"Nobody else ever wanted me" old tape

[pennyplant]

Hi PP,
just a quickie here, no, not THAT kind of quickie!  Get your mind out of the gutter!....
Let's reframe this.
1.  " Nobody wanted to use me".  Because let's face it. That's what it frequently is.  Scratching the itch.
2.  Any 11 year old who has lots of boyfriends - what does that mean?  If I had a D and she was 11 and she had 'lots of bf' I would sure make sure what exactly that meant!  In the kindergarten sense, or in the Taxi Driver sense?
3.  Even Pinnochio learnt to say no when he became real.   You must have been real from the getgo.

    This quickie, that quickie, they're all good!

Nobody wanted to use me.  But part of me wanted just that!  Young me?  Stunted teenagerish me?  I know someone who always wanted to lead the police on a huge chase through all three local counties and the Indian Reservation.  When his son grew up to do just that, he sounded so wistful and admiring.  Envious even.  Now, personally, I thought it was a stupid idea.  And smarter, more experienced people here know that my wished-for fling is a stupid idea.  I guess that's what makes life so interesting.

Anyway, when you changed that one word from "wanted" to "use" it startled me a bit.  It really is that simple.  I just kind of got lost in my long, mixed-up fantasy.  In fact, when I ran into the N-co-worker today, and saw for myself that he is pretty well "over me" I remembered your post.  As time goes on, well, I can see that I was probably spared getting used big time.  It will just take some time to sink in before I can feel a sense of relief about it.  I don't feel relieved yet.  Probably going to have to feel betrayed and angry first.  Yuck.

My mother's boyfriends.  Probably in the kindergarten sense.  But really major in her mind.  Probably what she would consider her major accomplishment in life.  Especially compared to, say, being the mother of two daughters who grew up to be contributing members of society and gave her three grandsons.

I must have been real from the getgo.  I like that, Plucky.  Thank you.  That will be part of the new tape.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I must get to bed.  Have an early day tomorrow.  But will keep thinking about this thread and should have more thoughts to share sometime on Friday.

Good night all.

Love, Pennyplant

[gratitude28]

Sorry Hops...
I think gratuitous sex is gratuitous sex, be in in the sixties or today. I just don't believe the Jim Morrison types were all about "love." They were just as much about "getting some."
Love (platonic type), Beth

[Hopalong]

No offense taken, Beth. I just know that for me, those wild few years were in some way a defense of a piece of my soul that had been hurt. I brought presentness, tenderness, to every encounter. And there was joy in it. Not always, but I did not feel bad, shameful, or ...  Well, I have long since abandoned the abandon. I've had longer periods of celibacy for the last decades than anything else, and have no further interest in those sorts of encounters. It was a crazy time, the early 70s...maybe it was a reaction to the war.

Not easy to say something contrary, that unfettered sexual freedom was good for me at that time in my life. But it was.

(I certainly don't advise it to young women today. It was particular to the times, my life in the times, etc.)

I just want a nice middle-aged Irishman I can dote on for the rest of his life.

Hops

[Portia]

Hi PP

I’ll comment if I may

some sexual aspect to being a redhead.

It’s different and difference can be attractive. Biologically, men are built to mate with as many different types as possible. That’s maybe a reason they can like their women to ‘dress up’ in different disguises…so they get the impression they’re getting something new. So I’ve been led to believe.

Unfortunately we’re still primitive animals in some ways: taller, more physically attractive people enjoy more ‘success’ than shorter, unattractive people. It’s simple biology and sometimes we don’t see past that.

I know someone who always wanted to lead the police on a huge chase through all three local counties and the Indian Reservation.  When his son grew up to do just that, he sounded so wistful and admiring.  Envious even.  Now, personally, I thought it was a stupid idea.

Why did you think it was a stupid idea? Is there some part of you, buried deep so that maybe you can’t see it, that thinks it was an excellent idea? Maybe it’s not about sexual flings: maybe it’s about a full life, experiences and adventure. When did you last do something that made you scared thinking about it? Rock-climbing, white-water rafting, hanging on to a galloping horse?


Hops!

just want a nice middle-aged Irishman I can dote on for the rest of his life.

This sounds like a realistic and achievable goal to me. How would you go about making it happen? 

(i wish I had a goal, let alone a realistic and achievable one )

[pennyplant]

men notice me now.  And I'm not so different from the way I always looked and acted. 

I think we give off subtle signals though- if we're really feeling unworthy then other people pick up on if not that exactly the fact we have some unresolved emotion which is holding us back.

