Comparison to a 6-Year-Old

[gratitude28]

Forgive me if this has been posted before... It's one of those things I go back to so often that I thought it might be worth sharing. Joanna Ashmum wrote a nice, simple-to-understand piece about Narcissism, and this how she explain the N's behavior... as being like that of a 6-year old. It fits our household to a "T."

"Six can, oh so often, be expansive and out-of-bounds, contrary, violent, hard...to live with."(p. 4)

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 "Your typical Six-year-old is a paradoxical little person, and bipolarity is the name of the game. Whatever he does, he does the opposite just as readily. In fact, sometimes the choice of some certain object or course of action immediately triggers an overpowering need for its opposite." (p. 1, the first paragraph of the book) [Emphasis in original]
 "Six's reversals are truly something to be reckoned with." (p. 2)
 "I love you" rapidly changes to "I hate you." (p. 2, 6)
 stubborn and can't make up mind (p. 2)

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 "The child is now the center of his own universe." (p. 2, 15) [Emphasis in original]
 delighted by any silly thing that calls attention to himself; may do silly, show-offy things to call attention to himself when he feels neglected or shut out (pp. 71-72)

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 arrogant (p. 7)
 self-important ("extremely aware of the importance of being Six") (p. 22)
 demands rather than asks (twice on p. 6, 16)
 thinks own way is always right (p. 7)
 once started, will stick to a course of bad behavior or bad judgment regardless of the inevitability of being punished for it (p. 7)
 asks to be flattered and praised as "good," even ("rather sadly and touchingly") following his worst behavior (p. 6)

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 can't accept criticism (p. 7)
 feelings are hurt over very small criticisms, comments, failures (p. 6)
 "He is so extremely anxious to do well, to be the best, to be loved and praised, that any failure is very hard for him." (p. 6)

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 wants to win every time (p. 4, 21, 45)
 poor sport, can't stand to lose (p. 7, 16)
 argumentative and quarrelsome (p. 21)
 defiant, pert, fresh, snippy (p. 6, 17)
 competitive, combative (p. 20)
 belligerent, verbally and physically aggressive (p. 21)
 threatens, calls names, gets physically violent (p. 21)
 violent temper tantrums may require physical restraint because of striking out (p. 29)
 jealous, envious (p. 7, 21)

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 to make sure of winning, will cheat or make up own rules (pp. 21-22, 45)
 complains that others are cheating and not following the rules (p. 45)
 some are very cruel to younger children (p. 22)
 does not always tell the truth (p. 16)
 will not admit to wrongdoing (p. 41) [Note: A technique is given for getting the facts out of kids that also works with narcissists: instead of asking if they did it, ask how they did it.]
 goodness means the things explicitly required or allowed by parents or other authority figures; badness means the things explicitly disapproved of or forbidden (p. 66)

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 little forgiveness (p. 22)
 very critical of others' conduct (p. 22)
 expects friendships to be resumed immediately following tremendous complaint and conflict (p. 22)

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 wants to boss (p. 21)
 "Many children think their father knows everything -- even what goes on at home while he is at work."(p. 16)
 thinks his teacher knows the best and only right way of doing things; may not know which rules to follow when school rules differ from home rules (p. 18)

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 "highly undifferentiated -- everything is everywhere" (p. 7)
 can't always tell the difference between "yours" and "mine," and so often steals (pp. 39-41)

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 "random and unconstructive expenditure of energy" (p. 31)
 more interested in merely handling or using tools than in what is accomplished with them (pp. 53-54)
 less interested in actual final products than in whatever he may be doing at the moment(p. 56)

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 "Sixes love to dress up and pretend they are somebody else...." (p. 49)

[Hopalong]

Hi Joy,
My NexH was the same...he went into paroxyms over Christmas, acting babyish to the point that he took the pleasure out of it for my D, who was an actual child.

Bleaaahhhh.
Sacred music, one candle lit, peace on earth.

Hops

[CB123]

edit

[Gaining Strength]

Boy - thanks.  This sure helps me understand my almost 6 year old.  I have harboured these secret fears that he
inherited N traits.  But the worst part is that I find myself feelling so worn down  - triggering the same anxiety - as my N father and
his BPD father did.  I am working hard not to react negatively and yet to draw reasonable boundaries.

