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sjkravill

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« on: February 25, 2004, 06:08:35 PM »
This is my first post on any message board ever!  So, please bare with me. As I was explaining my relationship with my husband of a year and a half, a friend suggested I read up on narcissism.  As I have been reading, I find his behavior certainly matches several qualities of NPD.  But I also want to think personality disorders can be measured on a scale or a spectrum. In other words, I think my husband might be mildly narcissistic. Not narcissistic to the extreem. He loves me dearly, and would never hurt me intentionally.  Sometimes he does express empathy, so I think he is capeable...  He is an over all kind hearted man.  He may even respond to my requests 1 in 20 times.  Nonetheless, sometimes his behavior is insidious and sadistic.  (I may be overly sympathetic to him... I am not sure)   I am wondering if there is hope for a relationship with a "mild" narcissist... and still am not sure what degree of this behavior is tolerable.

seeker

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« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2004, 07:11:49 PM »
Hi Sjkravill,

Welcome to the board and congratulations on bravely diving in!  :D

A couple of thoughts:

I join you in thinking about N as a spectrum.  My spectrum ranges from emotional unavailable/blind to irrational to destructive to psychopath.  Also, many PDs coexist with N so all the terms and discussion can get confusing pretty quickly.  Also remember that we all can show signs of N from time to time, so no need to hit the panic button yet.

However, seeing the words "kind-hearted" and "sadistic" in the space of two lines gives me pause.  Again, words can get bandied about.  One person's insensivity is another person's abuse.  In addition to the spectrum of N symptoms, you will also get a wide spectrum of responses here due to our varied experiences!  One of my Ns was incredibly selfish and neglectful, only thought of himself.  That was damaging enough.  My real devil has a full-on PD plus the N.  

I guess I would encourage you to read the articles you find here and read some of the books we recommend on another thread (I'll try to find it to bring it to the top of the message board).  One I would start with first is Emotional Unavailability.

Being married 1.5 years, you both may still be adjusting to your own expectations of what married life would be.  Everyone goes through a reality check.  Is your relationship now much different than when you were dating?  (you don't have to answer me, just food for thought).  It could also just be some kind of gap in communication and/or style.  Are you asking directly for what you need?  (But again, that word "sadistic" bothers me...I don't think anything can be mildly sadistic).  

Hope this helps, brave poster.   :wink: Best, Seeker

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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2004, 11:14:27 PM »
Seeker,
Thank you for your thoughtful response... And for bringing up the list of books.  That will keep me busy for a while!  I have read 6 relationship books, but none of them on Narcissism.... The most helpful for me has been The Solo Partner by Phil Deluca.
A point of clarification... By sadistic I mean he finds humor and pleasure in eliciting an anxious response from me.  He seems to "get" how serious it is for only a moment, but his desire to control is greater than his respect for my firm request that he stop.  I now often have a conditioned response of anxiety in his presence.  I can't sleep through the night in the same bed with him.  He does it all in "play" so to him, I am overreacting.  
This is just the beginning... of course there is emotional unavailability, etc. etc... but he can also change for periods of time, and he can also be very sweet at times.  Reading about the "N" sems to polarize the issue.  
I am just in the process of trying to intellectually wrap my mind around what might be going on and serious the problem is.
Thank you again. sjkravill

Portia

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« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2004, 08:36:58 AM »
Hello sjkravill
May I ask you to think about these questions? You seem to be thinking about your hubby a lot - I wondered if you’d thought about yourself.

These are just questions, maybe they will help clarify why you find yourself here. I tend to be a bit direct on this board, so brace yourself!
What do you want and what do you get out of this marriage? Are you happy? Do you get support for what you want in life (e.g. job/career/wanting children/interests/beliefs)? Do you share an enjoyment of things together? Do you feel secure, wanted, appreciated for who you are?

I ask these for your thoughts only because of your comment “I can't sleep through the night in the same bed with him.” This sent a shiver of recognition through me I’m afraid.

Hope this helps. And welcome! P

Gingerpeach

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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2004, 12:40:37 PM »
Dear Sjkravill,

First, I am very respectful of your courage in posting.  I have lurked for almost two years here and this is only my second post.  

Like Portia, I too got the "shiver of recognition" when you spoke of "not being able to sleep through the night with him in the same bed."  And other things you spoke of sounded so similar to my experience, it overrode my hesitance in posting.  I am glad for you that you are questioning these things after only a short time being married.   I wish that I had paid more attention to the questions that I had, the feelings that I had, and had talked about it with others.

I was married for five years to a man who had very similar behaviors.  When we married, I was a pretty happy-go-lucky kind of person.  I had dear friends and, not perfect, but physical and emotional health.  After five years, I metamorphosed into a fearful, anxious, shell.  Also 30 lbs. heavier! And after only five years.....

This did not happen overnight.  But I do remember one of the first things that I did notice and that was the inability to sleep through the night with him.  I also applaud your recognition of the fact that he finds pleasure in inducing an anxious response in you.  I did not even recognize then that this is what was happening to me.  I only knew something wasn't right.  

