade a girl intentionally mocked me when all 40 kids in the class were gathered in the hall...then she slapped me across the face -- and I actually offered her the other cheek?

I did take my Sunday School lessons so to heart. It's been a very long struggle to try to find out how to keep the Golden Rule but stick up for myself at the same time. I think that's what you've perceived.

Hops

[Stormchild]

I was bullied too, in school. I've been bullied at work, as well. I've noticed something interesting: if you don't set boundaries with bullies, they stomp all over you. If you do set boundaries with them, they may try to stomp all over you in retaliation, and they may or may not be allowed to succeed [if the overall environment is abusive, then bullies are rewarded].

So what is the difference?

The difference is that in the second instance, you might be able to stop it. And you treat yourself as someone worth standing up for. Even if it costs you. Because if it's going to cost you either way, then, at least, the second way, you haven't colluded with your own abusers.

Hops: one of the things they tend to gloss in Sunday school is that He only stood and let them take Him at the end. Before that, He left; eluded them in the crowd; once even raged, in the temple. There is a time to turn the other cheek. Gandhi did it. King did it. Mandela did it. And there is a time not to turn the other cheek. Gandhi, King, Mandela likewise. The trick isn't just knowing when to and when not to - the trick is being able to figure it out on the ground, in the moment.

That is also a form of enlightenment.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Pennyplant,

  It's taking me alot longer to sift through this than I expected. Often when I post items like this, it's because I hear those same bells ringing, but I'm not sure from which direction the sound is coming. Sometimes the responses made on the thread will clarify that. In this instance, I've only come up with more questions, so it's all pretty much clear as mud.

   My parents raised me with these beliefs also. In my case, it was all tied in with "religion" and "character" and "honor" and the whole bag of "old fashioned values". I still think they're good beliefs. What makes them irrational, I guess, is when they're overemphasized within an individual personality to the point that nothing and no one ever measures up.

  You said:   Even though I never really thought of myself as idealistic, I have experienced pretty much all of the negative effects of being overly-idealistic as they are listed here.  It truly explains so much of the frustration of being me.  Especially as a child.  I always thought my parents knew better, afterall

   Me, too. And to me, frustration is the key sign that these ideals are not serving their intended purpose. My parents were not "real" to me. More like icons. The disillusionment they inspired took alot of years and determined effort to shake off. They don't know any better. They're just like me. I'm not a failure because I couldn't/wouldn't wear their mask and pretend to know better, be better.

   I believe that purging out the irrational thinking which leads to the extremism of these ideals is what frees us to see our selves for who we truly are, without that mask. For me, that means viewing myself as an empty-handed, needy child of God. There is no shame in that for me.
My parents' way brought nothing but shame.

   Pennyplant, I think this is so good and wonderful: 
it doesn't really seem unknown so much as something that just hasn't happened yet. 

To me also it is this way. And Autumn is my favorite season, as well It is so... refreshing!

It makes all the difference in the world to me ... just knowing that you and others are finding some usefulness in these posts.
At this point in my life I feel very blessed to have the time and inclination to research and read and share. There is alot more to this picture, I see, and I think the doorway out of irrational thought patterns is about to get even a bit wider!

I hope you'll have a restful, refreshing weekend, Pennyplant.

Love,
Hope

[Certain Hope]

Hi Pennyplant,

  Just thinking of you and wondering how you're doing.

  I'm considering reviewing the list of irrational thinking behind this form of extreme idealism with my husband and wondered whether you've shared with yours any of the thoughts that have come out of this discussion. In my marriage, I think this explains alot of what I'd previously viewed as values-differences between my husband and me. Now I'm seeing more and more that we truly do share more similar values than I'd thought, it's just that our expectations (of each other as well as others) vary. I really think alot of thesedifferences are based in the unreasonable ideals that I've carried for a lifetime. Unreasonable in that, as Jac said, these set up an impossible standard for everyone whose impacted by their unwritten presence. What do you think?

Have a wonderful Labor Day!

Love,
Hope

[pennyplant]

That environment has been so hard to survive in, emotionally, (it's the coldest place I've ever worked...I've been there almost two years and noone except my one --N!-- friend there, who's now moved away, has ever so much as bought me a cup of coffee) -- that for me, just to be calm with this woman when she knew (and she knew I knew she knew) she was in the wrong, felt like I was beating on my own chest with a Tarzan yell!

