alcoholism vs narcissism

[SilverLining]

Welcome TJR100:  Isn't Aspergers a type of autism?  It would be a weird life to be raised by an Aspergers/Narcissist Drunk!! 

Hi Kelly.   Aspergers as I understand it is sort of a borderline autism.  My father acts like his is one "flick of the switch" away from sitting in a chair rocking and talking to himself.   He relates to other people, but not very well and usually on his own terms.  Most of my interactions with him seem to consist of me listening to him monologue about his own interests, mostly science related.   It's a deceptive disorder, because my father did, with difficulty, manage to get married and hold down a  pretty good job.  It has however, created havoc with me and all other members of my FOO.    

And yes it was (and still is) definitely weird.  I am only now starting to get some handle on it  in my 40's.      

[chris2]

both narcissists and alcoholics are very secretive.

Wow - secretive  boy that's my father to a tee.  That really hurts to read - not sure why.

What about "double binds".  One of the hallmarks and most poisonous aspect of my childhood were the doublebinds my father put us in.  - GS

Hm. Could you describe two or so double binds to me, so I can pick out the commonalities? I'm not sure what this is. I am thinking it's a way of saying "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" But what makes these events different from the random punishing narcissists dish out because they just need to vent?

Thanks...

Chris2

[Overcomer]

WOW!!  Secretive??  My Nmom is soooo secretive.  She doesn't want anyone to know our business.  She would NEVER admit to making a mistake nor would she apologize without being pushed into a corner and then the apology would go something like this, "Oh, I wasn't clear on that so I could understand why you would be angry........I'm sorry, if I had known the real reason I wouldn't have acted that way..............."

Meanwhile my husband sits in the smelly garage our in the shed to drink and smoke rather than sit on the deck and enjoy the beautiful view we have in our backyard (creek, trees, etc.....)

And I wonder if my husband has a little Aspergers......................my daughter is autistic and I have known some full blown Aspergers people - but my husband?  He gets stuck..................maybe he escapes through drinking......................

And my friend who is a raging drug addict and alcoholic - boy, yes, when she is drunk and her boyfriend doesn't jump when she snaps, you should see the hate in her eyes, the "no one treats me that way.................!!!"

I would HATE it if my nmom was an alcoholic - THAT would be SO bad.  Thankfully she is a tee totaller (to a fault)

[SilverLining]

Hm. Could you describe two or so double binds to me, so I can pick out the commonalities? I'm not sure what this is. I am thinking it's a way of saying "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" But what makes these events different from the random punishing narcissists dish out because they just need to vent?

Chris2

Here is some information on double binds.  "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" sums it up pretty well. I think some of them get fairly subtle.  A big double bind for me has been the choice between being "punished" by spending time around my N-ish father and the feeling of guilt (I was conditioned into) if I didn't go along. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind

[Overcomer]

Double Bind.  I have often called it "talking out of both sides of your mouth."  My nmom is a master at this.  When she asked me to tell my aunt that we wanted her to work weekends, I presumed that in a couple of months, she would come back and ask me why I was so mean to my aunt to make her work weekends.  She had me write a memo to the employees telling them that the bookkeeper would be the "go to" person and was now considered assistant manager.  A year and a half later she told me she resented me for trying to elevate the bookkeeper above being a bookkeeper - then when I found the memo on the computer and printed a copy out for her, she told me she never remembered that memo.................

Everything that comes out of her mouth should be written down and signed - that way when she "forgets" later on, you can refresh her memory by producing the signed copy..................

Double bind??  That's crazy!

[Overcomer]

Al-anon in a few minutes.  Guess what?  Alcoholic husband went two weeks without drinking.  We were talking about "dry drunks" earlier in the thread.  I think my h was being a dry drunk yesterday.  He was testy.  Angry.  Complaining.  Then he started drinking and got drunk.  He had promised me that he would always eat before he drank.......................well, it didn't happen.  Then the funniest thing happened.  His younger sister called from Arizona this morning at about 11:00 am.........she was clearly drunk off her butt.  So he got all upset and wasn't going to call her but then he did.  He was going on and on and on about it.  And I said, "You see, that is exactly how I feel when you drink......................."  Why do you suppose that both he AND his younger sister are drunks?????  And he points the finger at her because she can't keep a job and he does.................it's all alcohol abuse whether you can keep a job or not, right??

[SilverLining]

And he points the finger at her because she can't keep a job and he does.................it's all alcohol abuse whether you can keep a job or not, right??