I don't think it's a bad thing you haven't had tons of failed relationships though!
Because that's what they would have been, if you weren't ready.

Yes, I believe I did and often still do give off a signal of some sort.  It's a mixture of things going on--preoccupation with my thoughts, nervous busy-ness, trying to be good and useful, lack of confidence about what to say, but basically all coming from that lack of worthyness.  I can feel that starting to slip away.  And people may be noticing that too.  Either I'm becoming more comfortable in my skin and that makes it all easier, or my new comfort level is giving off a more welcoming signal.

I have thought a lot about what kind of signal I was giving that allowed the N-co-worker to know he could cross some major boundaries with me and get away with it, even get rewarded for it, and then when he got in over his head (which happened pretty quickly) that it would then be okay to treat me like some kind of pest instead of a person he had approached and wooed for awhile.

At the time that it began, two years ago, my father was dying of lung cancer.  I had been spending major amounts of time and energy and worry helping him maintain his "independence" for many, many months before he finally went to the hospital and then died three weeks later.  I was feeling incredible amounts of stress, pressure and worry.  That can't be a coincidence.  I was distracted and needy and already a big flirt.  Also, still reeling from the previous emotional affair.  I wasn't trying to have anything with this particular person though I had always been attracted to him.  But right around that time I did make some personal comments to him, which now I realized he soaked up as new supply.  I sure never thought he would actually be interested in me.  But it may just have been the perfect recipe for an N.  There's more to it but basically I gave off those same signals that I must have given off my entire childhood.  It just took a sexual form this time instead of the childhood form of constant teasing and hounding.

Have to cut this short, as work is calling me.  All for now.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

Funny thing about the Ugly Duckling syndrome is you don't have to be an ugly duckling to have it huh (I'm sure there's some psych term for it)

*********************************************************

We can self talk ourselves into things; we can self talk ourselves out of things; gotta have more other talk too huh

Oh, I had Ugly Duckling syndrome big time.  I looked different from my peers.  I stood out physically. Somebody always had something to say about how I looked.  So, I suppose I was born self-conscious.  When I was one year old, my mother was walking me down the street in my stroller and a newspaper photographer happened by and took my picture and it was printed in the newspaper under the caption "Cute!".  I notice redheads myself and I ought to know better.  People used to make comments about me from their cars driving by.  Some good, some nasty.  Grown men would comment on my looks or the way I walked.  Way too much of that kind of attention for a little girl, I would say.

School days.  I became even more self-conscious.  Always someone around to say something critical or mean.  The least little thing would be noticed and commented on.  I think I must have been just surrounded by little Ns.  So, when people here say, you know people aren't really paying as much attention to you as you think..... well, that has not been my experience of life.  Not in my home town, school days, or old neighborhood anyway.  Just a pit of Narcissism?  More and more it sure seems like it to me.

Yeah, I agree whole-heartedly that we can talk ourselves into or out of anything.  Those tapes are powerful and new thoughts are potentially powerful as well.  Finally learned that lesson here.  Have learned it in a way that I can use.

2bb, this is an interesting direction to go in.  There are some commonalities in your story with mine.  Yet, you don't seem to have suffered from that unworthyness.  That is so interesting to me.  I must have mistakenly chosen that path.  Sometimes I wish I could go back in time and shake little Pennyplant.  Wake her up.  But she probably would have been very offended and not understood.  So, I guess this is how long it had to take.

Okay, supper time.

Be back soon.

PP

[pennyplant]

Now I KNOW you are my sister...


You know, I have dreams lately that I am alone and it has been years and no man likes or loves or wants me and there is no hope of it ever happening.
I also tried to get boys to like me while young (I wasn't successful until later). I think I scared them all away with my wanting so badly to be wanted.


And Plucky is right about boys using you. But I wanted to be used. I wanted for ANYONE to want me. PLEASE??????

You know what would have been really cool, Beth?  If all the girls who suffered with this while young could have met and been friends with each other, like a "Stand by Me" kind of thing.  One of the worst things about being unworthy and unwanted was truly believing that I was the only one in this position.  That just rubbed it in even more as I watched girl after girl, classmate after classmate, begin to figure it out and pair off or get a couple of dates once in awhile.  Some girls only had to make it known they were interested in someone and he came calling almost immediately.  I needed a support group back then!  Thinking I was the only one just reinforced my wrong ideas about my unworthiness.  But in reality, kids who are bad off also don't know how to reach out and pull in the support.  It's a vicious cycle.