I'm very proud of you, Hops, for handling the situation in a way that left you feeling so good about yourself.  I'm very glad it was a way that left "this woman" to know she was wrong and to know that you knew and still had such dignity about yourself.  Meant to say this a couple of days ago, but have been pretty tired this week.

I am confrontation-averse, though, you've definitely got my number. Do you know once in 7th grade a girl intentionally mocked me when all 40 kids in the class were gathered in the hall...then she slapped me across the face -- and I actually offered her the other cheek?

I did take my Sunday School lessons so to heart. It's been a very long struggle to try to find out how to keep the Golden Rule but stick up for myself at the same time. I think that's what you've perceived.

Oh, Hopsy, I have been that little girl many times.  In looking back, I believe there were no right responses to being treated so cruelly.  We were given no tools to prevent "target-itis" and prevention is really the only solution.  While it is probably true that few children escape being teased or otherwise embarrassed in front of peers, some of us drew special abuse to ourselves.  For me, it stopped when I finally found the right adult who said the right thing to the perpetrators.  Plus, I guess some of them just got bored with it or found other far more exciting pastimes such as drinking, drugs and hanging out in the park at night.

The thing is, you have principles.  So many do not.  It's never easy.

PP

[pennyplant]

This process of feelings are like waves of love ,acceptance and courage in the face of so much pain .
What has given me the understanding of the process of healing is I have been doing it all my life never ending healing
and then the understanding of the experience that has brought sadness and then whatever propels me into healing.
I am not as afraid of the pain as I once was and accept life as it comes and I find myself just glad to be.

Moon, this weekend my husband and I went to see "Quinceanera".  By the end of the movie I was thinking of what you said here about waves of love, acceptance and courage in the face of so much pain.  To me that was the main theme of the movie.  Tio Tomas is my favorite character in the movie and he embodies this idea.  If you get a chance to see it, I think you will see what I mean.

Pennyplant

[Gaining Strength]

Just weighting in on the "Turn the other cheek" concept, Hops. 

Just one perspective - not THE perspective -  Having wrestled with "turn the other cheek" especially when feeling abused or viciously attacked, I finally made sense of it as "turn the other cheek" when you are whole, in control able to forgive.  Christ certainly did not mean this as a way to allow someone to commit a heinous crime.  But I understand it in the framework of, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."  He said tis when he was in controll (not of his life but) of his spiritual being.  As a child, I was not in control, was not capable of being in control of my spiritual, emotional, physical development.  But now as I overcome some of the scars of abuse I am gaining control for thee first time.  Only now am I capable of turning the other cheek in SOME instances. 

The golden rule is even more complex.  Doing unto others it seems should be done not as the other prefers (e.g. drugs, alcohol) for as is best for them.  But then who am I to know if what they want is really best.  You can see where I'm going with this.  It seems so clear on the surface but as I analyze it it becomes a tangled web unless I step back and treat another with kindness and caring.

Just talking my way out of darkness.  No need to pay much attention.  I am loving this space.  Loving a place to connect.  Loving a community after too many years of being so alone and so lonely.  Thanks for listening. 

Gaining Strength

[pennyplant]

I'm considering reviewing the list of irrational thinking behind this form of extreme idealism with my husband and wondered whether you've shared with yours any of the thoughts that have come out of this discussion. In my marriage, I think this explains alot of what I'd previously viewed as values-differences between my husband and me. Now I'm seeing more and more that we truly do share more similar values than I'd thought, it's just that our expectations (of each other as well as others) vary. I really think alot of thesedifferences are based in the unreasonable ideals that I've carried for a lifetime. Unreasonable in that, as Jac said, these set up an impossible standard for everyone whose impacted by their unwritten presence. What do you think?

Sometimes I'm just amazed that my husband and I have been able to stay together and actually be supportive of each other because he comes from an even more emotionally disabling background than I do.  He received some good things that I did not, and I received some good things that he did not.  But even so, you would think each of us would be so needy that we wouldn't be able to give to the other very well.  But we've lasted all this time (since 1978, when we met just before out senior year of high school) and are now helping each other with the journey.

He sees me on-line every day and knows for sure that it is helping me.  Mostly I tell him about some of the personalities here.  And how I'm changing inside.  I share with him my 3D life stories, too.  The ones that brought me here in the first place.  That has been hard for him to listen to since it involved another man.  But he did it.