I remember this issue coming up in the Thorburn books.  Most alcoholics are able to hold down jobs.  So it isn't a valid test of whether they are alcoholic or not.  They will, however, use it as an excuse:  "I'm still working so I must be in control of my drinking".   It can take years for employers to finally get fed up enough to boot the problem employee out the door. 

[Stormchild]

Actually, in one of my earliest workplaces, it became very clear to me that alcoholics did very well within the company. The tendency to lie, spin, shift blame, evade responsibility, change the story every five seconds, etc. that is characteristic of alcohol abusers whose disease is active - is also the exact set of traits that is preferred by really unscrupulous companies, whether they are playing their employees off against one another, or are cheating the customers or lying to the regulatory authorities [if they're a regulated industry].

I was amazed. Flabbergasted. Completely blown out of the water. When I realized that virtually the entire set of middle and upper management in this place were either problem drinkers, or dry drunks - and the ones who weren't abusing alcohol had other problems, such as serial adultery, which I guess = sex addiction.

Really dishonest corporations love un-recovering addicts, and they love un-recovering enablers too. But they promote the addicts. They use the enablers to do the work the addicts aren't doing... chew 'em up, and spit 'em out, just the way the addicts themselves will do.

Edit in: in the interest of balance - the folks who did worst in this place and some others like it tended to be [1] genuinely recovering alcoholics who were well aware of the BS, smoke and mirrors of the disease, and committed to rejecting it; [2] similarly recovering enablers; [3] people who were lucky enough to be healthy from the get-go. Folks in category [3] usually didn't stay long; at the first whiff of crazymaking, they'd find another place to work. The ones in categories [1] and [2] usually ended up scapegoated one way or another.

[Gaining Strength]

Chris2-

I sort of missed this thread for a few days somehow.  Sorry for the slow reply.

Hm. Could you describe two or so double binds to me, so I can pick out the commonalities? I'm not sure what this is. I am thinking it's a way of saying "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" But what makes these events different from the random punishing narcissists dish out because they just need to vent?

I've given this example before but my brother actually told this again Monday after my aunts funeral.
One summer night, when we were children my father took my brothers and a guest and me to buy some icecream. My brother's guest (son of a friend of my father)wanted peach so my brother backed him up.  My NPD father had black and white rules about everything including food and peach icecream was only permitted if it was homemade.  So my father bought peach icecream for them and something else for himself.  When it was served up, my brother's guest didn't like it.  As a consequence, my brother had to eat peach icecream for every meal until it was finished.

The double bind is being caught between conflicting policies.  "Honor guests preferences." and "Follow all of your father's preferences."  or as you succenctly phrased it, "Damned if you do and damned if you don't."  Or, in our household - you will be punished and humiliated no matter what you do.  No wonder I am working through paralysis and anxiety!

The difference between this and just needing to vent is the effect on the victim.  When an N just vents - it is a little easier to recognize that the venting belongs to the N but a double bind has the cruel feature of blaming and shaming the victim and for me the real disadvantage was that I took that blame and shame on - my brother took on very little but he has unfortunately developed very strong N traits.  That's something of the difference between a sensitive soul  and a matter of fact - water of the back guy.  I saw my Ntraitish mother as just venting and just counted my days until I went to college but I wasn't so clear about my double binding father. - GS

[penelope]

I had only recently really researched alcoholism and its stages, as my therapist gave me a book about it - I discovered I did not really know what it was before reading this book.  Most of the people I knew who were drinkers (even if they drank Every weekend), could probably only be classified as Abusers of Alcohol, as someone pointed out here.

The interesting thing was, recognizing my ex b/f in the description of a person in the advanced stages of the disease.  I don't remember all the details, but here's what a Full Blown alcoholic will do (and my b/f who is a family practice doctor, and a good one at that, was managing to hide this from his office):  Hide alcohol.  Stock up (I'd find cases of wine in the garage, cause "it was on sale").  Sneak drinks.  Drink in the mornings (one or two beers on the way to work, to take the edge off).  People who've been abusing alcohol for a very long time will often develop an intolerance to it, so I'd find he'd be drunk after only drinking 2 or 3 glasses of wine, sometimes (either that, or he was mixing it with pills).  He drank while on call and passed out, despite his pager going off all night.  Lied about why he didn't answer his pager, I imagine (I didn't get any pages said angrily, I'm sure - then he'd walk off - like, this conversation is over).  Stopped on the way home from work everyday to get two bottles of wine.  Budgeted for alcohol.  Spent money like crazy while drunk, and was in Huge debt.  Lived beyond his means.  Would act mad or get mad at me about something proactively, before going to the store for alcohol - so that I wouldn't complain.  Anytime I complained, point the finger at me, saying I was the drunk (cause I was mean when I got drunk, whereas he was as nice as a kitten - it was true, too).