So the sleeplessness was the beginning.   And this alone is extremely unhealthy.  After that came the loosening of some teeth due to clenching my jaw in my sleep.  And after that came "carpal elbow syndrome"  from clenching my hands and arms very tightly up close to my body in my sleep.  Very painful. See how all of these were "in my sleep?"

You see, even though during the waking hours I could rationalize many of his behaviors, at night my body was telling me something different.  Be afraid, protect yourself, you are in danger!  That is what these types of  bodily responses were.  These things that he does that make you anxious provoke the "flight or fight" response in your body.  While this is natural and helpul for real emergencies, it is very unhealthy when it occurs often and for extended periods.  Read up on this. This man can make you very sick.

I did finally leave my N.  But not before I was medicated to the hilt to keep the panic attacks at bay.  My sleep time ran out of responses so my body just said, " Hey, wake up girl!  Here are some daytime responses that you can't ignore!!." Have you ever had panic attacks?  Very very yucky !!!!  You're just sure that you are going to die.  I never had those before N either.

So, I finally realized just how toxic he was.  It was like being in a poisonous cloud that I couldn't find my way out  of.  Again, this happened very slowly. One anxious moment at a time.  And even when I could see a bit of what was happening and I would request that he change his behavior, like your husband.....he wouldn't.  

If someone loves you, or even just likes or respects you,  they do not deliberately do things that make you uncomfortable, unhappy or unhealthy, especially after you have informed them that they do.

One quote from an N 'victim' that I read on another site said something about "how Ns install a mental filter in our heads a little at a time until every thing we think or say or do goes through this filter and until we un-install the filter, we are still more or less controlled by them. "  

I left my N almost a year ago (this Saturday will be a year. Yay!!! Hooray!!) and I am still grappling with the filter.  I'm getting better though at recognizing it and shrugging it off, but it's not completely gone yet.

But I am sleeping through the night almost every single night.  Those nights that I don't is because I have an occasionally noisy neighbor!  I only wear the mouth guard sometimes and the "carpal elbow" is completely gone.  I even stopped the anti-axiety meds.  Deep breathing helps when I get twinges (usually after an email from N.)  Would that I never had these things to get cured from!  I am in therapy too, in order to understand why I would stay with someone so harmful.

So, like Portia, I see you thinking and caring about him more than yourself or your health even. This is the filter!!  Think about him first always, not you.  Is not your sleep, your health important?  I fear that this may be only the beginning of more symptoms.

This is why I have posted. I am seeing myself five years ago.  Kind of like rewinding the video, you know? You need to be very aware of what your body is telling you.  It may be telling you things that your mind isn't ready to look at. This is how it was with me.  Finally, I looked with my mind and my heart too.

So Sjkravill, good for you that you are seeing these things and questioning them and more importantly questioning them out loud here at this site!!  That I think was the missing piece for me, the sharing with others. The validation.  Ns like to keep you separated from those that will validate your instincts.  This increases the strength of the filter because there is no offsetting force.  Sjkravill, does he try to control your time and or your contact with friends and family?  

Please stay in touch here Sjkravill,  I truly am worried for you.

Gingerpeach

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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2004, 01:08:38 PM »
sjkravill,

I believe narcissism is a spectrum. And I believe it's possible to be relatively happily married to a "mild" narcissist. I'm married to one. But we need to be in couples therapy all the time. You might try couples therapy (with a good therapist) who will confront the controlling, sadistic parts of your husband. I believe that sadism and kindness coexist in each of us. But our sadism needs to be recognized and controlled. If your husband doesn't recognize his own sadism, in my opinion probably a therapist needs to intervene.

bunny

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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2004, 08:35:54 PM »
Hi Sjkravill, I agree with bunny. Couples counselling is often a good place to start especially if you're unsure if he has NPD and being so newly married. This way he won't feel alienated and you've said he loves you. A spouse with PD is often easily recognised by a good counsellor so I would try to find one who has experience in this area. Unfortunately this means a lot of time on the phone or if you post a general location maybe someone here can recommend somebody. Does your husband have someone in his family that he was mistreated by. Parent or older brother or sister? He may not be a N but he seems to have learned some strange ways of loving and coping in a relationship. Is he like this with his other family members? I suppose I'm asking these questions not for you to answer me but to think about if he relates dysfunctionally with others who he's close to or do you feel it's a secret side just for you especially. Seeker made a some good points about early days in a marriage, and sometimes it's harder for one party than another to get into the deeper intimacy requirements thing. These problems you've already experienced can't afford to be ignored even if you go through a nice loving time at the moment. You're smart in recognising and not ignoring and addressing the problems so early in the game.

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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2004, 09:34:19 PM »
I thank you all for your thoughtful, kind empathetic posts.
I never immagined how cathartic, validating, and helpful a message board community could be.