Now he is starting to feel safe to start removing some of the layers he has built over his own feelings all his life.  He reminds me often just how hard this is for him to do.  But he is doing it.

His style is quite different from mine.  He doesn't like reading all that much except for sports and technical things.  But he has picked up some of the things I do and have learned here.  Like paying attention to dreams and journaling once in awhile.  We will talk about general things that each of our families did and do.

I think that his family also had some excessive idealism in the mix.  But there is also some very rough stuff in the background.  Extreme poverty at times, child abandonment, one murder-suicide, severe alcoholism and child abuse.  I often tell him, your parents performed a miracle in just not perpetuating all of the horrible stuff from their past.  I tend to think each generation has a limit to how far they can progress when given so little to begin with.  His brothers and sisters have all managed to grow up and have families of their own and find their way in the world to varying degrees.  Some of them have more troubles than others.  But in comparing these lives to what we know of the grandparents and great-parents, it is fairly impressive to me that any of them did well at all.  They certainly weren't given all the tools they needed.

For me, I tend to think that the excessive idealism was, in my case, extremely naive.  My parents were pretty clueless about most things.  Very young, too.  I do think these ideals are "sold" to us culturally.  And how would fairly naive and sheltered people learn any differently?  That's partly how I see my parents and my upbringing.  I think they were also very frustrated that our lives didn't pan out in the promised ways.  And when they tried to get help with my difficult sister, the only thing that really happened was they were blamed, especially my mother.

You're right, this topic does uncover a lot of stuff.  It does get murky!  But it's good to look at it.  Nothing is ever easy, is it?

Pennyplant

[Hopalong]

Jac, Penny, Stormy, Gaining Strength:

Thank you so much. It is so comforting to find ready compassion and empathy for those tough childhood times, as an adult. That nail-biting little girl who kept trying to please thanks you. I especially appreciate your taking a close look at "turn the other cheek" and The Golden Rule. It's good to know they can be complex questions for others too.

The lingering legacy of those years of being tormented on the playground is probably very simple. Now and then with certain adults, usually a female, I see the same cruelty flashing. On occasion, someone will label me Outcast or Not Worthy, and act it out with symbolic back-turning. When we were children, it could have been verbal slashing or labeling or name-calling, cutting me down to size, or leaving me out of all play. I wonderfully friendly connections with most adults in my life now, but every now and then, someone will appear to sense that same old role I had back then (and probably accurately) -- my yearning to be included. And "disincluding" me is their way of experiencing power.

I've occasionally encountered other women, often bright competent and very verbal ones, who will react negatively to me. I think it may come out of competitive feelings. I may be feeding that negative interaction in some way I'm not aware of. As with the woman at work, who has a need to be the most in charge and most knowledgeable...I had always treated her with respect and sympathy. But I believe she felt a desire to put me down that actually had nothing to do with me. Perhaps her mother...

Once I see it, I can eventually let it go. With her, it's really not painful. I can do that more easily because shortly I have to have any ongoing contact with her.

Thanks again,

Hops and Little-Hops

[Certain Hope]

Hi Pennyplant,

He sees me on-line every day and knows for sure that it is helping me.  Mostly I tell him about some of the personalities here.  And how I'm changing inside.  I share with him my 3D life stories, too.

  Thank you for telling me this. I do the same with my husband and it's amazing how this opens up new doorways of communication.
I was wondering whether you do this also, because I see it as such a positive force toward staying in step with each other's grow within marriage. Your husband sounds like a courageous man to me, and a very determined one. I think mine has these qualities, as well and I'm very thankful.

I tend to think each generation has a limit to how far they can progress when given so little to begin with.
I think I disagree with this...it seems to me that many of our limitations are self-imposed and founded on unrealistic fear, in the same way that irrational thoughts can lead to the pursuit of unreasonable ideals. I am quite convinced that an entirely new beginning is possible for those who are willing to forgive and release all blame.

Much like your mother received blame when seeking help for your sister, I can see that there's a very real risk for those who have been victims of abuse to settle for less than total restoration when the blame and shame game becomes all too familiar and cozy. It helps me alot to put things into balance when I remember that I myself was not an angelic, holy child, nor have I been a faultless, ever-wise parent. I have both sympathy and empathy for my parents and for myself, but I am more than ready to grow up and leave the shame and blame behind.

Love,
Hope