I think if I had been used as a young girl, I would have been devastated.  Back then I wasn't thinking about sex so much as just having someone like me.  My wanting to be used was a recent developement  .  I am a pretty late bloomer in many respects.  But I definitely wanted what I wanted in the last few years.  I'm only starting to get past it now because there really isn't any other option.  This aspect of my healing is in spite of myself.  It's really hard to give up this particular desire.  I mean, if I'd actually found someone who was somewhat normal and had also just wanted to go for it like I wanted to, then there would have been a fling.  By working on giving up on this idea, I'm not really being very noble at this point.  More being realistic.  The one I decided to do this with is N.  It is more fun for him to frustrate me and move on to another female he can fantasize about.  Wasn't fun for me, but who cares, right?

All of this is related to things the others have been saying, too.  I'll post more tomorrow in response to others.  This is definitely starting to come together in some ways.  Very, very helpful and thanks for all these ideas.   I hope others are touching on things that are meaningful to them as well.

Pennyplant

[Gaining Strength]

I have a friend who has had a truly wretched life.  She is compulsivelye clean.  When you walk in her house, you remove your shoes and still she practically cleans behind every step.  I am her antithesis.  I would give ANYTHING to have her compulsion and she would give anything to not have it.  Basically, I don't like who I am and she doesn't like who she is.

When I read your post and I think how I wish I had had your problem and you are describing how you wish you had mine and others here.  But really I don't think any of us would like each others problems any more than we like our own.  Ultimately I think we all are trying and coming to like ourselves.  That's the goal it seems to me.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((pennyplant)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[pennyplant]

Seems like part of the issue is comparing yourself to others?

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Most people, it seems, have a past.

Those that tell you about it have, but I imagine there are many who don’t talk about it….because they haven’t got a ‘past’. Those that do talk about it, do you think they’re happy about it? 

Yes, Portia, I compare myself to others all the time.  Doing so has always been as natural to me as breathing.  So, it's going to take some hard work to redirect that energy towards, maybe some self-discovery and self-boostering.  Comparing myself all the time, well, I don't measure up all the time either.  That's no good.  Absorbed that idea from my parents, of course.

Some of the people who talk about their "past" with me--they seem proud of it and sorry that it is over.  Maybe I just happen to know some really adventurous people.  But they truly consider their past a part of who they are and how they became the kind of person they are now.  And there doesn't seem to be an air of regret about it.  It's more like Hopsy said in another post on this thread.  They did something that met a need at the time and some sharing occurred.  Those were real relationships that meant something.  One person I know, that's how she got her third son.  And he is the apple of her eye.  He is bright, talented, kind, thoughtful, everything one could hope for in a child.  If his mom hadn't led that free life that she led for a few years, he wouldn't exist.  I know for a fact, she wouldn't take back one moment of it.  Another friend of mine considers every affair, relationship, meeting to be something meaningful and that she learned and grew from.  Some of them hurt her feelings a lot, but she still wouldn't take back any of it.  And now she has finally met the man who might be the right one for her.  Maybe she wouldn't have realized how right he is if not for the past.

I just don't think it is always a bad thing to take that chance.  In my case, I got involved with an N, so it was doomed from the first moment.  But I sure have got myself on a good path as a result.  I expect that in another year or two I will look back on it with some kind of gratitude.  Even though it hurt so much and so many times.

I also know women who are unhappy with their past.  Some have said wistfully that they admire my life where I have only been with one man.  How can I explain to them what I feel the drawbacks to it are?  It would just sound like whining and ingratitude.  It is true that some people want what I have and I want what they have.  Maybe that's just the way it is.  I'm just muddling my way through it.  For awhile, it just seemed like I could change my life and have something I wanted.  Then it turned out I couldn't.  Maybe I wanted the wrong thing.  But it felt good for awhile to think I could have what I wanted.  Never happened before.  It felt real good.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

When I was 17, I was so desperate for a boy to want me, that I hooked up with a guy who date-raped me one night when I was drunk (I was a virgin at the time), would sometimes burn me with cigarettes, claiming it was an accident and a myriad of other abusive behaviors--but I stayed with him, until he got bored with me and moved on to his next victim.  Having a past, can be a very painful thing.

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My daughter is 18, intelligent, very beautiful and has a perfect body.  She has never had a boyfriend, and as far as I know, has never even been kissed romantically.  She has a number of boy friends, but has never dated any one boy.  I actually consider her quite lucky to have gotten through high school without having any romances.  Now that she is in college, I'm sure that will change, but I also think she is more ready for it and has the maturity to make good decisions.  I hope I have given her the security of love necessary to keep her from feeling the desperation of being loved by a man.  Unfortunately, her father has not given her that same love and attention during the most important part of her developing into a woman, so I do worry at some level.

