Why We Had No Voice

[gratitude28]

Hi all,
You no doubt have seen this before, but I found it while we were away from the board and it gave me yet another piece of the puzzle. I'd love to hear any comments, stories, etc relating to this topic.I borrowed the quotes from www.healthyplace.com and our esteemed Dr. Grossman.

They assume their child has to little to say about the world, and what he or she does say is insignificant.

They assume their child has plenty to learn from them, but they have nothing to learn from their child.

They insist the child enter their world to make contact. They don't enter their child's world because it is unimportant.

I am important. You are not.
This is the basic message that narcissistic parents send to their children. Unfortunately, they send it many different ways, verbally and nonverbally, and worse, they never acknowledge the message. They believe, and they want their children (and everyone else) to believe, that they are the most caring people in the world.

I know that in my family we were told:

A parent's relationship (romantic) is more important than anything else family-wise. It must be preserved as the most important part of the family.

We were given plenty of projects, toys and hobbies and should be able to keep ourselves busy.

The ideas we brought home were silly. Stupid if they didn't agree with theirs.

We should praise anything they liked as THE DEFINING good thing to know/do.

Things that people told us or that we learned and repeated to our parents were mostly not believed by them.

If you had a problem, NEVER go to your parents unless it was a last resort. And then expect it to be the end of your world.

If you brought up a deep/bothersome subject, expect to be told you were being silly.

I thank God that I can hear my children and answer their questions... even the bizarre and hard-to-answer ones. And I do learn from my kids... from school facts I have forgotten... to broader concepts. (my 8-year-old asked me what cyber sex was this week... He also wants to know how Angelina and Brad had a baby if they are not married. When I explained sex to him, his eyes grew huge and he said 'Ewww... you and Dad did that TWICE...'). BTW, I only told him after we had explained in every other way possible first

Love to all of you.
Beth

[moonlight52]

I fought hard as a little one to exist at all.

There was inside the house and outside the house .

It was not that I was a puppet on a string I was a no thing.

I was deeply afraid as a child inside the house.

We did not know where to hide .
We lived in terror of child abuse.

It was not a good thing.And only now after 50 years if in a situation demeaning or cruel only now would I have the strength
and self esteem that I would stand up and say something to defend myself only now .

I WOULD ONLY LIKE TO SEE SOME ONE TRY .


DELIBERATE CRUELTY IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.Not then now not ever...........................................

NO ONE IS CRUEL TO ME NOW IT WAS SO LONG AGO THEY SAY ...............................
HOW CAN PEOPLE HURT CHILDREN??????

MOONLIGHT I cry for all the children that are suffering 

[Hopalong]

Cruelty is cowardly, it's the mark of a broken mind.

Moon, even with all that happened to you---you are WHOLE.

When "someone" went to bed at night as a little child, he never in his wildest dreams lay there thinking,
one day I will be the parent of a beautiful, vulnerable child, and I will beat her and shame her and her brother.

But now, now is now. Now is reality.
And at some fatal turnings, he turned toward cruelty because he was too weak to resist that part of himself.

You are STRONG Moon. And your children are so lucky, and their children will never experience what their
beloved grandmother went through.

And you will be there to smile at them, knowing the greatest gift you gave all of them, was the thing you didn't.

love,
Hops

[moonlight52]

YES tis time now that I am strong .......time a  plenty to understand...No "someone " did not plan anything.

And "someone" is not to blame for all and blaming is not a fruitful endeavor so seems sitting in a puddle of pain does not help.

I do understand him  clearly "someone"is not to blame for all......

Bless you Hops my kids do not like it when I am sad .I do playful much better....

I do thank you Hops I am strong enough to understand  that is my true nature.

My mom was never harmed by "someone"They loved each other in a very idealize way it seemed truly they did love each other.

And in those days I guess that kind of behavior (whippings) was common.But it has taken me 50 years to be able to stand up for myself.

Incredible but yet I have worked my way though ......so now is now and like the one who looks down and cries for the one cup which falls over if I only turn around
there are three full cups that shine for me.....

My children are so funny and strong willed and I believe they have there wings yes indeed.They have  such sweetness too...... I just got to let go let go........

now is reality this whole rant has come of a result of a disc my oldest sis sent to me of video of my FOO when we were very young and all was ahead of us.
watching those images from 1964 -1968 brought tears, laughter and so much love for all of us and some anger too yep moon's rant.

I HAVE NOT SEEN THESE IMAGES IN 30 YEARS..........................I was very young in them....My kids thought I was nerdy up until the last I am all of a sudden cool
and some of the last images of me and my dearest twin dancing together to some rock and roll.. He was such a dear boy.


but as I watched those faraway images I could see  love was there as well we looked so good from the outside looking in .......time for me to just let go

AND TURN ONCE AGAIN TO THOSE LITTLE FACES that look to me for love........
If my sis had sent these images any other time but now now after the work done here I might have never found my way.

I guess I feel grateful to be strong enough to watch these sweet images with the delicate softness of the gift of love from my mom and the strength and self esteem learned here
and its good I finally have a glimmer of  this now.

Blessings to all and ever lasting friendship to all
moonlight

[dragonsamm]

While I cannot define my parents as specifically NPD, I can relate to MANY of the messages posted here.  Not only were my brothers and I denied the human right of dignity of personhood, we were given specific messages that we did not deserve that dignity.  Without a single human being to champion our rights, we were left to fend for ourselves, which might explain the closeness we three feel today. 