You can't imagine how helpful it is to read a description of my child that fits to a tee a description of a 6 year old.  I am beginning to regain my sanity almost immediately. - Gaining Strength

[penelope]

beth,

ICK!  The parallels to my N mother are shocking!  (and I'm OK with that).  Thanks for the reminder.

bean

[axa]

I agree with the description of the six year old, even though in some ways I think it is younger.  What is scary is I see myself acting out as the six year old also.  I am trying very hard to focus on my behaviour and my pathology rather than the Ns.  My underlying problem is that I have some deep seated belief that through another I will become whole.  I have worked and worked on this for years and still I find myself going back tothe same old pattern.

I am very disappointed but not angry with myself which is progress.  I sooo want to be rescued and that is it in a nutshell.  i know I need to rescue myself but have such difficulties with that.

Great to read the posts here, very comforting and hopeful.

axa

[Gaining Strength]

I sooo want to be rescued and that is it in a nutshell.  i know I need to rescue myself but have such difficulties with that.

Axa - me too!!!   I am just beginning to get somewhere with this.  My progress is so new that I cannot yet articulate it.  I don't know if it is coming from deliberate thought or as a result of progressive healing.  But I have come to believe, after years of experiencing this in different ways, that after I become aware of something that needs to change (come out of denial) that somehow it does begin to resolve.  I don't understand it but I have experienced it. 

I want to talk more about this rescue issue as it is my biggest right now but I am cooking and gettting ready.  I hope to come back
to it later.  Maybe we could start a whole new thead on "rescue".

Gaining Strength

[reallyME]

>>>>>>>>"Six can, oh so often, be expansive and out-of-bounds, contrary, violent, hard...to live with."(p. 4)

YEP and would prefer that I didnt have to live with her.  The house is STRESS-FREE when she is not here.  She needs to move out asap, and has informed me that she is working on doing just that! woo hoo!  I love her, but I do not want her living in the same environment as her sisters and I.  WE LONG FOR OUR PEACE TO RETURN, and we know it won't be, till she is OUT!

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 >>>>>>>"Your typical Six-year-old is a paradoxical little person, and bipolarity is the name of the game. Whatever he does, he does the opposite just as readily.

Last night, on the way into Wal-Mart, Anna was ranting and laughing about how irritating it was to bake pies for 7 hours at my sister-in-law's house, while my sister in law just sat there, watching commenting and making Anna do all the work.  Anna was soooooooo loud that half of Wally World's parking lot could have heard her laughing manically about it all.  By the time Anna, Randi, Amber and I were walking to the car to go home, Anna was telling everyone, "Just SHUT UP!  I have a headache.  I MEAN it!"  When we got to the car, Anna mandated that we would have 5 minutes of QUIET time, so she was not stressed out more.  I had no problem with this (I pick my battles with this child).  So, Randi and I and Anna were all being quiet, but, expecting a social 7 year old, Amber to hush, was nearly impossible, and poor AMber got the brunt of Anna's WRATH, with me yelling at Anna to leave her alone, for the next however minutes went by, till husband got to the car.



>>> "I love you" rapidly changes to "I hate you." (p. 2, 6)

Yes, Anna was the main one who pulled this as a young child.  "I HATE YOU MOMMY!"  My response, "I'm sorry you feel that way, but I love you."

 >>>stubborn and can't make up mind (p. 2)

She has the stubborn part, but no problem really making up HER mind, since life revolves around everything SHE wants.

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 >>>>>"The child is now the center of his own universe." (p. 2, 15) [Emphasis in original]
 delighted by any silly thing that calls attention to himself; may do silly, show-offy things to call attention to himself when he feels neglected or shut out (pp. 71-72)


Anna will batt her eyelashes at you, dresses in skin-tight clothes, and even bragged to me the other day about how a guy at her school was flirting with her from his truck, right before he pulled a gun on some students and the police arrived.

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 >>>>>>>arrogant (p. 7)
 self-important ("extremely aware of the importance of being Six") (p. 22)


YES, but more aware of the importance of being "ANNA"

 >>>demands rather than asks (twice on p. 6, 16)


of course.  She feels totally ENTITLED about everything she wants.

 >>>>thinks own way is always right (p. 7)

YES
 

>>>once started, will stick to a course of bad behavior or bad judgment regardless of the inevitability of being punished for it (p. 7)

Oh, she has no fear of punishment from me.  She will say "I ain't afraid of you.  I can take ya!"  The reason for this is that her father will NOT step in to demand that she respects me.  She is bigger than I am too, so unless I wanted to truly HURT her, I'm not one to fight physically.
 