Hi Brigid,

I am very sorry that you suffered so much from your relationship with that boyfriend who hurt you in so many ways.  Nobody deserves that kind of treatment.

When I talk in general terms about not having a past, I'm not talking about getting into real danger.  It's just the feeling unwanted.  The two "emotional affairs" I attempted during the last few years were with people I thought I had made a real connection with.  It felt very real and intense to me, though I guess I have no idea how it really felt to them.  The N-co-worker, well now I know that was never going to happen.  Now I'm a little bit more educated about that particular personality type.  But I didn't know before.  I thought he really liked me.  I thought he meant what he said.  Now I know that wasn't true.   The first guy, well that just took me by surprise.  He was someone I met at work also, and he was much younger than me.  He probably didn't realize he shouldn't be so open and friendly to older women approaching their sexual peak years!  I didn't know this either!!!!  Just walked into that one blind.  Due entirely, I think, to my lack of experience.  Which is what I'm getting at.  People need these kinds of experiences in their youth.  It is a necessary part of growing up and becoming a real adult.  A complex, mature human being.  Which I did not do.  I am doing that now.  In a really awkward, backwards way.

Brigid, you mention that your daughter has never had a boyfriend or really any romance.  She must have other things that you gave her or at least allowed to develop in her.  Self-confidence, self-esteem, lots of friends, genuine interests that she can follow up on.  I had little of that.  It just wrecked me that I was so below average in all the common things that most young people could expect out of life.  Not having a boyfriend was the thing I honed in on.  But maybe if the other areas of life had worked out better, it might not have loomed so large in my view.  Your daughter amazes me.  She is going at her own pace.  I didn't even know I was allowed to go at my own pace.  I probably wasn't ready for real romances or relationships.  But I didn't know it was okay to be later than other kids.  I didn't know I could become ready for things.  I had never been allowed to just do something when I wanted or was ready.  Your daughter is really fortunate in my opinion.  And you gave that to her.  I could have used a mom like you  . That's just great that you did that for her.  She got this way even with the father she had.  She's going to be more than okay.  I know you can't help it if you still worry.  But I bet she's going to do just great.

Thanks for your comments.  It gives me so much to think about.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

Maybe it wasn't really the case that nobody else ever wanted you. Maybe the one you chose was indeed the one for you and all is just exactly as it should be? I would love to be able to say that I was still with the first man I'd ever known.

Thanks, Hope.  I think it is probably true that I just happened to find the right one right away.  That seems to be where everything I do and learn is heading.  Right back to where I began.

But if this is exactly right for me, then maybe your path was exactly right for you, even with the pain.  I honestly don't think it is an accomplishment to stay with the first person.  Well, the staying is something of an accomplishment.  Hard work just like anything worth having.  But him just happening to be the first.  Well, to me that is just chance.  If we had broke up at some point then got back together because nobody else ever worked out as well, that would just be part of our history and part of our growth.  I have told him if we ever tried something else, then I realized I had made a mistake leaving him, I would beg him to take me back.  I know how right he is for me.

Still being with the first and only man I have ever been with is just one way of doing things.  It is not something I think I should run around bragging about.  I suppose I should probably also stop thinking it means I am flawed.  It did leave some gaps in my experience of life, though.  I mean I didn't even know that some guys can be real cads!  How's that for ignorance?  And it was more than exciting to think I might have a real adventure instead of just seeing these things in movies.  Got very carried away with my feelings for awhile.

I'm ready to accept the idea that it wasn't that nobody ever wanted me.  It has taken a long time to even know to question that assumption I've made my whole life.  Lots of progress.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

It’s different and difference can be attractive. Biologically, men are built to mate with as many different types as possible. That’s maybe a reason they can like their women to ‘dress up’ in different disguises…so they get the impression they’re getting something new. So I’ve been led to believe.

Unfortunately we’re still primitive animals in some ways: taller, more physically attractive people enjoy more ‘success’ than shorter, unattractive people. It’s simple biology and sometimes we don’t see past that.

I know someone who always wanted to lead the police on a huge chase through all three local counties and the Indian Reservation.  When his son grew up to do just that, he sounded so wistful and admiring.  Envious even.  Now, personally, I thought it was a stupid idea.