What I have only recently discovered in myself is the incredible depth of shame that has shadowed my entire life.  I can only believe it was derived from the negativity in my upbringing.  I believe it explains the fact that i can cognitively understand that I am as valuable as every other single soul in the universe, and at the very same time, feel that (actually) there's something wrong with me.  I don't REALLy deserve what everyone else deserves.  Somehow, I am flawed at the core, unfixable, and all I have ever done is try to cover that flaw, let no one else see what I knew to be true.  And even in the face of the very first self-help book i ever read "Healing the Shame that Binds You",15 years ago,  i could not accept how deeply my shame reaches.
It has kept me from reaching my potential in the job market, in my education, even in my personal life.  I see it know. 
The problem remains because I have no clue how to fix this by myself.  the shame is the reason that every self-help book I ever read never rang completely true--because I require another soul to see me as unflawed and reflect that back to me so I can see it too.  I understand that there are others who will tell me all the right stuff.  All of you wonderful people here who are so supportive, my friends, and others.  But it's only a band-aid.  I don't even know if there is a way to clean out the would so it CAN heal. 

I feel the pain you people speak of.  The voicelessness that has been mine.  How do we even begin to heal from these depths??

((((((((((((((((((((everyone))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

dragonsamm

[moonlight52]

Hi dragonsamm ,

Healing is to me feeling and understanding one's life .

I have experienced healing here like no other place.
But it has not come like a lighting bolt bam .

My healing has come by being here on this site coming and reading , getting the knowledge here peeling layers of ick that did not belong to me.
I know what self esteem means for the first time of my life.

Healing is found in the painful experiences and not hiding from them and living in truth .FINDING THAT TRUTH FOR YOURSELF.
Finally I am living in that truth even with a SOME  left to work on I have come so far from that little afraid hurting person I was WHEN I FIRST CAME HERE.

I am able to be of use in caring and being a support to those around me more than ever and for this moment and the understanding of  my life now.
Also being able to be as strong as I am now is something I never dreamed possible.Can be done.
Wishful thinking:   It would be nice if my father could remember how much my mom loved me and repect that...

love to you

moonlight

P.S. I have learned dysfunction can lead to some really cool insights there is always a gift in the problem .If I can accept what was painful in my life and become stronger that lets
me help others .I am getting no end of joy from being a good use in the world to make others laugh is something  humbly I am good at and being a good mom that my girls trust this is also a good thing....I do not wish to harbor ill will but I am human and some times I get triggered (like the disc of my FOO)So my understanding of others has grown and I understand why others do what they do........But finally no one will push me around anymore and I am strong and still have compassion for others.This is good growth humbly I say....

[October]

Scene: dad comes round to my house after my cold water tank overflow has been leaking for around 2 years.  This is something I do not know how to fix, and cannot afford to employ anyone to do.

So finally, yesterday, he came, bearing a part that he had bought en route from the builders merchants.

Here is an excerpt from the conversation:

Dad   Is this system metric or imperial?

Me    Metric

Dad   Because if it is imperial I have got the wrong part

Me    It is metric

Dad   I wasn't sure if it was metric or not, but I thought the house isn't very old, so it is probably metric

Me    Yes it is

Dad   Well, we'll soon find out

Me    It is metric

Dad   If it is imperial we will have to go shopping again

Me    The house is only 17 years old; it is all metric

Dad   I thought it would probably be metric, but if it isn't we'll have to go shopping again.


etc, you get the idea; it went on for at least twice as long as this. A lot of my dad's conversation comprises repeats of what he has already said.  I assume he is not used to being listened to any more than I am.   

And the trick once he has fitted the metric fitting to the metric system, and stopped the leak, is to cultivate a spirit of gratitude, even though to do so means stepping over the huge gulf of invisibility and negativity cast in my direction.

It is not easy, but I am trying.  I must try to learn to be grateful for who and what he is, and not resent who he cannot ever be.  He is just as damaged as I am, and less able to cope with it, because he does not have the same awareness as I do.  It is a very long, very painful journey to learn that awareness, and it is a path he will never be able to follow.  It is not for me to choose, but even if it were, I would not choose to force him to see and become aware of what he is missing.  It would be, I think, too cruel.  It is for me to contain.

So, having no voice is not just a childhood phenomenon, but at least we can be aware of the dynamics when we are older.

[Gaining Strength]

While the site was off, I read Dr. Grossman's page several times over and found a very similar point made.

Exceptional parents grant a child a voice equal to theirs the day that child is born. And they respect that voice as much as they respect their own.  How does a parent provide this gift?  By following three "rules:"

Assume that what your child has to say about the world is just as important as what you have to say. 
Assume that you can learn as much from them as they can from you. 
Enter their world through play, activities, discussions: don't require them to enter yours in order to make contact.

 It certainly supported my experience but equally important it highlighted a significant aspect for me to develope for my childrearing.  While I have focused on the first two - recognizing their value from their absence in my own childhood, I have not even thought of "Entering their world through play,...."  I am so thankful for that concept and am trying to learn to develop that practice.  I wish more teachers would do this. - Gaining Strength

[Gaining Strength]

October

Your conversation with your father so fully mimics ones I have had with mine my whole life.   

I felt so demeaned, so unimportant, so inivisible.  Now I understand why voicelessness is so destructive.

[gratitude28]

Hee hee GS, We must have been reading the same pages at the same time... great minds think alike and all that I read the same stuff many times... Dr. Grossman's very comprehensible words...

October... I know what you mean. I had the same conversations with my mother for YEARS and never knew WHY we kept saying the same things... SHe didn't care what I said... only her opinion was important...

(((((((((((((((((((Moon, dragon, hops ))))))))))))))))))))))))