>>>asks to be flattered and praised as "good," even ("rather sadly and touchingly") following his worst behavior (p. 6)


hah ha...ASKS TO BE FLATTERED?  She assumes she is beautiful and wonderful and KNOWS everyone thinks so.
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>>>>>> can't accept criticism (p. 7)

WHO WOULD EVEN DARRRRRRRRRRE to criticize HER?

 >>>feelings are hurt over very small criticisms, comments, failures (p. 6)

Oh, she does NOT like to fail, especially in school


 >>>"He is so extremely anxious to do well, to be the best, to be loved and praised, that any failure is very hard for him." (p. 6)

Nah.  She isn't anxious.  She just KNOWs she's ALL THAT.

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>>> wants to win every time (p. 4, 21, 45)
 poor sport, can't stand to lose (p. 7, 16)


YEP

 >>>argumentative and quarrelsome (p. 21)

YEP
 
>>>defiant, pert, fresh, snippy (p. 6, 17)
 competitive, combative (p. 20)
 belligerent, verbally and physically aggressive (p. 21)


YES
 
>>>threatens, calls names, gets physically violent (p. 21)
 violent temper tantrums may require physical restraint because of striking out (p. 29)


Well, one day, she decided to physically fight me and I finally had enough.  I put my leg behind hers, tripped her and knocked the wind out of her.  She NEVER rose up physically with me again.  (before someone here says "Laura, that was abuse on your part"  I want you to realize that a 3/12 child, who punches, kicks, bites, and then rakes open her older sister's back with a set of keys, is NOT someone to "feel sorry for" when she comes at you!)
 

>>>>jealous, envious (p. 7, 21)

Why would she be?  SHe already believes she can have whatever she wants.

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>>> to make sure of winning, will cheat or make up own rules (pp. 21-22, 45)

She used to do this. NOt sure now if she does

 >>>complains that others are cheating and not following the rules (p. 45)

Oh, it's always someone else that is doing HER wrong.  Of course.

>>> some are very cruel to younger children (p. 22)

Put it this way...when Anna was 3 1/2 years old, if I scolded her for something, she would TURN AND HIT HER OLDER SISTER!  (early signs of projection?)

 >>>does not always tell the truth (p. 16)

Try PATHOLOGICAL LIAR?

 >>>will not admit to wrongdoing (p. 41) [Note: A technique is given for getting the facts out of kids that also works with narcissists: instead of asking if they did it, ask how they did it.]

TRUE and YES, that technique worked for her


>>> goodness means the things explicitly required or allowed by parents or other authority figures; badness means the things explicitly disapproved of or forbidden (p. 66)

Not sure, but most likely

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>>> little forgiveness (p. 22)


Grudge holder sometimes

>>>> very critical of others' conduct (p. 22)

YES, but then if I try and criticize, she rips me apart and says "BE NICE!"
 
>>>expects friendships to be resumed immediately following tremendous complaint and conflict (p. 22)

Don't know about this one, cause to her, she is so full of herself, she feels she doesn't NEED friends.

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 >>>wants to boss (p. 21)


WANTS TO?  Try, IS THE BOSS

 >>>"Many children think their father knows everything -- even what goes on at home while he is at work."(p. 16)

No, she just knows he will NOT correct her, so she walks all over the rest of us.

 >>>thinks his teacher knows the best and only right way of doing things; may not know which rules to follow when school rules differ from home rules (p. 18)

No.  She thinks ANNA KNOWS BEST and NOBODY ELSE DOES.

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>>> "highly undifferentiated -- everything is everywhere" (p. 7)

Not sure what this even means

 >>>can't always tell the difference between "yours" and "mine," and so often steals (pp. 39-41)

YEs, but GOD HELP YOU if you TOUCH her stuff!

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 >>>>>>>"random and unconstructive expenditure of energy" (p. 31)

Don't know

 >>>more interested in merely handling or using tools than in what is accomplished with them (pp. 53-54)

Oh, no.  She uses tools to make "great works of art" so everyone can merely CONFIRM how WONDERFUL she already KNOWS she is.
 
>>>less interested in actual final products than in whatever he may be doing at the moment(p. 56)

Nope, VERY interested in final project, so she has something to boast about

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 >>>"Sixes love to dress up and pretend they are somebody else...." (p. 49)

Dress up, yes.  Pretend?  Heck no...why pretend when she believes everyone wants to look just like HER!