Why did you think it was a stupid idea? Is there some part of you, buried deep so that maybe you can’t see it, that thinks it was an excellent idea? Maybe it’s not about sexual flings: maybe it’s about a full life, experiences and adventure. When did you last do something that made you scared thinking about it? Rock-climbing, white-water rafting, hanging on to a galloping horse?

Well, I thought different would be exciting too!!!  When my husband is in a mood to joke around about my "flings" he says, "You just need some strange, baby!"  Of course, he is really relieved that I didn't get any strange.  And we don't really joke around about it anymore.  Not really all that funny.

Why do I think leading the police on a chase through three counties and an Indian Reservation is stupid?  Well, because I know two people who did that and they both got caught and arrested and one went to jail.  I watch COPS on TV.  You always get caught when the police are chasing you.  Sometimes you even crack up your car!!  That's not something I think I have to do to know it is stupid.  That kind of excitement has never seemed exciting to me.

I think my wanting sexual flings was about doing something that feels really good.  I thought it would "complete" me.  In each case, both times, I had met someone that I wanted that kind of connection with.  I wanted to know each of them in every way.  Obviously, I missed something each time.  It wasn't possible, neither of them really wanted that with me, blah, blah, blah.  Being married is a bigger obstacle to having flings than I thought.....  Really naive, I know.  Now I know better.  Yay.

Oh boy, I keep running out of time to work on this.  But it's all helping very much.  Thanks for all the good comments.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

I would give ANYTHING to have her compulsion and she would give anything to not have it.  Basically, I don't like who I am and she doesn't like who she is.

But really I don't think any of us would like each others problems any more than we like our own.  Ultimately I think we all are trying and coming to like ourselves.  That's the goal it seems to me.

Compulsion.  When the behavior owns us instead of the other way around.  When I have wanted to be someone else, or have someone else's life, it has always been when I was depressed or felt out of control or had no idea how to proceed from where I was at.  Now my idea is to start from where I am at the moment and build on that.

During the worst moments of the second emotional affair (with the N) there were times when just seeing him or just thinking about him made me feel this very strange ill sensation.  I still don't know exactly what that was--part of my brain still craved what I craved.  Two feelings existing simultaneously.  Opposite feelings most likely.  I thought at the time that I felt that sickening feeling because I was afraid I would not be able to have what I wanted to have.  But I don't really know that.  Maybe it was a warning feeling.  It felt different from missing someone, which is also what I thought that feeling was at the time.  I did want to escape from the sensation.  It did not feel good and it was unlike any feeling I had ever had before.  I did have myself convinced that if it would just work out the way I wanted it to, then I would feel very good.  Not with an N, though.  I would like to think he has a conscience and ended it for that reason.  But probably not.  He has moved on to the next supply source.  That is what really happened.  He has a compulsion too.  And he is lost in it.

These compulsions are not the answer.  Replacing a "bad" one with a "good" one is not the answer.  You're right, GS, it is liking ourselves that is the answer.  And we can do that!!!!  We are doing that  .

Love, Pennyplant

[Certain Hope]

Dear Pennyplant,

  Re:  These compulsions are not the answer.  Replacing a "bad" one with a "good" one is not the answer.

That's a fact. As I become more aware of my tendancy to do just that, I want so much to knock it off!

About this...  there were times when just seeing him or just thinking about him made me feel this very strange ill sensation

I remember a feeling like that about being near my ex-husband. It's so difficult to comprehend, but almost like a chocoholic being presented with a gigantic fudge volcano cake, filled with hot fudge, and topped with half a gallon of ice cream....

ugh, I just know this is going to make me ill, but it's absolutely tantalizing!

Another thing about N that I haven't thought of in ages... a hug from N during the period of time when he had me exalted to the throne of glory was completely enveloping, annihilating (thinking of GS here), exhausting, and terrifying. I remember feeling ill and yet helpless to escape, as though I was being swallowed up, consumed alive, disappearing in every way into him. Truly sickening.

Hope

[Hopalong]

PP--
I can relate to being vulnerable to emotional affairs when things are intense or there's grief in your life...

Mine happened that way too.

there were times when just seeing him or just thinking about him made me feel this very strange ill sensation.  I still don't know exactly what that was--part of my brain still craved what I craved.

I think this really did, for me, fit the addiction model described in Escape from Intimacy by Anne Wilson Schaef. (Though I don't follow her all the way to her conclusion.) Anyway, I felt sick and out of control right in the midst of my obsessive desire.

In a way, I imagine it is a feeling that had my life become immersed with the N permanently, would have sickened me to death.

Hops