I hope beyond hope that this is just a "first few years of marriage" problem.  But at the same time, I am exhausted....Trying to buck up.  I don't want my marriage to be over.  I just want a real relationship, to feel mutual honor and respect.

We have tried counseling twice. In order to get him to go I took the blame and said I needed his help.  The first counselor was a Southern man who said I wasn't doing my job in the "wife" role.  We agreed to fire him.
A few months later I persuaded him to try it again.  He was set against it.  We went about 5 times but he complained about it every time, and got mad at me for things I said during counseling.  Finally he had to go on a business trip.  When he came back he never asked about or mentioned counseling.  I decided I was tierd of taking too much of the responsibility.  So, I called the counselor and said we were stopping for now.

That was the first of several limits I have begun to setting.
I will not take full responsibility for our relationship. I will not initiate emotional connection until I feel respected. Nor will I sleep in the same bedroom with him until he learns what respecting my boundries means.
He fluxuates between lashing out, making nice, and feeling hurt.  
I cannot explain it to him anymore.

He can be very sweet.  But sweet or disrespectful I think both behaviors are about his needs....  He was mistreated as a child, by his father, and worshiped by his mother.  Although we don't seem to have much in common, and I don't feel respected,  I just see this hurt child when I look at him.  He does love me, and would be lost without me.  But genius businessman IQ  that he is, I don't think he knows how to conceptualize this, emotionally.  

Wow!  well, thanks for reading and being so kind and helpful.

ps. I am dyslexic so please excuse my terrible spelling!

Anonymous

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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2004, 09:46:48 PM »
Gingerpeach,
Thank you so much for your brave post.   Your experience touched me at the core, and brings me to awareness that I am, for some reason, NOT ready to accept.  (however true) I Have had two panic attacks in my married life (never before "N").  Once while I was driving with him because he has always been critical of my driving.  It was AWFUL!  I was also depressed for the first 6-8 months of our marriage, but both seem to be under control.
 I can't believe other people have experiences so similar to my own.  I thought my situation was  really bizarre.  I am not glad for how you have been hurt, but I am greatful that you have been able to reach out to me.
While I just can't face it now, because of your post, I will be more aware of signs that my health is deterriorating to a point where I seriously have to get out.  I know this constant anxiety is bad for me now, but I just can't loose hope now.
Thankyou.

Anonymous

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« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2004, 10:13:23 PM »
Sjkravill :) Hi

Don't worry about your spelling. Your spelling's fine and this site isn't about spelling it's about lives and in this instance, your life. Since you've tried couples counselling and it hasn't worked and for me not only didn't it work but I finally learned that in my particular set of circumstances it was actually undesirable. It made N too angry to go home with. Have you got a mentor, counsellor or personal therapist. I had to go through a few to find a good personal therapist and it was worth the every failure and all the effort. She's been able to help me see how to break free from the net I was choking in, and see things more objectively that were constricting me and I didn't know it. This might be worth looking into, learning to look after yourself first and foremost is so important even in a marriage. Doesn't mean you love him less it just means you love yourself more equally. You want what's best for yourself too. Not him first. I still love him but I've learnt that I need to protect myself from aspects of him that are unhealthy and uncaring. Sometimes only an outsider can help you here because as wives we are so heavily leaned on so often that it's easy to ignore our own needs and eventually allow subtle and sometimes not so subtle abuse to take root and build as I did. I helped my husband become very successful in business too and it was at a huge cost to myself which I got little thanks for at the end of the day. He's responding. Now I have expectations that my quality of life be good with him, and express them clearly and assertively and have learned ways to not let him off the hook. So from where I've come from this is enormous progress. But I had to get help and not give up and have to keep my own health, happiness, peace and security at the top of the priority list, maybe for a long time before I think I can ever trust him to consider it first.

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Portia

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« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2004, 08:24:16 AM »
...

Gingerpeach

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« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2004, 11:12:16 AM »
Hello Portia,

Thank you so much for your recognition of my "anniversary."  It really IS an important day for me!  And I probably  will not not do anything special tomorrow as I will be packing for a two week holiday with my mother and my cousin.  That is my treat for myself!   I chuckled at your offer to take me out to lunch because we are going to the UK!  Thank you for your good thoughts and I am enjoying your bouquet of flowers in my imagination!

Gingerpeach

Anonymous

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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2004, 01:18:04 PM »
Quote from: Anonymous
I hope beyond hope that this is just a "first few years of marriage" problem.


Unfortunately your husband's behaviors don't sound temporary.


Quote from: Anonymous
We went about 5 times but he complained about it every time, and got mad at me for things I said during counseling.  Finally he had to go on a business trip.  When he came back he never asked about or mentioned counseling.  I decided I was tired of taking too much of the responsibility.  So, I called the counselor and said we were stopping for now.



I think you're giving up too easily. You can bring up to the therapist during the session that your husband will be angry with you afterwards. The therapist will likely offer to talk on the phone to you or your husband between sessions. This marriage needs professional help, from your description of it.

bunny