Newbie

[phoenix]

ALL POSTS DELETED BY PHOENIX IN THIS THREAD.

I'M NOT WASTING MY WORDS.

[Anonymous]

phoenix wrote:
My purpose for not wanting to continue discussing this with you is that I don't care to engage in circular conversations. You seem uninterested in looking further into my - and others- previous posts.

You are consumate at shifting blame.


I wish you no harm. There is just nothing further to say .

Phoenix

Reposted by Phoenix [/b][/size]

!!!!!!!amen!!!!!! it's all circular and so much is being posted by same person with different user name.so easy to see patterns both in attitude and writing.me too I am not going to involve anymore.she only keeps trying to draw peoples into a never ending web of frustrate hurt and anger that is her own and goes very very deep in her.she could go on for lifetime because it is what feeds something in her right now.instead of to deal with fears and hurts in the good way she uses manipulations and control and anger, and the circular way of relating is the only way that keeps drawing peoples to back to her, to feel her need to relate this way.
if we all go complete quiet on this topic she will have no more power.no more circles.

me too I don't wish bad things for her but for me its also enough waste and time for square box with corners that end things!

[Somebody]

No chance to post until now.

I stated:  "I'd like to be your friend too, Pheonix, but that can't happen until you stop being angry with me" and then I posted the "woops..." post to correct this statement by saying until you "stop...etc."  I guess I thought you would understand that I was simply adding to that sentence.  My mistake, sorry about that.

These are indeed Pheonix's choices.  I cannot make them for him/her.  I am not making a demand but rather a suggestion and actually an warm invitation to Pheonix, who seems really angry with me.  Perhaps, because of past experiences, this type of response is so foreign to Pheonix, this not reacting to his/her anger, but rather offering my hand, is confusing.  Maybe I'm completely off there.  I'm sorry Pheonix, I meant only to offer an opportunity.

I'm finding a great circle of angry comments.  That's for sure.  I do understand.  We have all been abused and anger is one of the strongest feelings produced.  I no longer feel any anger toward many who have abused me in the past.  I do take responsibility for expressing my anger toward my n-sis, in my original post.  I feel much more for her than just anger though.  I'm having a hard time dealing with those feelings because her behaviours continue.  She's definately not the only one I feel anger toward sometimes.

I read on a thread on this board that someone's n-family member sent someone a card (can't remember the person's name- sorry).  The person was upset, and I think angry, about the card (I think it was an anniversary card) and the idea gathered was that the n-family member sent the card to appease their own guilt (the n-family member's guilt).

My immediate thought was- is that not a good thing?  Is it possible the n-family member sent the card to prevent hurt which would then make the n-family feel guilty?  Can this be taken as a sign that the n-family, in this one instance, is trying to prevent hurt and do something nice (for a change?).  Does it show that the n-family member does feel guilty about stuff sometimes.  Surely every action an n makes isn't preplanned and meant to inject negativity?  Could many of the negative n behaviours be habit??  And could this show an attempt to act differently??

I didn't post my thoughts/questions because I predicted the response might be that I am only empathizing with the n-family member.

But indeed, my point in posting would have been to ask us to consider other possible motives of this person's behaviour and to try to help someone (who's name I can't remember just now) to refrain from going into anger-mode, when there may have been a chance to see the behaviour as positive.  I didn't want to open a new can of worms on some other thread.  

Because motive is deemed known before many questions are asked, it is like walking on eggshells here.  I don't mean to alarm anyone by saying that.

I can easily put all the angry things said to me here on this thread, in the waste disposal basket upstairs and move forward.  I am quite willing to do that for a couple of reasons.

1.  Because I know we all do stuff sometimes that isn't exactly perfect.

and

2. Because there is still an opportunity for us to communicate with eachother and learn from eachother.

I hope you are all having a lovely evening anyway.  I know life can be pretty rough but it is short.  My best offer is on the table.

[phoenix]

[phoenix]

[Somebody]

Pheonix, are you thinking that Portia wrote the above post?

That is not true.  I have never been to this board before (me, Somebody).

Please believe that.

I don't know what else to say.

I am sorry, Portia, that you are being blamed for something you didn't do (and I'm not sure what that is anyhow).

Pheonix, I could have left out the info in my first post but I didn't do that because I wanted to just be honest.  I did not start this thread to create chaos.  This really happened in my family and I am a real person.  I just needed to speak anonamously (I know I spelled that wrong) and that is all.  I felt voiceless or what I understood that to mean.

Please believe me.

[Somebody]

Awww well.  At least these outbursts are not having the same effect as previously.  That's a big improvement.

People are really quite interesting.  I agree with Portia on that.  I do feel compassion for those who are suffering such a lack of trust that they are unable to believe in small bits of kindness.  There is no reason for Pheonix to trust me and I understand that too.  The only reason I can think of is the fact that I posted the truth (not all of the details) of what happened in my family to begin with.  Rather than this being seen as such, it seems to have caused the most upset.