Alcoholism is very very scary to someone who truly wants intimacy (me), cause you realize you've bought into a lie and intimacy or the chance of it keeps slipping and slipping...any addiction, really, is scary I'm sure for this same reason.    For me, I liked my ex so much better when he was drinking, cause when he wasn't he was MEAN.  But when he got a few drinks and/or painkillers and/or sleeping pills and/or pot in him, he was sometimes fun and usually nice.  But when he passed out, i felt so very alone in the relationship.  Trying to talk to someone who's making about as much sense as a babbling 2 year old, day in and day out, gets old.  I got mad at him, but I also felt sorry.  But mostly I felt sorry for me. 

I can see why a N would be attracted to an alcoholic, yes.  Good point.  Cause they'd both be so wrapped up in themselves and their addiction, they'd maybe feed off one another and/or leave each other alone to get their high.

bean

[gratitude28]

Kelly,
They are probably both drunks because they both have the same physical reaction to alcohol, and they both never learned how to deal with life.
Yes, your husband had the RIDs... Restless Irritable and Discontent we call it. An empty spirit (as in things spiritual... no pun intended) gets it quickly. It sounds like he does want to change though and that could be great. Not necessarily for you, but for him. I am not saying it wouldn't be good for you, but as you know from Al Anon, he has to want it for himself. And a lot of his journey will have nothing to do with you, if he decides to head out on it. The great thing is that he has definitely learned that he can't control himself at this point. That's the hardest lesson!!!! Kelly, food or no food, any kind of rule you can think of... he will still get drunk. And he probably wants to get drunk fast.
You are doing all the right stuff with your life, Kelly!!!!! You are an inspiration to me.
Love, Beth

[Overcomer]

Beth, NO, you are an inspiration to me!!  Everytime you give me those words of affirmation I just feel more and more empowered - thank you!!!

Boy, the last few posts got me to thinking.  One - what in the world was my husband's life like???  He is such an angry man.  And his sister??  Almost 40 - can't keep a job............drugs, alcohol....the world owes her..........my husband?  RID - I like that.  Restless, Irritable and Discontent...............he was.  And that comment about being proactive?  Getting mad at first so he has a reason to storm out and then another reason to buy some beer??  Geez!  Spooky the similarities in all this................are we all living the same life???

I can't decide if he hides it so he can drink it later.  I think he goes and buys it when he wants it and then hides all the empties.  I opened up the cooler and it was chalk full of empties...................

Well, I'll just have to see.  I think he might be more of an alcohol ABUSER rather than a full fledged alcoholic.  But I told him he is going down the road that my best friend went down.  10 years ago she was just like he is, now she is a raging alcoholic...

Oh, and by the way - another subject - but I went to careerbuilder.com and applied for a job yesterday!!!

[gratitude28]

Yea!!!!!!!! What kind of job???????
Love, Beth

[penelope]

kelly,

Excellent!!!  That is the first step, get those legs moving and do something about the situation.  You don't have to stay stuck with your N Mom, if a better opportunity comes along, jump on it!

good job

bean 

[Overcomer]

OK, I just went into Careerbuilder and saw a job as a Center Director for Sylvan Learning Centers................you know, when people come in to inquire about services, tell them what they have to offer and sign them up!!  Well, I have been in sales and management and if the money sounds right and the hours sound ok and they offer me the job - good bye mama.........now I thought I might tell nmom that I am looking since we have established we are at an impass at work and that I cannot work with her.  When something like this has come up before, she freaked and did something..............well, one time (after my divorce) I told her I needed another job because I didn't make enough money (she would supplement me each month but wanted to know exactly what I spent the money on - I said, no......)  I went to real estate school - well, she doubled my salary!!  She figured if they were paying me and my ex a certain amount of money to support my family and he really didn't do anything, then why couldn't they still support my family?  So she freaked and doubled my salary.  Maybe she will freak and back off - OR - she will give me some money......................but rationally I can tell her that we are talking about selling so why wouldn't I look for a job??  AND the business could use my salary..............