[nickyinstant]

Hi really me.  I get mixed up with names and stories, being, I guess so wrapped up with my own, and finding maybe almost too much to read here.  You sound just like me with my 15 year old - angry -  and we are not alone.  Mine's not N, am pretty certain of that, just dead selfish, and am working that one out.  In some ways its worse!

Its really hard for us as we are recovering from N abuse, and are therefore tired out with neediness, and perhaps dont manage our relationships with our kids as well as we could if we were a)properly alone (unaffected)  or  b)in a normal supportive relationship. 

I got great advice here, some conflicting, but you know what?  i am conflicting, its human, some days I want to fight the case and others I dint.  i want to chill, cant be a**ed with the drama.

Am all over the place I guess, sometimes I freak and sometimes I under react.  But one thing am realising is that I been tougher with my kids than i was with their father who treated me like a t**t....but she's a kid.  its kind of been her job to take advantage of me.  And maybe my lack of consistency is a problem. And why would she not keep pushing the boundaries?  Diff is that I do and will love her for EVER its my job, unlike with her father. 

I think it was Penny who took the view that its not my job to turn her out to the world fully trained, in many ways, we have to let the world train them too.  At just 17, she has a lot of world to face.  My current philosophy is that i have to be who I am, which at the moment is pretty inconsistent (my boundaries do vary, depending on whats happening in my life/my head I cant help that) but am only human, not a machine.  I am realising that the vanity, the self belief etc etc with her are not consistent either, and am sure your 17 yr old is the same, I think we prob all are. 

An old friend (i had to call her after several years as she witnessed an abusive act and i need witnesses for my divorce!)  told me a couple of things about her 8 year old daughter (whom Iv never met) today which she was laughing about - eg she bought them a dog on the internet!!  The things she told me just screamed "child of entitlement" I think my friend thinks its cute - but its not! And that it will go away - but it wont. Where do we draw the lines?  At what point do we say o o? 

With wee ones its so hard, and I am so glad to be past the trauma of those gazillion daily decisions and NEED for reaction/answers- but at 15/16/17 we maybe need to just be us, just be honest, just be fallible and take them a good bit less seriously than we needed to when they were small. In the knowledge that the world is gona be getting them pretty soon and that we are a safe haven and the better they treat us the better that haven is.  i dunno, am just bleatering really.  I want to participate here, and am not always very eloquent or meaningful - pos cos usually drunk!!  But thats another story! 

Keep  being us, keep being real, keep stating the obvious, and move along with life, I think is what I am trying to say.

The 6 year old analogy - IS AN N.  Love it!!! 

Love and thanks to everybody.  Nic xxx

[gratitude28]

GS,
My son went through a phase last year of lying and all kinds of awful behavior. I was really worried too. I ended up looking up his age on the internet and found what to expect and how to deal with it. I think you are doing great with your boy, and I think he is right on target for a 6 year old! Teach him to be thankful for what he has and respectful. Love him... that's all youhave to do!!
For me it's so hard to know what to do sometimes. I buy books, look up what I need to know. Because my mother sure as hell had no idea what she was doing and didn't care... no role model makes it VERY difficult. When my son was little, if he had a tantrum, she would tell me something was wrong with him and maybe he bneeded to go to the doctor.

The whole "6" thing fits my mom amazingly but I am feeling very irritable about her now, so I don't want to address it. I am having a very hard time finding equillibrioum lately.

Love, Beth

[moonlight52]

Hey All ,

Self examination is a difficult endeavor but the gain is freedom .Freedom to live one's life in kindness and to discover ones own true strength.

This examination has led me to see my n spots but self was so damaged I needed to see my worthiness before I could really examine n spots.
You can not give up positive ego this is needed to operate as the person you have always wanted to be.

I watch for these n spots and when I see them they are noted and forgiven .When one has been forgiven I makes it easier to understand others.
Still I can only take on so much and my whole life long I have so wanted to please my parent .Well of course I blew that.
But as I see it nothing I could have done could have done that.....I simply have nothing in my nature that I think my parent would consider of value..
I could be wrong but I can not take that risk at this time after recent events in which I was so greatly demeaned.

Happily my 2 children have their voice and to see them flourish is a comfort.They come to me and to Mr moon with trust and this is a good thing.

Blessings and kind thoughts to you,

moonlight

What I have learned here has saved my family I send my heartfelt soooooooooo deeply felt gratitude for helping me to find true and good sense of self.