I have a belief that most people are good and trying to behave well.
Even though I grew up in a "house of horrors", I somehow managed to keep this belief alive within my being.  I still believe it.  That's my choice.

I have met many, many people in my life.  So many of them have been a blessing and I have had many deep, long lasting friendships with some of them.  I have some very long-time friends that know nothing of what I've told here.  There's a good chance they would understand and be supportive, after knowing me and the kind of person I am for so many years.  I just haven't said anything, mainly because I just want to go out for a bit of socialization once in awhile with people who have no knowledge of what happened in my family, and partly because I don't want to face the possibility of being rejected.  I really enjoy those friends.

I am very thankful for these things and more.

What I find so difficult to understand about n-ish behaviour is the extreme rampaging that occurs when things just don't go their way.  It's a bit like a spoiled child (or what people call- a spoiled child) isn't it?

It's as if it can't be prevented.  I know very little about n-ism and there is a lot to learn.  It's really hard for me to accept that they "can't" change.  That's a tough one for me because of what I have learned of behaviour, in general, and found to be of use in my life.

Sweet dreams everyone.  I hope tomorrow is a great day for you all.

[Somebody]

Good Morning!

I heard something I thought was rather nice on the radio this morning:

"You're not getting older, you just need re-potting".

What a wonderful thought, really.  Yes, we just need fresh soil, extra room to spread our roots, as we age.  So our roots can get thicker and reach down deeper, hold us steady, get the H2O we need.  That refreshment will likely liven us up and green up our leaves a bit.  It would help us be the most solid people we could be and grow a little, on our way out.

A person I spoke with yesterday used to work as a lumber-jack where the huge, massive, 6 foot diameter trees grow, on this continent (spelling?).  He was very interesting to speak with.  I had no idea that such trees still exhist on this piece of earth.  Trees such as those used by different tribes to carve, or burn out, into cannoes.  I asked him how long it would take for a tree to get that big?  "Oh, probably 2, maybe 300 years", he said.

Wow!!! That's a long time.  Think of the length and strength of those roots!!  Imagine standing beside such a tree.  How very awesome that must be!  "How much would it cost to buy such a tree?".  He couldn't say but it would be a lot of money.  Yes, such a tree is of great value.  Such a shame that we are not allowing the trees we now plant to grow to such a size.  This just isn't feasible to supply society's lumber needs.

Still, the idea of re-potting ourselves as we age, sounds like a step in the right direction.

Enjoy your day people.

[Somebody]

I will put any comment that may be taken the wrong way here (when I am lucky enough to recognize that it might and otherwise, if I miss doing that, I appologize in advance for not becoming aware of it).

I just read P's post to CJ (just looking at a few posts on the board and came across it).  I felt so very sad for you P when I read what you said about not feeling respected at home and about you only feeling a biological connection to your mother.

That bites P.  That is so hurtful to you and it's no wonder you don't trust "love" or that you suspect something underhanded when people offer you what you may interpret as some kind of false love (if that sentence makes any sence).

I'm not trying to center out anyone.  This is probably something (I would bet) that many people here are dealing with.  Not being respected at home.  No real connection to their mother.  These things hurt.

I am sorry for that hurt and I am so sorry that any who have been treated in this way are still suffering from it.  I managed to love my mother even though she did behave very badly, some of the time.  I think my sis hated my mother.  Never really felt connected to her and felt that same lack of respect as a child (not that I didn't feel it- I just ignored it).  She lived there a lot longer than I did.

It's not that I've never understood these things before.  It's just that I don't know what to do to help.  How to help her?  I just took her bs for years and years and years and tried to be patient and probably said the wrong things sometimes.  I knew she had a big problem telling the truth and she even confided in me that she "can't" control it.  I didn't know what to say.  I told her I might not be the best therapist and that it would help her the most to find a someone to speak with who was knowledgable in dealing with abuse issues etc.  She never did that, as far as I know.

I never confronted her about anything until a short while back and then................holy macaroni!!!  What a tantrum!
What a freak out!!  That's when her real, total and completely demented behaviour accelerated.  How dare I stand up to her!  How dare I refuse her demands!  I "owed" her so much! (?????)   She ranted and raved and flipped all around and I just kept thinking:  "I wish you would cool it".

I feel real serious anger toward her sometimes but then, I feel guilty for feeling that anger.  Then I feel sadness for a poor, lost soul who never believed her mother loved her and couldn't see that her mother was just "sick" from being tortured.  That's certainly not my sis's fault, that she couldn't see this.  Or maybe she could see it but her hate was just so solidified, she thought it could never be purged.  Still "can't" be.  I don't know.

I don't know about other people's mothers but I saw what mine went through and it was truly hell.  For some strange reason I knew this from a small child.  I used to pray:

"Dear God.  Please help my dad to behave better".

That might sound pretty sad but really, when I think about it, I just feel satisfied that I somehow did the right thing by not hating my mother and by not losing hope in the possiblity that my father could behave better.
I would feel angry towards them both sometimes, but I always managed to have that compassion in the end.

