Author Topic: Pragmatism with self lost?  (Read 1404 times)

WRITE

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Pragmatism with self lost?
« on: November 21, 2006, 10:22:46 AM »
This jumped out at me from another thread earlier

I think if you were to read it as though it were coming from one of us, you would know what to do next.

I so often know what to do if it's not about me which turns to paralysis and anxiety when it's myself- even to practicalities like making myself late and forgetting to eat....

Maybe this is something we have to be firm about and address, this lack of pragmatism when it applies to us?

Wonder where it comes from?

Stormchild

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Re: Pragmatism with self lost?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2006, 10:39:23 AM »
co-dependence... if we grew up in an N, or abusive, or neglectful, or alcoholic, or Domestic Violence household, we were trained, by abusers, to be prey, for abusers.

Sometimes it's indirect but sometimes it is direct: "don't be selfish" = never think of your own needs; "always put others first" = always put your abuser first; and so forth.

Prey is easier to prey on when it doesn't take care of itself, doesn't know how to recognize predators, etc. This kind of programming makes it very hard to figure out how to solve our own problems. Keeps us dependent.... on abusers... to solve problems for us.

my trick is to imagine that my best friend is telling me about the problem and asking me for my thoughts... i can almost always come up with something then, even if I've been stalled trying to figure it out directly for me.

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penelope

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Re: Pragmatism with self lost?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2006, 11:41:57 AM »
hi write and stormchild,

We are trained to accept phrases such as the following without question:

Why are you being so negative?

Why are you doing this to me?

Well, I guess I can't do anything right.

I give up, you're just never going to be happy.

If I did something...I'm sorry

I probably said something like that...

I'm sorry - BUT...

You're just being selfish


Which are (sad) attempts to squash our [often feeble] voices.

As if stating our needs, wishes, and desires is an affront to the other person, who is used to us being so flexible and prefers it that way.  The alternative is hard work.  You have to put the other person first half the time.

I think what we need to do is develop the instinctive reflexes to these kind of responses, that other already healthy people with strong boundaries have.  Once we start practicing those correct response to the above - which are actually tests of our endurance and love of self -  that's when we'll start feeling our true selves emerge, and stop feeling so lost.  Too often I abandon self for other, not recognizing it doesn't have to be an either/or situation.  When I stand up for self, I'm not sacrificing other.

It's so hard to practice this consistently, though.  We're going against all we've been taught/trained to be.

love,
bean
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 11:45:53 AM by penelope »

penelope

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Re: Pragmatism with self lost?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2006, 11:54:14 AM »
here's some appropriate responses to the following:


-------------------------
Why are you being so negative?  - I'm sorry it feels negative to you when I point out things I don't like.  I guess there isn't a positive way to do that.

Why are you doing this to me?   - doing what?  [wait for explanation - often a misperceived notion that we're "just trying to control" - often a transference of mother stuff.  Then, give your real intention, such as]  I'm explaining why what you're doing hurts me, in hopes you can change it so I'll feel more comfortable around you

Well, I guess I can't do anything right.   -  Do you feel criticized?

I give up, you're just never going to be happy - Do you feel frustrated?  Please don't say you're giving up on us, it hurts me when you say that.

If I did something...I'm sorry -  There's no "If" about it - I'm telling you that you did do it and I felt ______ when that happened

I probably said something like that...  There's no "probably" to it - I'm saying it happened and it hurt me

I'm sorry - BUT...  - I wish your apology didn't include a "but" as it makes me feel unheard.

You're just being selfish - It's very important to me to take care of my needs too.  I feel it's a sign I love myself as much as you, when I let you know what my needs are, and ask you to respect them
---------------------------


too harsh?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2006, 11:57:11 AM by penelope »

Brigid

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Re: Pragmatism with self lost?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2006, 01:34:18 PM »
Write and Pb,
I decided a couple of weeks ago that I needed to start seeing my T again.  I have been struggling with issues regarding my relationship with my b/f and our differing views on where we go from here and how long do we wait to decide that.  I knew that my anxiety about the whole issue was beginning to affect the relationship and my own sense of self, so I knew it was time to get help.

When I met with my T last week and told him how I was feeling about things, he could really sense my frustration and impatience with the whole situation.  Even though he in no way thinks I am being unreasonable in my impatience, he does see that my growing frustration and testiness will accomplish nothing.  If my goal is to have a long-term relationship with this man, I need to demonstrate that I am a loving woman who could improve his life by blending it with mine, not push him into making a decision he's not ready to make, or give him a good reason to walk away by throwing out ultimatums.  However, that does not mean that he gets a free pass to string me along as long as he chooses.  I have to keep some control of my own destiny by giving myself some kind of end point where I lovingly let him go, so we can both go on to pursue what we actually want from a partner.

Since that first appointment last week, I have gone to both extremes in conversations with my bf regarding our future.  The first one was me still expressing my frustrations and even a little anger at his reluctance to discuss our future if there is one--with him responding with his own testiness at my pushing and telling me it will only push him further away, not bring him closer.  I did exactly what my T told me not to, and got exactly the results he said I would.

A few days later and after further reflection on what I discussed with my T, we had a second conversation.  I started by telling him that he should not feel at all threatened by my returning to therapy.  Obviously, the relationship would be discussed, but it was much more about me and what I need to do than about bashing him or finding ways to manipulate him.  Quite the opposite, in fact.  He thanked me for that clarification. 

I then went on to tell him--and I do believe this with all my heart--that he and I share something very special.  We have a relationship that most couples would kill to have, with a bond and chemistry that is rare indeed.  That's not just my interpretation either.  People around us, including complete strangers, comment on it all the time when they see us together.  The spark that was there from our first meeting has only gotten stronger and brighter as time has gone on.  I told him that I know I cannot force him to feel the same way about a permanent relationship that I do at this moment, but hopefully we could come to that within a time frame that is fair to both of us.  He responded by telling me how much he loves me and does believe that it will all work out as we want it to and he also believes that we share a very special bond that would only grow stronger with time.

I guess my point in sharing this is that there are right and not-so-right ways of dealing with issues within any kind of relationship.  I know that when dealing with n personalities, all rules go out the window, and for those of us raised by them, we didn't necessarily learn the right ways.  But I saw the results of presenting my feelings in 2 different manners with very different results. I can already sense the benefits of being back in therapy--my anxiety has decreased and I feel more in control of the feelings which are driving that anxiety.

Brigid