My request was a bit off.  God doesn't control our behaviour.  We do.

[Portia]

Hi Somebody. Thank you for saying you felt sad for me. Can I clarify what I meant about the love part? The special connection she feels, I think, is biological. Or maybe it isn't at all. It’s probably mixed up with her past, her image of herself, because I think she doesn’t really see us as separate people. She thinks I think the same way as her, that I’ll make the same ‘mistakes’ in my life etc etc. She doesn’t try to understand any part of who I am. I guess she ‘can’t’. Whether that personality disordered ‘can’t’ is out of choice on her part, or because her brain is wired that way and the neural connections aren’t there – I don’t know. Her lack of empathy, her lack of any interest even in me, is quite incredible, to me.

But that’s her feeling towards me, not my feelings towards her. Children love unconditionally for their own survival, don’t they? Can I love her unconditionally as an adult now, seeing her for who she really is? As a victim, a human? I don’t know yet. I don’t have enough information. I thought the other night about writing a two-column list: things he said or did that were good, things she said or did that were good. By ‘good’ I mean perceived as good by me, then or now. I found things for him, I’m struggling for her. I’ll keep trying.

I don’t believe that anyone is born evil. But I believe that people do make choices, if they’re not mentally incapable of making choices. And therein lies another question. Without more information, I guess I have ‘intention’ to go on. And I need to think about a whole lot more. I don’t know what I feel towards her. I feel sad for her. I wish she could be happier, more content than she appears to be. I don’t know, she’s my mother, I feel a lot more than a biological connection, but I feel it’s important to keep those feelings inside me, own them, and not attribute them to her feelings for me. I guess love comes with understanding. I will try to understand more. But doing it hurts, and that’s okay.

I do trust love. I trust CG. She is my Board friend, whatever I have said to the contrary before. I am wary of people and I have buttons. A certain level of healthy scepticism is okay too I think. I’m just learning to express things right now. P

[Somebody]

I see what you're saying P and you're doing a good job of it.

It only shows how easy it is to misinterpret words, doesn't it?
(my misinterpretation, I mean).

To me, if a person can think, then they are "capable" of making choices.
Even those with very little brain function, "can" make their wants and needs known, by various ways of communicating, and are thus trying to show the choice they have--to have that need met.  I have cared for some with little function and seen this to be true.

Your mom, has not given you the correct messages, used the right words, done the things you needed to help you feel her love.  Could she indeed  love you but be unskilled, unlearned, not aware-- in displaying and communicating that love?  Doesn't know how because she never learned?

Could she have the "fear" that you will repeat the mistakes she made in her life, but have no knowledge of that fear, no awareness of what she is doing because of that fear?  Could her lack of interest in you be due to her complete unhappiness in herself and her feelings of total loss of how to fix that, and could she not even realize that she is not interested in you because of her own "mess"?

The thing about the word "victim" to me is that it implies we have no control over events.  Does she even realize that she does have control over her own thinking and that she could make changes and decisions to improve herself, if she made up her mind to?

I am just stuck in the idea that we do have a lot more control than we give ourselves credit for, in many cases but ofcourse, not all.

I'm glad to hear you say that children love their parents unconditionally (and I wonder how easy is it for you to say - I love her)?  Maybe it's really easy, I don't know how you really feel or if you express that to her.

Loving her doesn't mean accepting her inappropriate behaviour.

It just means, as you say, you have understanding and hopefully, compassion for her, that your love is unconditional from you to her.
That you love her, regardless of how she behaved.  Not that you liked the way she behaved.

She is just a person, P.  She probably behaved very badly in many ways toward you too and I'm not, in any way, minimizing that.  But her behaviour may be a symptom, not necessarily, what's in her heart.

I hope I have not offended you in any way by relaying my thoughts on this.  I certainly do not have that intention.

Hope your day is a great one!  I better get cracking!!!

[Bevy]

The decription of events in your life is very powerful and moving. The events would overwhelm the staunchest person. You have shown amazing loyalty to everyone involved inspite of their raging and grief stricken behaviour.
I work with sexually abused children quite often ( for many years) and I have seen over and over again that the child who is abused does not want to lose the abusive parent forever or cause the family to break up but instead wants the abuse to stop. They usually feel bad about themselves rather that blaming the offender.
Finding out about sexual abuse is like dropping a bomb in a family and it takes years for it to be worked through. Have their been any family sessions where the underlying issues can be looked at?
One thing for sure is that these problems could be helped by a very good therapist who understands group issues and process. Trying to fix this family yourself is impossible. This is too big a job.
Take care of yourself and put the focus of healing on yourself.This chaotic nightmare is not your fault and you need to let the other grownups find their own way. You aren't to blame for all of their reactions.
You sound as if you have remained soft and receptive and willing to find solutions. It will take awhile before anyone else can be there with you. The story isn't over yet. Meanwhile take care of yourself and focus on your own healing.
love
b.

[Hopalong]

Hi Bevy--
You may not have realized that you were responding to a thread from 2004...?

Hopalong